2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Full 2016 RS + PS RPM & RAPM Updated 6/24*

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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#381 » by Doctor MJ » Wed May 4, 2016 10:42 pm

SideshowBob wrote:It's weird, it almost comes off as some misguided bitterness towards Iggy winning FMVP over Lebron last year due to raw +/- :-?

One of the problems you run into is multicollinearity. If 80% of the time when Draymond Green is on the floor, Stephen Curry is on the floor, there’s a strong suspicion that Curry’s greatness will make Green look good simply because he was on the floor when Curry was draining 35 foot jumpers.

Want a good example how that works? Think back to last year’s Finals. Andre Igoudala won the Finals MVP because he was +62 during the six-game series (while Curry was +55 and averaged 42.5 mpg to Iggy’s 37 mpg).

That beat out LeBron James’ 35.8 ppg, 13.3 rebounds and 8.8 assists, double what Iggy produced in each, the first time in Finals history one player has led both teams in all three categories.

Iggy played a great series and was instrumental in the Warriors win, but there is no way in Hell he should win the MVP over the best single series performance in history. Might as well change the trophy title to “Most Valuable Guy on Winning Team” because that’s what the trophy means now. Thanks Real Plus Minus!


I mean what??


It's funny really this loop of logical death.

You can't use sophisticated stuff because they'll dismiss anything they don't understand.
You can't use simple stuff because they'll fixate on weaknesses fixed by sophisticated stuff.

Someone like this, wherever they choose to act in this way, basically ensures that they cannot learn anything with nuance.

I don't know anything about this guy though. It's entirely possible he's basically a kid desperately trying to be taken seriously by elevating himself above something else.
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#382 » by MyUniBroDavis » Wed May 4, 2016 10:54 pm

SideshowBob wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:My god. This is comically bad. I'm enjoying the fact that Berri and Chaikin are now tied to this amateur. Back when I first joined RealGM I also joined APBRmetrics, and back then it was dominated by guys like them who were insistent you could basically tell everything you needed from box score stats and that +/- stats didn't make any sense.

Fast forward through the years and you see that +/- stats came to not only dominate APBRmetrics, but also the ranks of guys who went on to be hired by NBA teams. Granted I believe Chaikin has done work for NBA teams, but it's astonishing to me that all these years later he still hasn't moved forward even one level of abstraction.

Berri it doesn't surprise me, but then he doesn't understand his own stats despite being an academic leveraging the Ivory Tower of CSU Bakersfield for far more than it's worth.

But still, when I tee off on those guys it's nothing like this writer. How on earth did he become convinced that RAPM was based off RPM? Only way that could happen is if someone was explaining things to him and he was so confused he could even take notes properly.

It's not quite as embarrassing as the first Bleacher Report article I ever read - a guy evaluating the drafting of John Wall by the Wizards by meditating on the close relationship he and Michael Jordan would have...years after Jordan left Washington for Charlotte - but it's mind-blowing to me that any human being exists who would dare write such inflammatory negativity about something they clearly don't have the tools to even read and understand. A writer like this, short of a massive philosophical change coming soon, will probably spend their whole life getting angry about things they don't understand and typing visceral sanctimony for the masses to choke on.


I tried engaging him on RCF, no response yet.

It's weird, it almost comes off as some misguided bitterness towards Iggy winning FMVP over Lebron last year due to raw +/- :-?

One of the problems you run into is multicollinearity. If 80% of the time when Draymond Green is on the floor, Stephen Curry is on the floor, there’s a strong suspicion that Curry’s greatness will make Green look good simply because he was on the floor when Curry was draining 35 foot jumpers.

Want a good example how that works? Think back to last year’s Finals. Andre Igoudala won the Finals MVP because he was +62 during the six-game series (while Curry was +55 and averaged 42.5 mpg to Iggy’s 37 mpg).

That beat out LeBron James’ 35.8 ppg, 13.3 rebounds and 8.8 assists, double what Iggy produced in each, the first time in Finals history one player has led both teams in all three categories.

