The LeBron Thread 2021 Off-Season Edition

[thebigbird]

If LeBron airballed a 2 point jumper to lose a game 7 his haters would never stfu about it. It would still be brought up 10+ years later. Hell, his haters never shut up about Ray Allen "saving LeBron's legacy" with the shot in game 6 in 2013, despite the fact that LeBron scored 16 points in that fourth quarter to get the Heat to that point. I will forever hold future players to the insane standards that LeBron haters have held him to for the past 15 years. It's only fair to return the favor.

[falcolombardi]

This Bucks team is better than almost all of the EC conference teams Lebron beat over the years.

By definition, every team LeBron beats is bad, so sure.

I mean I think they are, but it doesn't diminish Lebron's accomplishments.

You can only beat who's in front of you.

in fairness, while these bucks are better than a vast majority of lebron rival teams in the east the point kind of stands

had lebron and davis played in the east and beat these bucks it would likely get diminished retroactively

if you think about it,bucks coming into this year had similarities with lowry/demar toronto. great regular season teams that underperform in the playoffs. bucks regular seasons peaked higher with 2020 yeah, but otherwise their 2021 or 2019 regular seasons are very similar to those raptor teams regular seasons

and their worse choke (2020 vs miami and 2018 vs cavs) just as bad

[MartinToVaught]

and their worse choke (2020 vs miami and 2018 vs cavs) just as bad

The Raptors getting swept by the Wizards in 2015 was a way worse choke than either of those.

[falcolombardi]

and their worse choke (2020 vs miami and 2018 vs cavs) just as bad

The Raptors getting swept by the Wizards in 2015 was a way worse choke than either of those.

maybe but they were not considered a good team her

only after their 2016 conference finals did people start taking them semi seriously as a strong team

then in 2017 and 2018 they had really atrong regular seasons (specially 2018) and seemed to be a team on the rise until cavs smashed them

[thebigbird]

By definition, every team LeBron beats is bad, so sure.

I mean I think they are, but it doesn't diminish Lebron's accomplishments.

You can only beat who's in front of you.

in fairness, while these bucks are better than a vast majority of lebron rival teams in the east the point kind of stands

had lebron and davis played in the east and beat these bucks it would likely get diminished retroactively

if you think about it,bucks coming into this year had similarities with lowry/demar toronto. great regular season teams that underperform in the playoffs. bucks regular seasons peaked higher with 2020 yeah, but otherwise their 2021 or 2019 regular seasons are very similar to those raptor teams regular seasons

and their worse choke (2020 vs miami and 2018 vs cavs) just as bad

This Bucks team isn’t even that good, imho. They skated by an injured Nets team literally by inches. If Durant’s are three inches behind where they were all we’re talking about is how Giannis and the Bucks choked in the playoffs once again.

It doesn’t matter who LeBron plays, they’ll always call his competition weak. Look at what people said about the Lakers in the playoffs last year. Everyone talked about how the Lakers were going to lose and them once they beat all three west teams in five their competitors was once again trash. They faced Lillard, Harden/Westbrook, and Jokic/Murray m, easily beat all three, and then the narrative became that their competition was weak.

[homecourtloss]

Different set of rules for KD and LeBron I see.

Always has been. A second round exit while scoring 40 is an argument for KD as the GOAT. For Lebron it means he's fallen out of the top 100 of all time. And suddenly Giannis is perceived as a top tier playoff performer again to prop up KD.

I can appreciate both players but to me it's also obvious that KD is a tier, or 2, lower than Lebron and that will never change at this point.

What’s sad is that this isn’t even hyperbole. Endless praise for Durant whereas anything other than a dominating title run is seen as legacy reducer for James.

There were some great scoring moments for Durant, but overall consistent offense creation for the Nets wasn’t there. He did play good defense throughout though.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

#38 overall, #41 on offense.

KD playoffs

+3.8 per 100 possessions on court throughout playoffs and that’s including playing a hobbled Celtics team.
Nets +20 per 100 possessions with him off court
301 minutes played with Kyrie
276 minutes played with Harden [some with him injured]

Played 39 minutes total without Kyrie or Harden on court;
Nets with an ORtg of 83.5 in that time. Did he individually score in this span? Yes, albeit on poor efficiency (43.5% eFG, 50% TS). Were the Nets scoring overall? No.

