All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread

CBA · Post #381 » by **CBA** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:13 pm

Paul: I can't imagine how good someone has to play to have a star impact while playing in 50% of 50% of the games. It's not his fault he got injured, but to say he's "played well" - which based on your previous posts, is a high standard - is just factually wrong. If the Clippers were down 3-1, with Paul playing exactly the same, this wouldn't have been "a debate." That's an example of winning bias.

Curry: I could understand using the competition to extol Curry if he was playing near the level of his peers, but he's not. The Memphis defense doesn't wipe away the gap between Harden and Curry.

Lebron: I can argue he has played decently despite the ugliness offensively considering his teammates and the good defense, playmaking and rebounding. Better than the others.

Krodis · Post #382 » by **Krodis** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:17 pm

The extra points in the 4th quarter include a 16 point fourth quarter in Game 2, which they needed to win. That's more than half of those 4th quarter points. 5 more of them were in Game 1, a game that was still very much in doubt until the last couple minutes. He didn't even play the 4th in Game 4, and while some may say that some of the points he scored late in the 3rd were garbage time buckets, they managed to cut the lead down to 19 with a couple minutes left in the 3rd, which seems to me to be still in reach, albeit a long shot.

Harden's stats (both box-score and impact) backed up his case as a Top 2 player all season so I don't understand the sentiment that he was only considered Top 5 because of storyline...

mischievous · Post #383 » by **mischievous** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:18 pm

As it stands right now, my top 5:

Curry: I think he likely has this on lock, even though he's been aubpar by his standards against Memphis. His reg season was historically efficient, had a 28 PER and did all that in 32 mins.

Davis: Had an historically high PER in the regular season, great scoring efficiency etc. Great series against GSW.

CP3/Harden: This one is tough, Harden had a better regular season imo, as i said in my thread i think Harden's stats overstate his impact in these playoffs. The mavs were a joke defensively and a joke period. His stats look good against the Clips, 26 ppg on 66 ts% with 9 assists looks great and all but it's hard to ignore the insane amount of turnovers and his team is getting stomped and he continues to put up a lot of his points in garbage time. He isn't making any noise these games, and just isn't putting his imprint on these games like you'd expect from someone of his caliber. I kept seeing conparisons to a prime Wade or Kobe and although he isn't far off i'm not seeing an agressivness that those guys had. There would be playoff games where theyd put the team on their back and lead them to victory. Harden is a passive scorer, he only took 12 shots last night and 15 the night before. With reddick on him he should be exploding scoring wise.

As for Cp it has to be taken into account his durability, hes missed 2 games these playoffs and has been less than 100% in 2 more. I think he moves ahead of Harden with a great performance in the Wcf and/or finals.

Lebron: His playoffs aren't great at all he's shooting a 48 ts% and 5+ turnovers a game. Hes real lucky this series is tied given his poor play.

Westbrook
Griffin.

CBA · Post #384 » by **CBA** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:19 pm

bondom34 wrote:I'd agree that they're mismatched, but it doesn't mean Harden is playing well either. Just looked up his stats, and through 3 quarters he's averaging 17/8/3 with 5 TOs. In the 4th he's putting up an extra 7.5/1/2 and only .5 TOs, but the game is out of hand and it makes his stat lines look nicer.

This is an awfully lazy analysis. He scored 16 points in the 4th quarter of Game 2. Did he even play in the 4th quarter last night?

Krodis · Post #385 » by **Krodis** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:20 pm

I would argue that no one would actually think that LeBron is playing decently if they were playing against a better offensive team, because they'd be getting blown out and no one would be trying to excuse his shooting performances in that case. The Bulls are a mediocre offensive team that's playing poorly by their standards on top of that. They've score 99, 91, 99, and 84 points. And while certainly LeBron and the Cavs defense has SOMETHING to do with that... I don't buy that either the Cavs or Bulls as they currently stand are all that great...

Post #386 » by **bondom34** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:21 pm

His numbers were no better than CP's really, and Paul wasn't even in the discussion by a lot of people. And even if you want to say he's been good offensively, he's still being lit up by Reddick and AUSTIN RIVERS.

Krodis · Post #387 » by **Krodis** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:26 pm

He isn't even guarding Redick, and Austin Rivers is lighting up more than just Harden...

mischievous · Post #388 » by **mischievous** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:30 pm

CBA wrote:
bondom34 wrote:I'd agree that they're mismatched, but it doesn't mean Harden is playing well either. Just looked up his stats, and through 3 quarters he's averaging 17/8/3 with 5 TOs. In the 4th he's putting up an extra 7.5/1/2 and only .5 TOs, but the game is out of hand and it makes his stat lines look nicer.

This is an awfully lazy analysis. He scored 16 points in the 4th quarter of Game 2. Did he even play in the 4th quarter last night?

I don't think his analyis is lazy at all.

The game 2 is just one game and one that was without Paul and at home. He should be expected to play that way and win a game like that at home.

The last 2 games harden has been mediocre up until the point where his team starts to get blown out. Then when the game is out of reach he put ups more garbage time points, to make his statline better.