Iggy played a great series and was instrumental in the Warriors win, but there is no way in Hell he should win the MVP over the best single series performance in history. Might as well change the trophy title to “Most Valuable Guy on Winning Team” because that’s what the trophy means now. Thanks Real Plus Minus!


I mean what??



The hell was that last point he made. I mean normally we say what when someone says something mind blowingly stupid (which it is) but I actually don't know what he is trying to say, how is any of that related to anything?
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#383 » by SideshowBob » Wed May 4, 2016 11:07 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:The hell was that last point he made. I mean normally we say what when someone says something mind blowingly stupid (which it is) but I actually don't know what he is trying to say, how is any of that related to anything?


I have no idea, I think he genuinely has no idea what he's talking about.
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#384 » by colts18 » Wed May 4, 2016 11:48 pm

Draymond Green is +139 so far in 7 playoff games. The record for a whole playoff since 2001 is Kobe Bryant in 2001 with +213 (2015 Green was 4th). That record is definitely within reach. He has a possibly of having a +1,300 RS+PS season. The best non-Draymond Green total is +1,083 from 15 Curry. No non-GSW player has hit +1,000 for RS+PS yet since 2001.
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#385 » by SideshowBob » Thu May 5, 2016 12:02 am

Doctor MJ wrote:


Somewhat encouraging response:

Chris Parker wrote:This is awesome. Thank you so much for responding. I still have issues with it, and I didn't do as good a job as I would like or needed to in explaining it because of some of my own deficiencies both in knowledge and expression. I agree with you in that it is just a stat, and MAY BE not as bad as others. I went a little overboard in trashing it, and I will take points on that. I find it a lot more entertaining to kind of disagree loudly. Be sure I will note more of these things (sorry but sorta like the NYT at the end of a different article). I didn't mean to disrepresent to trash, just find some major issues with how its done, not the least of which being the figuring based on some very small Off-court samples.

My main issue with RAPM is the over-aggregated nature which makes it very hard to know what to make of it, and the concern, given some of its inscrutabililty, that I am not aware of all of the assumptions of the model. Indeed, whenever I see Kevin Love rate very high on defense I know there must be an issue.

I hear what you're saying. I do wonder about Berri's point about the explanation of the future vs. the past. IF he's correct in saying that it doesn't predict the past, isn't there then concern that it's "fitting" the stats? Again, I'm still feeling this out, I'm not statistician. But I do want to understand it better.


This is what he responded to:

SSB wrote:
Spoiler:
Chris - RAPM does not stand for "Real Adjusted Plus Minus", it's "Regularized Adjusted Plus-Minus" or "Ridge-Regressed Adjusted Plus-Minus". So called because it is similar to the basic "Adjusted Plus-Minus" (APM) but uses ridge-regression instead of OLS in order to build the model. The evolution from OLS (APM) to Ridge (RAPM) was in fact to tackle the problem of multicollinearity. I've described the most common versions in the quote at the bottom of this post.

Also, raw +/- (what you're referring to with the Iggy stuff) shouldn't really be taken to mean anything beyond face value. When Andre Igoudala was on the floor in the 2015 Finals, Golden State outscored Cleveland by 62 points. Any conclusion beyond that is the fault of the individual, not the stat, because it very literally says nothing more than that. Did any of the voters actually say that they voted for Iggy over LBJ because of it? Cause if so, that's on THEM, not +/-. (FWIW, I'm in support of James winning it last year).

On RAPM being predictive: it's not just future seasons - it's future games. With RAPM & 50% of the season completed, you can use it to predict the outcome of the remaining 50%, and you will out-predict the results of other stats trying to do the same.

Why does that matter? It matters because it's a better indicator of goodness vs. value - process-based thinking instead of results-based (we often use the same mindset in the financial/investment world when it comes to valuation). If Andre Miller gets randomly hot and is allowed to take 25 shots one game and scores 51, the stats will "explain" him as having been good to X degree, but we know that in a vacuum he is not actually good to X degree, he is only good to Y degree. An explanatory stat will give more weight to X, whereas a predictive stat will likely do better in trying to capture Y.