Vs. the Bucks:

-1.5 per 100 possessions on Court
Nets with a 104.8 ORtg in that time
Nets +34.6 per 100 possessions with KD off court.

Moreover, I’ve seen LeBron take the blame for teammates missing open shots in the playoffs because “bRoN cOnTRoLs EvErYtHiNg.” But in this case with the Nets, Harris is the choker.

In 2018, Cavs made some open shots vs. the Raptors and had one of the greatest offensive series ever.

[thebigbird]

Different set of rules for KD and LeBron I see.

Always has been. A second round exit while scoring 40 is an argument for KD as the GOAT. For Lebron it means he's fallen out of the top 100 of all time. And suddenly Giannis is perceived as a top tier playoff performer again to prop up KD.

I can appreciate both players but to me it's also obvious that KD is a tier, or 2, lower than Lebron and that will never change at this point.

What’s sad is that this isn’t even hyperbole. Endless praise for Durant whereas anything other than a dominating title run is seen as legacy reducer for James.

There were some great scoring moments for Durant, but overall consistent offense creation for the Nets wasn’t there.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

#38 overall, #41 on offense.

KD playoffs

+3.8 per 100 possessions on court throughout playoffs and that’s including playing a hobbled Celtics team.
Nets +20 per 100 possessions with him off court
301 minutes played with Kyrie
276 minutes played with Harden [some with him injured]

Played 39 minutes total without Kyrie or Harden on court; Nets with an ORtg of 83.5 in that time. Did he individually score in this span? Yes, albeit in poor efficiency (43.5% eFG, 50% TS). Were the Nets scoring overall? No.

Vs. the Bucks:

-1.5 per 100 possessions on Court
Nets with a 104.8 ORtg in that time
Nets +34.6 per 100 possessions with KD off court.

Moreover, I’ve seen LeBron take the blame for teammates missing open shots in the playoffs because “bRoN cOnTRoLs EvErYtHiNg.” But in this case with the Nets, Harris is the choker.

Can’t forget “LeBron literally picks his teammates so he can’t complain about having no help.”

KD and Kyrie forced the Nets to give Deandre Jordan 4/$40 million. Jordan didn’t play a second in the playoffs.

[SeniorWalker]

I mean, I dunno if Durant is the best player in the world now, not exactly buying that. But it surely isn't LeBron in 2021. And tbh LeBron hasn't been the best since 2018. There just hasn't been a clear #1 since then. A few guys are at the top in given years. LeBron is still an elite player and hovers around but isn't that guy anymore. I saw it coming a few years ahead and only now are people catching up, it always takes awhile for narratives to change and perception to be cast and set.

I'd actually take Curry as #1 currently, nobody in the league is guarded like him and he still slaughters defenses.

Then I'd probably take Durant and Kawhi for how great they are in the postseason. Then probably Giannis for his dominance and durability. LeBron comes in after that probably. Around top 5ish which isn't bad for a guy going on 37 years old.

[Jaivl]

I mean, I dunno if Durant is the best player in the world now, not exactly buying that. But it surely isn't LeBron in 2021. And tbh LeBron hasn't been the best since 2018. There just hasn't been a clear #1 since then. A few guys are at the top in given years. LeBron is still an elite player and hovers around but isn't that guy anymore. I saw it coming a few years ahead and only now are people catching up, it always takes awhile for narratives to change and perception to be cast and set.

I'd actually take Curry as #1 currently, nobody in the league is guarded like him and he still slaughters defenses.

Then I'd probably take Durant and Kawhi for how great they are in the postseason. Then probably Giannis for his dominance and durability. LeBron comes in after that probably. Around top 5ish which isn't bad for a guy going on 37 years old.

Agree Curry is the #1 right now but LeBron was defo the best in 2020.

[falcolombardi]

I mean, I dunno if Durant is the best player in the world now, not exactly buying that. But it surely isn't LeBron in 2021. And tbh LeBron hasn't been the best since 2018. There just hasn't been a clear #1 since then. A few guys are at the top in given years. LeBron is still an elite player and hovers around but isn't that guy anymore. I saw it coming a few years ahead and only now are people catching up, it always takes awhile for narratives to change and perception to be cast and set.