I get this idea that some people are just pointing to the boxscore for Harden having good games, and claiming hes playig good without actually watching the games.

Harden has been utterly passive in this series and its just inexcusable.

CBA · Post #389 » by **CBA** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:32 pm

We shouldn't be having hero ball discussions in 2015.

bondom34 wrote:His numbers were no better than CP's really, and Paul wasn't even in the discussion by a lot of people. And even if you want to say he's been good offensively, he's still being lit up by Reddick and AUSTIN RIVERS.

Like Krodis said, Harden hasn't even guarded Reddick. And do you really think Harden turned Rivers from a below 30% 3 point shooter into a 56% 3 point shooter? I don't even think Doc would say his son's hot streak is anything more than good chance at a great time.

Post #390 » by **bondom34** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:32 pm

CBA wrote:
bondom34 wrote:I'd agree that they're mismatched, but it doesn't mean Harden is playing well either. Just looked up his stats, and through 3 quarters he's averaging 17/8/3 with 5 TOs. In the 4th he's putting up an extra 7.5/1/2 and only .5 TOs, but the game is out of hand and it makes his stat lines look nicer.

This is an awfully lazy analysis. He scored 16 points in the 4th quarter of Game 2. Did he even play in the 4th quarter last night?

As said below not lazy at all, I'm not searching very hard and in watching these games to any neutral fan he's passive and showing zero leadership.

CBA · Post #391 » by **CBA** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:39 pm

bondom34 wrote:
CBA wrote:
bondom34 wrote:I'd agree that they're mismatched, but it doesn't mean Harden is playing well either. Just looked up his stats, and through 3 quarters he's averaging 17/8/3 with 5 TOs. In the 4th he's putting up an extra 7.5/1/2 and only .5 TOs, but the game is out of hand and it makes his stat lines look nicer.

This is an awfully lazy analysis. He scored 16 points in the 4th quarter of Game 2. Did he even play in the 4th quarter last night?

As said below not lazy at all, I'm not searching very hard and in watching these games to any neutral fan he's passive and showing zero leadership.

It's okay to admit fault, man. You said he's been running up his numbers when the game is out of reach and used stats in a lazy manner as evidence. You were wrong. Throwing around buzzwords as a defense isn't going to manage to make that more convincing.

Post #392 » by **bondom34** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:43 pm

CBA wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
CBA wrote:
This is an awfully lazy analysis. He scored 16 points in the 4th quarter of Game 2. Did he even play in the 4th quarter last night?

As said below not lazy at all, I'm not searching very hard and in watching these games to any neutral fan he's passive and showing zero leadership.

It's okay to admit fault, man. You said he's been running up his numbers when the game is out of reach and used stats in a lazy manner as evidence. You were wrong. Throwing around buzzwords as a defense isn't going to manage to make that more convincing.

???
So he's not putting up remarkably good 4th numbers after 3 bad ones? I posted the stats above, its not bad for you to admit he's doing it. The fact that its you and one other person here seeing Harden playing better than anyone else that seems to be a bit fake. I don't know what buzzwords I'm using, unless "defense" or "leadership" are buzzwords and not things expected of guys who are, you know, MVP and POY candidates.

CBA · Post #393 » by **CBA** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:47 pm

...Painful.

Looks like we'll leave it there.

Krodis · Post #394 » by **Krodis** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:50 pm

His 4th quarter numbers are only "remarkably good" when you include Game 2... which they won because Harden had a big 4th quarter.

Post #395 » by **bondom34** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:57 pm

Krodis wrote:His 4th quarter numbers are only "remarkably good" when you include Game 2... which they won because Harden had a big 4th quarter.

Again though, against no CP. If we are going to do that, then Curry was good too when Conley was out. If you want to count Harden's game fine, then Curry gets it too.

CBA · Post #396 » by **CBA** » Mon May 11, 2015 6:00 pm

Why in the world wouldn't Curry's game count in the first place?

Why are you comparing Curry's primary defender being out/hurt to Harden and CP3?

cpower · Post #397 » by **cpower** » Mon May 11, 2015 6:02 pm

so who has been the best player in the post season so far? Griffin or Bulter ? any other choices?

Post #398 » by **bondom34** » Mon May 11, 2015 6:05 pm

No, I'm saying that you're saying Harden is playing better than Curry. Harden's best game was when Paul was out. Curry's was when Conley was out. You're willing to give Harden extra credit for his one good game while not giving it to Curry for his. Again, I'll reiterate I'm not a fan of either guy here, but you're flat lying to yourself if you say Harden is playing well. His defense is bad, he's passive, and he's got his share of blame in this series. There is a reason everyone here other than the 2 Harden fans are saying he's played awfully bad basketball. But if you like how he's played, fine by me, he's certainly moving down in my vote.

Post #399 » by **bondom34** » Mon May 11, 2015 6:06 pm

And to the question by cpower, I'd say Griffin, Butler, and CP.

CBA · Post #400 » by **CBA** » Mon May 11, 2015 6:14 pm

bondom34 wrote:You're willing to give Harden extra credit for his one good game while not giving it to Curry for his.

...

Seriously, what?