As for Berri's comments, without getting into his obvious (and understandable) motivations for speaking against +/- in the face of his own stats, it's pretty straightforward to establish the case for scoring margin as being crucial in describing player/team goodness.

A.) Teams score X points and use Y possessions. Teams which, on average, have the best ratio of X:Y (ORTG or offensive efficiency) are typically the best offensive teams, with some caveats (ORB strategy, small-ball, resiliency - does your offense hold up against all teams or do you struggle against better strategies).

B.) Same thought process for defense, teams allow X points and their opponents use Y possessions. The lower the X:Y ratio (DRTG or defensive efficiency), the better the team's defense (with the same caveats). We can multiply the ratios by 100 to get a cleaner looking number, which are BBR's ORTG and DRTG.

C.) Therefore, the best overall teams, generally speaking, are those that have the largest separation between their ORTG/DRTG (GSW and SAS this season). The caveats above still apply - you want to be consistent. A team with +10 differential that plays like a +10 against all teams is better than a +10 team that plays like a +6 against some opponents and +14 against others.

D.) Continuing that line of thought, good players are those who improve their team's scoring margin/efficiency differential. An average player is a net 0. A bad player worsens their team's differential. Similar caveats apply here - consistency is important, but so is versatility/fit. A player who improves bad/average/good teams by 5 points is better than one who improves bad teams by 7, average teams by 5, and good teams by 3 (this means his skills are redundant as your team acquires more talent around him).

E.) Players/opponents are frequently in/out of lineups & games, which means over large time periods (multi-season for APM, >=1 season for RAPM) we can look at the 5on5 matchup +/- differentials of tens of thousands of lineups simultaneously and utilize regression (weighted by possessions played by EACH particular 5on5 matchup) to extract an estimate of each player's impact on their team's scoring margin. There are multiple ways to do this, and we've moved from APM (standard OLS) to RAPM (Ridge-Regression) to Prior-informed & Weighted-Multi-year RAPM (slight variation).

F.) None of the models described in E., nor the ones in my quote below are meant to be a definitive player rater, because no matter what, 1.) we just don't have the ability to completely isolate a player's value to his team, and 2.) a player's value to his team is not necessarily his value in a vacuum. Again, anyone who attempts to use them so definitively is at fault, not the stats themselves.

Briefly, SPM or Statistical Plus-Minus is actually what Berri describes in your article (box-score regressed on APM/RAPM/etc.) - it's an attempt to encapsulate how much particular box-score stats affect a player's APM/RAPM score. RPM, on the contrary, is a blend of RAPM & SPM in an attempt to increase predictive power. I have issues with it, but I recognize the purpose it is trying to serve. If ESPN or anyone else wants to use it as a catch-all metric, then they're stupid - it can't quite do that.

------------------------------------

(whew)

So, if you were unconvinced before, I've probably said a whole lot of nothing. WTH does all of this mean?

It's pretty simple (and again, I think I'm disagreeing pretty staunchly with Professor Berri here), there are tens of thousands of actions on the basketball court (see the growing prominence of SportsVU and Vantage Sports data) and the box-score captures a very small fraction of these actions. When we perform all this fancy statistical voodoo with +/-, we can do a much better job of encapsulating the total effect of ALL of these actions, BUT we cannot isolate what is driving them.

The box-score yields a problem of incompleteness.

+/- yields a problem of lack of specificity/granularity.

Let's think of a quick example.

Lebron high screen, Delly handling, JR in the corner, Frye on the wing.

Delly notes that Bron draws JR's man slightly off weakside corner to pressure rolling Bron. He swings it to him, but Frye's man had shifted over to deter JR's shot so JR kicks it to Frye who drains an open 3. +3 for Cleveland.