I'd actually take Curry as #1 currently, nobody in the league is guarded like him and he still slaughters defenses.

Then I'd probably take Durant and Kawhi for how great they are in the postseason. Then probably Giannis for his dominance and durability. LeBron comes in after that probably. Around top 5ish which isn't bad for a guy going on 37 years old.

2019-2021 has been a weird transition era for who is the best player in the world

but i would argue lebron was the best player overall (regular season + playoffs) in 2020 with davis (playoffs), harden, giannis, jokic and kawhi right behind

2019 it was a weird year with lebron missing playoffs and dursnt getting injured in them, it has to go between curry and kawhi

2021 is where it becomes a total crapshoot as nobody is standing at least a little ahead of the field all thinghs considered (regular season, availability, playoffs level of play, making a run to at least the finals)

the only players with dominant mvp level regular seasons still in the fight for the title are giannis and embiid (and his was with lots of missed games) everyone else was injured, out of the playoffs early or is a level below top in the world tier at this point in their careers

it has been a weird year

edit: why curry best for 2021?, if anythingh jokic had the slightly better regular season and curry didnt have a play-off run where he could have separated himself from jokic

[SeniorWalker]

I mean, I dunno if Durant is the best player in the world now, not exactly buying that. But it surely isn't LeBron in 2021. And tbh LeBron hasn't been the best since 2018. There just hasn't been a clear #1 since then. A few guys are at the top in given years. LeBron is still an elite player and hovers around but isn't that guy anymore. I saw it coming a few years ahead and only now are people catching up, it always takes awhile for narratives to change and perception to be cast and set.

I'd actually take Curry as #1 currently, nobody in the league is guarded like him and he still slaughters defenses.

Then I'd probably take Durant and Kawhi for how great they are in the postseason. Then probably Giannis for his dominance and durability. LeBron comes in after that probably. Around top 5ish which isn't bad for a guy going on 37 years old.

Agree Curry is the #1 right now but LeBron was defo the best in 2020.

No he wasn't.

He wasnt the best in the regular season and AD was better the majority of the playoffs. Even in the finals, AD was the best player in the early part of the series when they took a commanding lead in the series, the Heat couldn't stop him at all. Jimmy Butler pretty much matched LeBron blow for blow down the stretch.

[falcolombardi]

I mean, I dunno if Durant is the best player in the world now, not exactly buying that. But it surely isn't LeBron in 2021. And tbh LeBron hasn't been the best since 2018. There just hasn't been a clear #1 since then. A few guys are at the top in given years. LeBron is still an elite player and hovers around but isn't that guy anymore. I saw it coming a few years ahead and only now are people catching up, it always takes awhile for narratives to change and perception to be cast and set.

I'd actually take Curry as #1 currently, nobody in the league is guarded like him and he still slaughters defenses.

Then I'd probably take Durant and Kawhi for how great they are in the postseason. Then probably Giannis for his dominance and durability. LeBron comes in after that probably. Around top 5ish which isn't bad for a guy going on 37 years old.

Agree Curry is the #1 right now but LeBron was defo the best in 2020.

No he wasn't.

He wasnt the best in the regular season and AD was better the majority of the playoffs. Even in the finals, AD was the best player in the early part of the series when they took a commanding lead in the series, the Heat couldn't stop him at all. Jimmy Butler pretty much matched LeBron blow for blow down the stretch.

lebron was the hearth of the lakers in 2020, it was like 2017 warriors

dursnt/davis had impressive playoffs runs but the teams depended more on lebron and curry

lebron was #2 in mvp race to giannis (who had meh playoffs) and the clearly more valuable regular season player to davis

in the playoffs davis may have been aa valuable as lebron but regular season + playoffs lebron comes ahead

[SeniorWalker]

Agree Curry is the #1 right now but LeBron was defo the best in 2020.

No he wasn't.