Delly gets a hockey assist, JR gets an assist, Frye gets a 1-1 3PM, Lebron gets nothing. BUT Lebron created the bulk of the opportunity by A.) being the deadliest finisher in the game, B.) screening the ball, C.) rolling towards the basket. Delly deserves credit for seeing/making the correct pass, JR deserves credit for being a good enough shooter to draw some attention from Frye's man and for making the kick. Frye deserves credit for draining the shot.

How do we distribute out that +3? We can try to assign credit ourselves, but at the end of the day, it'll be arbitrary. RAPM, on the other hand, can do so with more accuracy than we can - it just looks at how successful 4-man units + Lebron are, and how successful those same 4-man units are with another player in place of Lebron, and then make a determination of how much impact Lebron is estimated to have had on said lineup (while adjusting for strength of opposing 5-man units). Problem is, it doesn't JUST tell us that, it just tells us how much Lebron impacts EVERY possible 4-man unit, so we can't say how much credit he deserves for that +3, but we CAN say how much credit he deserves for the whole year (scaled to 100-possessions). Obviously with a margin of error, but, to put it frankly, that's something that's present with basic-level data anyway - hardly enough to just dismiss it.

Perhaps one day, the SportsVU/Vantage-type data will be broadly available to the public and fanbase, and then we can break these things down individually and create far more accurate statistical profiles. However that day is not here yet, and until then it's smart to be accepting of any and all possible tool. Just be prescient of its weaknesses rather than outright dismissing it.


Problem is some of the language he used in his article was definitely a lot more inflammatory/ridiculing than how he comes off 1on1. At least he seems receptive.
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#386 » by Doctor MJ » Thu May 5, 2016 12:09 am

SideshowBob wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:


Somewhat encouraging response:

Chris Parker wrote:This is awesome. Thank you so much for responding. I still have issues with it, and I didn't do as good a job as I would like or needed to in explaining it because of some of my own deficiencies both in knowledge and expression. I agree with you in that it is just a stat, and MAY BE not as bad as others. I went a little overboard in trashing it, and I will take points on that. I find it a lot more entertaining to kind of disagree loudly. Be sure I will note more of these things (sorry but sorta like the NYT at the end of a different article). I didn't mean to disrepresent to trash, just find some major issues with how its done, not the least of which being the figuring based on some very small Off-court samples.

My main issue with RAPM is the over-aggregated nature which makes it very hard to know what to make of it, and the concern, given some of its inscrutabililty, that I am not aware of all of the assumptions of the model. Indeed, whenever I see Kevin Love rate very high on defense I know there must be an issue.

I hear what you're saying. I do wonder about Berri's point about the explanation of the future vs. the past. IF he's correct in saying that it doesn't predict the past, isn't there then concern that it's "fitting" the stats? Again, I'm still feeling this out, I'm not statistician. But I do want to understand it better.


This is what he responded to:

SSB wrote:
Spoiler:
Chris - RAPM does not stand for "Real Adjusted Plus Minus", it's "Regularized Adjusted Plus-Minus" or "Ridge-Regressed Adjusted Plus-Minus". So called because it is similar to the basic "Adjusted Plus-Minus" (APM) but uses ridge-regression instead of OLS in order to build the model. The evolution from OLS (APM) to Ridge (RAPM) was in fact to tackle the problem of multicollinearity. I've described the most common versions in the quote at the bottom of this post.

Also, raw +/- (what you're referring to with the Iggy stuff) shouldn't really be taken to mean anything beyond face value. When Andre Igoudala was on the floor in the 2015 Finals, Golden State outscored Cleveland by 62 points. Any conclusion beyond that is the fault of the individual, not the stat, because it very literally says nothing more than that. Did any of the voters actually say that they voted for Iggy over LBJ because of it? Cause if so, that's on THEM, not +/-. (FWIW, I'm in support of James winning it last year).

On RAPM being predictive: it's not just future seasons - it's future games. With RAPM & 50% of the season completed, you can use it to predict the outcome of the remaining 50%, and you will out-predict the results of other stats trying to do the same.

Why does that matter? It matters because it's a better indicator of goodness vs. value - process-based thinking instead of results-based (we often use the same mindset in the financial/investment world when it comes to valuation). If Andre Miller gets randomly hot and is allowed to take 25 shots one game and scores 51, the stats will "explain" him as having been good to X degree, but we know that in a vacuum he is not actually good to X degree, he is only good to Y degree. An explanatory stat will give more weight to X, whereas a predictive stat will likely do better in trying to capture Y.

As for Berri's comments, without getting into his obvious (and understandable) motivations for speaking against +/- in the face of his own stats, it's pretty straightforward to establish the case for scoring margin as being crucial in describing player/team goodness.

A.) Teams score X points and use Y possessions. Teams which, on average, have the best ratio of X:Y (ORTG or offensive efficiency) are typically the best offensive teams, with some caveats (ORB strategy, small-ball, resiliency - does your offense hold up against all teams or do you struggle against better strategies).

B.) Same thought process for defense, teams allow X points and their opponents use Y possessions. The lower the X:Y ratio (DRTG or defensive efficiency), the better the team's defense (with the same caveats). We can multiply the ratios by 100 to get a cleaner looking number, which are BBR's ORTG and DRTG.

C.) Therefore, the best overall teams, generally speaking, are those that have the largest separation between their ORTG/DRTG (GSW and SAS this season). The caveats above still apply - you want to be consistent. A team with +10 differential that plays like a +10 against all teams is better than a +10 team that plays like a +6 against some opponents and +14 against others.

D.) Continuing that line of thought, good players are those who improve their team's scoring margin/efficiency differential. An average player is a net 0. A bad player worsens their team's differential. Similar caveats apply here - consistency is important, but so is versatility/fit. A player who improves bad/average/good teams by 5 points is better than one who improves bad teams by 7, average teams by 5, and good teams by 3 (this means his skills are redundant as your team acquires more talent around him).

E.) Players/opponents are frequently in/out of lineups & games, which means over large time periods (multi-season for APM, >=1 season for RAPM) we can look at the 5on5 matchup +/- differentials of tens of thousands of lineups simultaneously and utilize regression (weighted by possessions played by EACH particular 5on5 matchup) to extract an estimate of each player's impact on their team's scoring margin. There are multiple ways to do this, and we've moved from APM (standard OLS) to RAPM (Ridge-Regression) to Prior-informed & Weighted-Multi-year RAPM (slight variation).

F.) None of the models described in E., nor the ones in my quote below are meant to be a definitive player rater, because no matter what, 1.) we just don't have the ability to completely isolate a player's value to his team, and 2.) a player's value to his team is not necessarily his value in a vacuum. Again, anyone who attempts to use them so definitively is at fault, not the stats themselves.

Briefly, SPM or Statistical Plus-Minus is actually what Berri describes in your article (box-score regressed on APM/RAPM/etc.) - it's an attempt to encapsulate how much particular box-score stats affect a player's APM/RAPM score. RPM, on the contrary, is a blend of RAPM & SPM in an attempt to increase predictive power. I have issues with it, but I recognize the purpose it is trying to serve. If ESPN or anyone else wants to use it as a catch-all metric, then they're stupid - it can't quite do that.

------------------------------------

(whew)

So, if you were unconvinced before, I've probably said a whole lot of nothing. WTH does all of this mean?

It's pretty simple (and again, I think I'm disagreeing pretty staunchly with Professor Berri here), there are tens of thousands of actions on the basketball court (see the growing prominence of SportsVU and Vantage Sports data) and the box-score captures a very small fraction of these actions. When we perform all this fancy statistical voodoo with +/-, we can do a much better job of encapsulating the total effect of ALL of these actions, BUT we cannot isolate what is driving them.

The box-score yields a problem of incompleteness.

+/- yields a problem of lack of specificity/granularity.

Let's think of a quick example.

Lebron high screen, Delly handling, JR in the corner, Frye on the wing.

Delly notes that Bron draws JR's man slightly off weakside corner to pressure rolling Bron. He swings it to him, but Frye's man had shifted over to deter JR's shot so JR kicks it to Frye who drains an open 3. +3 for Cleveland.