He wasnt the best in the regular season and AD was better the majority of the playoffs. Even in the finals, AD was the best player in the early part of the series when they took a commanding lead in the series, the Heat couldn't stop him at all. Jimmy Butler pretty much matched LeBron blow for blow down the stretch.

lebron was the hearth of the lakers in 2020, it was like 2017 warriors

dursnt/davis had impressive playoffs runs but the teams depended more on lebron and curry

lebron was #2 in mvp race to giannis (who had meh playoffs) and the clearly more valuable regular season player to davis

in the playoffs davis may have been aa valuable as lebron but regular season + playoffs lebron comes ahead

It's fair to think that but the narrative on LeBron recently is that his regular season performances don't matter as much because he has a playoff mode where, once activated, he becomes a tier above everyone else. What I'm telling you is, 2018 was the last time that was true. I said it then and it's pretty much unfolded exactly as I thought. 2020 LeBron was not a level above everyone else, in fact his teammate was a bit better than him for the majority of the meaningful playoff games. LeBron was the playmaker, sure but he wasn't the actual best player.

You can't average the two performances when neither his reg season or playoff in the last 3 years has been #1 worthy. He's not the best regular season player anymore and hasn't been for awhile, so either he makes up for it in the postseason by utter destruction above all comparison (which he did in 2018)...or he doesn't (2019-present). In the NBA we live in a what have you done for me lately culture and we give allowances when we have a recent body of work to go on. LeBron has not shown in any series recently that he is the clear best player, in fact a number of guys have been better. So if his peak play isn't the best anymore and we're not even getting that most of the year now.....he's not #1. It was going to happen at some point, he's almost 37.

[dcstanley]

This is going to sound like incessant complaining but man as a Lebron fan I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. The same people that denigrate the Lakers 2020 title run for not facing any strong opponents are the same people claiming that this Bucks team is superior to any team Lebron faced in the East. While the latter may be true, people wouldn't be as charitable if Lebron was in KD's shoes. Can you imagine if Lebron lost to a team that flamed out in embarrassing fashion the year prior? That would be cited endlessly. I could just picture the "Lebron couldn't do what Jimmy Butler and Tyler Hero did" threads in the GB.

Also, the fact that Kyrie played 3 1/2 games and Harden (no matter how limited he was) played 3 games would not be lost on folks. People would be acting as if Lebron had adequate support.

[FC93]

I think LeBron vs. AD in the 2020 playoffs is debatable (impact stats vastly favor LeBron; my eye told me it was very close), but the only reason LeBron wasn't a tier above everyone else was because Davis joined him on that tier. The two of them were *both* a tier above anyone else. The result was the Lakers basically sleepwalked to a championship. It was such an easy title run that it went from "the Lakers are going to lose" at the start of every series to "uhhhh well the teams they played all sucked." Yeah, the teams they played all sucked because LeBron and Davis put together a 2-man playoffs run for the ages.

As for the current best player, there really isn't one. Durant's in the conversation, but Giannis and Embiid have opportunities to challenge for the throne. Jokic was rightfully the MVP. Kawhi was playing like a God in the playoffs, was great in the 2020 playoffs and was great in 2019. If LeBron or AD come back from their injury and puts together a run like the 2020 playoffs I honestly think either would deserve a mention too (I don't think this will happen, by the way).

[falcolombardi]

No he wasn't.

He wasnt the best in the regular season and AD was better the majority of the playoffs. Even in the finals, AD was the best player in the early part of the series when they took a commanding lead in the series, the Heat couldn't stop him at all. Jimmy Butler pretty much matched LeBron blow for blow down the stretch.

lebron was the hearth of the lakers in 2020, it was like 2017 warriors

dursnt/davis had impressive playoffs runs but the teams depended more on lebron and curry

lebron was #2 in mvp race to giannis (who had meh playoffs) and the clearly more valuable regular season player to davis

in the playoffs davis may have been aa valuable as lebron but regular season + playoffs lebron comes ahead

It's fair to think that but the narrative on LeBron recently is that his regular season performances don't matter as much because he has a playoff mode where, once activated, he becomes a tier above everyone else. What I'm telling you is, 2018 was the last time that was true. I said it then and it's pretty much unfolded exactly as I thought. 2020 LeBron was not a level above everyone else, in fact his teammate was a bit better than him for the majority of the meaningful playoff games. LeBron was the playmaker, sure but he wasn't the actual best player.