Delly gets a hockey assist, JR gets an assist, Frye gets a 1-1 3PM, Lebron gets nothing. BUT Lebron created the bulk of the opportunity by A.) being the deadliest finisher in the game, B.) screening the ball, C.) rolling towards the basket. Delly deserves credit for seeing/making the correct pass, JR deserves credit for being a good enough shooter to draw some attention from Frye's man and for making the kick. Frye deserves credit for draining the shot.

How do we distribute out that +3? We can try to assign credit ourselves, but at the end of the day, it'll be arbitrary. RAPM, on the other hand, can do so with more accuracy than we can - it just looks at how successful 4-man units + Lebron are, and how successful those same 4-man units are with another player in place of Lebron, and then make a determination of how much impact Lebron is estimated to have had on said lineup (while adjusting for strength of opposing 5-man units). Problem is, it doesn't JUST tell us that, it just tells us how much Lebron impacts EVERY possible 4-man unit, so we can't say how much credit he deserves for that +3, but we CAN say how much credit he deserves for the whole year (scaled to 100-possessions). Obviously with a margin of error, but, to put it frankly, that's something that's present with basic-level data anyway - hardly enough to just dismiss it.

Perhaps one day, the SportsVU/Vantage-type data will be broadly available to the public and fanbase, and then we can break these things down individually and create far more accurate statistical profiles. However that day is not here yet, and until then it's smart to be accepting of any and all possible tool. Just be prescient of its weaknesses rather than outright dismissing it.


Problem is some of the language he used in his article was definitely a lot more inflammatory/ridiculing than how he comes off 1on1. At least he seems receptive.


Cool. He probably recognizes how overboard he went and is wincing. There's no defending his article, but if he's willing to listen and learn, he may prove worthwhile.

Good job being so proactive about this SSB. You may have started him on the road to recovery.
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#387 » by homecourtloss » Thu May 5, 2016 6:03 am

SSB making the world a better place one post at a time.
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.

lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#388 » by Doctor MJ » Thu May 5, 2016 2:01 pm

homecourtloss wrote:SSB making the world a better place one post at a time.


Yes!

SSB, you should make that your sig!
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#389 » by Blackmill » Fri May 6, 2016 1:23 am

Slightly off topic, but could some one explain why the dropbox PI RAPM has values for Shaq in 2013? It also seems to have values for Nash and Kidd after they had retired.

Also, is it just coincidence that the 2002 values seem deflated, even when viewed in standard deviations? Is this because 2002 was the first PI year?
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#390 » by SideshowBob » Fri May 6, 2016 1:43 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:SSB making the world a better place one post at a time.


Yes!

SSB, you should make that your sig!


:lol: That may be a bit much.
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#391 » by tsherkin » Fri May 6, 2016 2:03 am

SideshowBob wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:SSB making the world a better place one post at a time.


Yes!

SSB, you should make that your sig!


:lol: That may be a bit much.


It was, however, a really nice post explaining the pros and cons of RAPM and RPM. :)
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#392 » by Doctor MJ » Fri May 6, 2016 2:21 am

SideshowBob wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:SSB making the world a better place one post at a time.


Yes!

SSB, you should make that your sig!


:lol: That may be a bit much.


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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#393 » by blabla » Fri May 6, 2016 8:41 am

Blackmill wrote:Slightly off topic, but could some one explain why the dropbox PI RAPM has values for Shaq in 2013? It also seems to have values for Nash and Kidd after they had retired.

Also, is it just coincidence that the 2002 values seem deflated, even when viewed in standard deviations? Is this because 2002 was the first PI year?
Prior-informed means multiple seasons went into the computations. This has the following effects:

- Players that played in seasons prior (heh) are also in the sample, and are thus getting listed
- Since this is using more than a single season of data (in contrast to NPI) the player esimates - which are generally dragged towards 0 due to regularization - can take on higher values. The sample size is bigger and there's more data to "convince" RAPM that player X is good. 2002 PI RAPM consists of only 2 years of data (2001+2002), while the later PI RAPMs consist of 3
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#394 » by Blackmill » Fri May 6, 2016 10:53 pm

Again, this isn't quite on the topic of 2016 RAPM, but I don't think it warrants its own thread.