You can't average the two performances when neither his reg season or playoff in the last 3 years has been #1 worthy. He's not the best regular season player anymore and hasn't been for awhile, so either he makes up for it in the postseason by utter destruction above all comparison (which he did in 2018)...or he doesn't (2019-present). In the NBA we live in a what have you done for me lately culture and we give allowances when we have a recent body of work to go on. LeBron has not shown in any series recently that he is the clear best player, in fact a number of guys have been better. So if his peak play isn't the best anymore and we're not even getting that most of the year now.....he's not #1. It was going to happen at some point, he's almost 37.

are you comparing lebron to other players in 2020 or to other lebron seasons?, cause if is the latter then yeah, he is not the best of course

but in 2020? his competitors are

davis (who was comparable in the post season, you have lebron a bit below davis in playoffs i have him slightly above, either way their playoffs run were comparable)

butler (great playoffs but not better than lebron and clearly not as good in regular season)

kawhi (worse regular season + worse playoffs)

giannis (better regular seasom but clearly worse in playoffs)

which one has a clear case over him that year?

giannis if you only focus on reg season, davis if you use only playoffs (and is not clear davis was better there

[homecourtloss]

I mean, I dunno if Durant is the best player in the world now, not exactly buying that. But it surely isn't LeBron in 2021. And tbh LeBron hasn't been the best since 2018. There just hasn't been a clear #1 since then. A few guys are at the top in given years. LeBron is still an elite player and hovers around but isn't that guy anymore. I saw it coming a few years ahead and only now are people catching up, it always takes awhile for narratives to change and perception to be cast and set.

I'd actually take Curry as #1 currently, nobody in the league is guarded like him and he still slaughters defenses.

Then I'd probably take Durant and Kawhi for how great they are in the postseason. Then probably Giannis for his dominance and durability. LeBron comes in after that probably. Around top 5ish which isn't bad for a guy going on 37 years old.

Agree Curry is the #1 right now but LeBron was defo the best in 2020.

No he wasn't.

He wasnt the best in the regular season and AD was better the majority of the playoffs. Even in the finals, AD was the best player in the early part of the series when they took a commanding lead in the series, the Heat couldn't stop him at all. Jimmy Butler pretty much matched LeBron blow for blow down the stretch.

Yes, he was. James was the driving force behind their record. RPM, RAPM, ON/OFF all show this.

2020 March 31st:

LeBron On, AD off, 777 minutes: 113.5 ORtg, 103.0 DRtg, +10.3 [DRtg equivalent to 2nd best in the NBA]
AD ON, LeBron off, 572 minutes: 111.9 ORtg, 114.4 DRtg, -2.5 [DRtg equivalent to 28th in the NBA]

The great majority of the winning margins the Lakers produced were either with LeBron and AD on court or LeBon with no AD. Lakers were losing leads/creating bigger deficits with just AD.

A lot of that had to do with not only just offense but defense, too.

2020 Lakers’ DRtg when player is on court:

THT: 111.2
Rondo: 107.3
KCP: 107.2
AD: 106.4
Howard: 106.4
Green: 106.0
McGee: 105.7
Kuzma: 105.2
Dion: 105.0
Bradley: 104.0
Morris: 103.4
Daniels: 102.7
Cook: 102.5
Caruso: 101.0
Dudley: 98.4

DRtgs for LeBron Pairs:

James + Cook: 90.8 (11.7 better with LeBron)
James + Rondo: 100.1 (7.2 better with LeBron)
James + Caruso: 95.1 (5.9 better with LeBron)
James + Kuzma: 99.8 (5.4 better with LeBron)
James + Davis: 103.2 (3.2 better with LeBron)
James + KCP: 104.2 (3.0 better with LeBron)
James + Howard: 104.5 (1.9 better with LeBron)
James + Green: 104.7 (1.3 better with LeBron)
James + Bradley: 103.1 (.9 better with LeBron)
James + Morris: 102.5 (.9 better with LeBron)
James + McGee: 105.2 (.7 better with LeBron)
James + Daniels: 102.6 (.1 better with LeBron)
James + Dudley: 102.1 (3.7 worse with LeBron)

RPM:

LeBron at #2 [was at a historic number before formula change] because just about ever two man, three man, four man, and 5 man lineup was better both offensively and defensively with James.