Looking at PI RAPM (in standard deviations from the mean) for Lebron,

Spoiler:
Year___ORAPM___DRAPM___RAPM
2015____5.24_____1.74____4.50
2014____5.00_____0.70____3.69
2013____4.46_____0.82____3.53
2012____4.80_____2.25____4.73
2011____4.81_____2.67____5.05
2010____5.53_____1.80____4.86
2009____4.77_____2.21____4.68


we see that Lebron shows up noticeably better in 2015 than he does in 2014 and 2013. Most of this is coming from his improved DRAPM. That said, his ORAPM is also improved, and is better than in all his previous seasons other than 2010.

What surprises me is that his efficiency doesn't seem to be influencing his ORAPM very much. Personally, I think efficiency drives great scoring impact, so I would expect Lebron's ORAPM to have fallen. That's not to say Lebron is inefficient but his raw scoring efficiency has dropped significantly.

As some one who hasn't really watched Lebron too much, there are two things that come to mind:

(1) Perhaps Lebron's playmaking increased significantly. I happen to think elite playmaking is more impactful than elite scoring, so if Lebron was playmaking like Nash last season, I would accept that as an explanation. My only skepticism is why would Lebron have suddenly become substantially better at playmaking? Was he turning scoring opportunities (that he previously would have taken) into playmaking opportunities?

(2) Alternatively, his raw scoring efficiency had dropped, but so had the expected outcome of the possessions he scored on. For instance, maybe Lebron's teammates generated a lot of transition opportunities for him in Miami that he isn't getting in Cleveland. That said, I don't think this alone can account for the whole drop in efficiency, which was truly vast.

Other thoughts on why Lebron show up so well offensively in 2015?
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#395 » by Doctor MJ » Sat May 7, 2016 2:02 am

Blackmill wrote:Again, this isn't quite on the topic of 2016 RAPM, but I don't think it warrants its own thread.

Looking at PI RAPM (in standard deviations from the mean) for Lebron,

Spoiler:
Year___ORAPM___DRAPM___RAPM
2015____5.24_____1.74____4.50
2014____5.00_____0.70____3.69
2013____4.46_____0.82____3.53
2012____4.80_____2.25____4.73
2011____4.81_____2.67____5.05
2010____5.53_____1.80____4.86
2009____4.77_____2.21____4.68


we see that Lebron shows up noticeably better in 2015 than he does in 2014 and 2013. Most of this is coming from his improved DRAPM. That said, his ORAPM is also improved, and is better than in all his previous seasons other than 2010.


Where is this data from? Engelmann's data showed a major drop off when he left Cleveland for Miami which made sense given that the Cavs totally fell apart whenever he left the game.
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#396 » by Blackmill » Sat May 7, 2016 2:28 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Where is this data from? Engelmann's data showed a major drop off when he left Cleveland for Miami which made sense given that the Cavs totally fell apart whenever he left the game.


I got it from [ https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AAAUkNkDUG0KWeewPZbnwS2ja?dl=0 ].

But I think there may be a miscommunication. You're mentioning when Lebron left Cleveland for Miami. I'm looking at Lebron's return to Cleveland (2015 season) and how his efficiency is much lower than when he was in Miami (specifically 2014 and 2013 seasons).

Or are you suggesting there's something about Lebron's relative role in Cleveland versus Miami, that hasn't changed since he left and then returned, which is driving the difference?
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#397 » by Doctor MJ » Sat May 7, 2016 3:31 am

Blackmill wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Where is this data from? Engelmann's data showed a major drop off when he left Cleveland for Miami which made sense given that the Cavs totally fell apart whenever he left the game.


I got it from [ https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AAAUkNkDUG0KWeewPZbnwS2ja?dl=0 ].

But I think there may be a miscommunication. You're mentioning when Lebron left Cleveland for Miami. I'm looking at Lebron's return to Cleveland (2015 season) and how his efficiency is much lower than when he was in Miami (specifically 2014 and 2013 seasons).

Or are you suggesting there's something about Lebron's relative role in Cleveland versus Miami, that hasn't changed since he left and then returned, which is driving the difference?


But you listed data from earlier years which I happen to remember, and the numbers your'e showing look totally different from the one's I have, so I'm wondering whose data it is. Who put it up on Dropbox?
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#398 » by SideshowBob » Sat May 7, 2016 3:37 am

Blackmill wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Where is this data from? Engelmann's data showed a major drop off when he left Cleveland for Miami which made sense given that the Cavs totally fell apart whenever he left the game.


I got it from [ https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AAAUkNkDUG0KWeewPZbnwS2ja?dl=0 ].

But I think there may be a miscommunication. You're mentioning when Lebron left Cleveland for Miami. I'm looking at Lebron's return to Cleveland (2015 season) and how his efficiency is much lower than when he was in Miami (specifically 2014 and 2013 seasons).

Or are you suggesting there's something about Lebron's relative role in Cleveland versus Miami, that hasn't changed since he left and then returned, which is driving the difference?


I believe this is JE's multi-year (3-year with most weight on listed year, less weight on n-1, and less on n-2). Not sure why it's labeled as PI RAPM. The only PI sets we have are the ones on GotBuckets.com (up to 2014) and the one's linked in colts18's signature (up to 2013).
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#399 » by Blackmill » Sat May 7, 2016 4:51 am

SideshowBob wrote:
Blackmill wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Where is this data from? Engelmann's data showed a major drop off when he left Cleveland for Miami which made sense given that the Cavs totally fell apart whenever he left the game.


I got it from [ https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AAAUkNkDUG0KWeewPZbnwS2ja?dl=0 ].

But I think there may be a miscommunication. You're mentioning when Lebron left Cleveland for Miami. I'm looking at Lebron's return to Cleveland (2015 season) and how his efficiency is much lower than when he was in Miami (specifically 2014 and 2013 seasons).

Or are you suggesting there's something about Lebron's relative role in Cleveland versus Miami, that hasn't changed since he left and then returned, which is driving the difference?


I believe this is JE's multi-year (3-year with most weight on listed year, less weight on n-1, and less on n-2). Not sure why it's labeled as PI RAPM. The only PI sets we have are the ones on GotBuckets.com (up to 2014) and the one's linked in colts18's signature (up to 2013).


Thanks for clarifying.

But even using GotBuckets or colts18's document we see scoring efficiency not always making much of a difference in ORAPM for scorers (though I didn't standardize the results). Again, we could use Lebron as an example, and compare his 2013 and 2010 years. Or we could look to Kobe who somehow had higher ORAPM in 2006 than Nash (using colt's). Jordan in the 1998 PI RAPM is another example.

I just don't understand how Lebron saw a decrease in his ORAPM when his efficiency skyrocketed (outside of the two possibilities I mentioned earlier). Or how '06 Kobe and '98 Jordan neared the top of the league in ORAPM without being very efficient.

I understand that, if the alternative of a teammate shooting is just that much worse, volume scoring on slightly above average efficiency could provide a large lift. But it certainly wouldn't scale well with better shooting teammates. And my understanding was that RAPM accounts for teammates. That is, a scorer won't look better for playing with inefficient teammates.

I like RAPM as a stat but the results sometimes conflict with what I think is (deductively) necessary for high offensive impact. So, something has to give, but I don't know which.
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Re: 2016 RAPM/RPM/etc. *Updated 4/20* *RPM Updated 5/1* (Pg. 18) 

Post#400 » by Johnny Firpo » Sat May 7, 2016 8:25 am

There is no way Lebron should have won the finals MVP last year, not with that efficiency. He had an extremely high usage rate but in reality this was like his 6th or 7th best playoff series, if that. I do think however that Curry should have won it instead of Igoudala.

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