AD at #38

RAPM

Lebron, 7th; AD, 76th

LEBRON

Lebron, 4th; AD, 8th

RAPTOR

Lebron, 13th; AD, 28th

[SeniorWalker]

lebron was the hearth of the lakers in 2020, it was like 2017 warriors

dursnt/davis had impressive playoffs runs but the teams depended more on lebron and curry

lebron was #2 in mvp race to giannis (who had meh playoffs) and the clearly more valuable regular season player to davis

in the playoffs davis may have been aa valuable as lebron but regular season + playoffs lebron comes ahead

It's fair to think that but the narrative on LeBron recently is that his regular season performances don't matter as much because he has a playoff mode where, once activated, he becomes a tier above everyone else. What I'm telling you is, 2018 was the last time that was true. I said it then and it's pretty much unfolded exactly as I thought. 2020 LeBron was not a level above everyone else, in fact his teammate was a bit better than him for the majority of the meaningful playoff games. LeBron was the playmaker, sure but he wasn't the actual best player.

You can't average the two performances when neither his reg season or playoff in the last 3 years has been #1 worthy. He's not the best regular season player anymore and hasn't been for awhile, so either he makes up for it in the postseason by utter destruction above all comparison (which he did in 2018)...or he doesn't (2019-present). In the NBA we live in a what have you done for me lately culture and we give allowances when we have a recent body of work to go on. LeBron has not shown in any series recently that he is the clear best player, in fact a number of guys have been better. So if his peak play isn't the best anymore and we're not even getting that most of the year now.....he's not #1. It was going to happen at some point, he's almost 37.

are you comparing lebron to other players in 2020 or to other lebron seasons?, cause if is the latter then yeah, he is not the best of course

but in 2020? his competitors are

davis (who was comparable in the post season, you have lebron a bit below davis in playoffs i have him slightly above, either way their playoffs run were comparable)

butler (great playoffs but not better than lebron and clearly not as good in regular season)

kawhi (worse regular season + worse playoffs)

giannis (better regular seasom but clearly worse in playoffs)

which one has a clear case over him that year?

giannis if you only focus on reg season, davis if you use only playoffs (and is not clear davis was better there

My point was just that LeBron was not on a separate tier from everyone else in the playoffs and that is important given that he most definitely wasn't the best reg season player, nor was he the year before when he didn't make the playoffs. I also think him playing with Davis in an underrated factor, Davis takes a lot of pressure off of him to be the guy now and I'll explain why this is important.

In 2018 LeBron had one all-star teammate who was nowhere near him in impact. He went against the warriors in the finals and while he had no chance to win that series, he was still the definitive best player on the floor. The same thing just happened with Kevin Durant.

Since then we have not seen that from LeBron. In fact, without Davis he hasn't looked like a top 5 player because he's asked to do more than just be a facilitator and occasional defender and at his age that's asking a lot. AD really dominated the playoffs up to the finals and in the early part of the series where the Lakers hit the Heat in the mouth and let them know who the better team was. LeBron did play better down the stretch but he had a guy taking enormous pressure off of him (like we say for KD in the 17 and 18 finals with Curry) and he still wasn't heads and shoulders above the field. Actually butler went toe to toe with him and had wayyyyyy less help, which frankly to me is more impressive. It was not a convincing "I'm still the guy performance" to be brutally honest. He was great, dont get me wrong, but I'm not going to overlook the fact that he wasn't really the best player all year (or the year before) and then has a stretch of games where he is kind of the best against a depleted and much inferior Heat team and has a teammate making life wayyy easier on him compared to the field. It's not a knock on LeBron for having AD, it's just that his dominance has not been demonstrable recently without him, key word being recently. When we've seen LeBron without AD he hasn't looked like the best in the league, which is important because win or lose, if you want to be considered the best you have to look utterly dominant regardless of who is on the floor with you. I.e., Steph curry all year long with that horrible warriors team and just this last week Kevin Durant. LeBron has not done that in years. Not saying he's been bad, of course not, but he's not been the absolute best which is what we're talking about and I think it's time everyone catches up and realizes he doesn't have that crown anymore.

[nzahir]

If LeBron airballed a 2 point jumper to lose a game 7 his haters would never stfu about it. It would still be brought up 10+ years later. Hell, his haters never shut up about Ray Allen "saving LeBron's legacy" with the shot in game 6 in 2013, despite the fact that LeBron scored 16 points in that fourth quarter to get the Heat to that point. I will forever hold future players to the insane standards that LeBron haters have held him to for the past 15 years. It's only fair to return the favor.

Imagine what Skip would say if Lebron went 0/6 in OT and airballed a game winner in a game 7 LMFAO

While KD is all time great and a more skilled scorer than Lebron, they aren't in the same tier at all

In 2018 Lebron had to do this basically every night with a worse overall team

[falcolombardi]

It's fair to think that but the narrative on LeBron recently is that his regular season performances don't matter as much because he has a playoff mode where, once activated, he becomes a tier above everyone else. What I'm telling you is, 2018 was the last time that was true. I said it then and it's pretty much unfolded exactly as I thought. 2020 LeBron was not a level above everyone else, in fact his teammate was a bit better than him for the majority of the meaningful playoff games. LeBron was the playmaker, sure but he wasn't the actual best player.

You can't average the two performances when neither his reg season or playoff in the last 3 years has been #1 worthy. He's not the best regular season player anymore and hasn't been for awhile, so either he makes up for it in the postseason by utter destruction above all comparison (which he did in 2018)...or he doesn't (2019-present). In the NBA we live in a what have you done for me lately culture and we give allowances when we have a recent body of work to go on. LeBron has not shown in any series recently that he is the clear best player, in fact a number of guys have been better. So if his peak play isn't the best anymore and we're not even getting that most of the year now.....he's not #1. It was going to happen at some point, he's almost 37.

are you comparing lebron to other players in 2020 or to other lebron seasons?, cause if is the latter then yeah, he is not the best of course

but in 2020? his competitors are

davis (who was comparable in the post season, you have lebron a bit below davis in playoffs i have him slightly above, either way their playoffs run were comparable)

butler (great playoffs but not better than lebron and clearly not as good in regular season)

kawhi (worse regular season + worse playoffs)

giannis (better regular seasom but clearly worse in playoffs)

which one has a clear case over him that year?

giannis if you only focus on reg season, davis if you use only playoffs (and is not clear davis was better there

My point was just that LeBron was not on a separate tier from everyone else in the playoffs and that is important given that he most definitely wasn't the best reg season player, nor was he the year before when he didn't make the playoffs. I also think him playing with Davis in an underrated factor, Davis takes a lot of pressure off of him to be the guy now and I'll explain why this is important.

In 2018 LeBron had one all-star teammate who was nowhere near him in impact. He went against the warriors in the finals and while he had no chance to win that series, he was still the definitive best player on the floor. The same thing just happened with Kevin Durant.

Since then we have not seen that from LeBron. In fact, without Davis he hasn't looked like a top 5 player because he's asked to do more than just be a facilitator and occasional defender and at his age that's asking a lot. AD really dominated the playoffs up to the finals and in the early part of the series where the Lakers hit the Heat in the mouth and let them know who the better team was. LeBron did play better down the stretch but he had a guy taking enormous pressure off of him (like we say for KD in the 17 and 18 finals with Curry) and he still wasn't heads and shoulders above the field. Actually butler went toe to toe with him and had wayyyyyy less help, which frankly to me is more impressive. It was not a convincing "I'm still the guy performance" to be brutally honest. He was great, dont get me wrong, but I'm not going to overlook the fact that he wasn't really the best player all year (or the year before) and then has a stretch of games where he is kind of the best against a depleted and much inferior Heat team and has a teammate making life wayyy easier on him compared to the field. It's not a knock on LeBron for having AD, it's just that his dominance has not been demonstrable recently without him, key word being recently. When we've seen LeBron without AD he hasn't looked like the best in the league, which is important because win or lose, if you want to be considered the best you have to look utterly dominant regardless of who is on the floor with you. I.e., Steph curry all year long with that horrible warriors team and just this last week Kevin Durant. LeBron has not done that in years. Not saying he's been bad, of course not, but he's not been the absolute best which is what we're talking about and I think it's time everyone catches up and realizes he doesn't have that crown anymore.

i get all that, lebron was not the same as peak lebron and it was not his best year. my arguments is more that it does very well against the field of that specific year

he didnt dominate regular seasom like giannis but giannis had a meh playoffs

he needed davis, but davis also needed lebron, otherwise he was not leading the lakers to impressive results when lebron was ****

under the arguments you are using it should be butler who was #1 in 2020, third most impressive playoffs run + the 1 and 2 playing together

do you think butler was the best player in the world that year?