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Djoker wrote:I'm talking about seasons where the players in question aren't even the best players in the league and not even strong MVP candidates or they have terrible postseasons. Half of Lebron's career namely 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2019 and 2021. For Jordan we can say 2002 and 2003.
DCasey91 wrote:migya wrote:DCasey91 wrote:
See that’s the thing we actually have a multitude of metrics, on/offs to go by rather than subjective analysis. Grant W/S’s is very similar to Horford W/S’s Bulls/Hawks tenure. He also had a 14 W/S season and that was the Bulls 3rd best player.
Thanks but subjective. no really looking for an objective view here.
Is 20 something Pippen/Grant similar to 20 something Horford/PG. It’s around the ballpark
Specifically 91-93 Age for Age between the four. I think for me there’s a lot of context missing here.
Haven’t checked all the metrics/impacts but I would hazard to guess it’d be similar.
Now to the subjective view especially on narrative.
Pippen + Grant? MJ made them (that’s hogwash btw)
Horford + PG? Lebron has a stacked team
Pointing out one year of Wade and disregarding 13/14.
See all the BS there?
Wade had to play second to Lebron and within two years he regressed a fair bit, PG would do worse, particularly playing the same position as Lebron. PG was at his best as the number one scoring option on a team, even with Westbrook he had better success that way. Horford could fit like Horace did but he wouldn't score anymore than Horace did with two other big score like that, though in Atlanta early in his care he got his with good but lesser scorers because he was a better option in some situations than all of them, which Horace never was and Horford wouldn't be with Lebron and PG. Bosh was a far better scorer and even rebounder, quite good defender himself, so Horford is not as good.
Lebron wouldn't have won as much with PG and Horford instead of Wade and Bosh.
My point is this. Lebron for sure would have won with the equivalent of Grant/Pippen. All in their mid 20’s. Peak ages
These are all peak timelines exactly what MJ had we are not even accounting for continuity coaching/management etc
Hence my overall statement about the being three of them in their 20’s.
7 years can account for a players half career or much more than that but in MJ terms it was more. Fact is MJ had more and better help earlier on that’s all.
It’s a short straw saying James would lower their stats when MJ did the exact same thing :/.
migya wrote:DCasey91 wrote:migya wrote:
Wade had to play second to Lebron and within two years he regressed a fair bit, PG would do worse, particularly playing the same position as Lebron. PG was at his best as the number one scoring option on a team, even with Westbrook he had better success that way. Horford could fit like Horace did but he wouldn't score anymore than Horace did with two other big score like that, though in Atlanta early in his care he got his with good but lesser scorers because he was a better option in some situations than all of them, which Horace never was and Horford wouldn't be with Lebron and PG. Bosh was a far better scorer and even rebounder, quite good defender himself, so Horford is not as good.
Lebron wouldn't have won as much with PG and Horford instead of Wade and Bosh.
My point is this. Lebron for sure would have won with the equivalent of Grant/Pippen. All in their mid 20’s. Peak ages
These are all peak timelines exactly what MJ had we are not even accounting for continuity coaching/management etc
Hence my overall statement about the being three of them in their 20’s.
7 years can account for a players half career or much more than that but in MJ terms it was more. Fact is MJ had more and better help earlier on that’s all.
It’s a short straw saying James would lower their stats when MJ did the exact same thing :/.
As I said, Horace was not a star and benefited from playing with stars his whole career and from 99 he wasn't a good role player. He was much better playing with Jordan. There is no comparison to Bosh and marginally with Horford. Pippen without Jordan didn't e exactly break records or become a Larry Bird type.
Djoker wrote:I'm talking about seasons where the players in question aren't even the best players in the league and not even strong MVP candidates or they have terrible postseasons.. Half of Lebron's career namely 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2019 and 2021. For Jordan we can say 2002 and 2003.
falcolombardi wrote:i honestly dont see what the issue is
lebron can be good defensively while conserving Energy in regular season. and even better in the playoffs while spending Energy. the probable right answer is that he is good in both but even mpre so in playoffs
and by looking at team results is not like lakers struggled in defense during regular season
all players start being selective with the Energy spent in defense as they get older, more injured or carry bigger offensive loada
it happened with jordan, kawhi, lebron, kobe, etc
VanWest82 wrote:falcolombardi wrote:i honestly dont see what the issue is
lebron can be good defensively while conserving Energy in regular season. and even better in the playoffs while spending Energy. the probable right answer is that he is good in both but even mpre so in playoffs
and by looking at team results is not like lakers struggled in defense during regular season
all players start being selective with the Energy spent in defense as they get older, more injured or carry bigger offensive loada
it happened with jordan, kawhi, lebron, kobe, etc
I'm switching threads so the Lebron thread can remain a safe space for Lebron fans.
The issue is that so many of his fans try to argue that Lebron is the main guy responsible for Lakers defense when it's clear in my view that he's not. Rather, it's been AD, Caruso, Javale, Dwight, Gasol, Danny Green, Wes Mattews, Avery Bradley, Schroder, etc., who have done all the heavy lifting. Lebron just showed up in the big games. This goes all the way back to the end of his Miami run.
And I'm not saying he's a bad defender (though we've seen him be that and the internet made fun of him for it) but the idea that he's been anything more than a smart veteran who's mostly conserving his energy for offense these last 8 years is nonsense. i watched the end of MJ and Kobe's careers. They were way more active than Lebron.
falcolombardi wrote:VanWest82 wrote:falcolombardi wrote:i honestly dont see what the issue is
lebron can be good defensively while conserving Energy in regular season. and even better in the playoffs while spending Energy. the probable right answer is that he is good in both but even mpre so in playoffs
and by looking at team results is not like lakers struggled in defense during regular season
all players start being selective with the Energy spent in defense as they get older, more injured or carry bigger offensive loada
it happened with jordan, kawhi, lebron, kobe, etc
I'm switching threads so the Lebron thread can remain a safe space for Lebron fans.
The issue is that so many of his fans try to argue that Lebron is the main guy responsible for Lakers defense when it's clear in my view that he's not. Rather, it's been AD, Caruso, Javale, Dwight, Gasol, Danny Green, Wes Mattews, Avery Bradley, Schroder, etc., who have done all the heavy lifting. Lebron just showed up in the big games. This goes all the way back to the end of his Miami run.
And I'm not saying he's a bad defender (though we've seen him be that and the internet made fun of him for it) but the idea that he's been anything more than a smart veteran who's mostly conserving his energy for offense these last 8 years is nonsense. i watched the end of MJ and Kobe's careers. They were way more active than Lebron.
if the heavy lifting is done by 8 different players at the same time it stops being heavy lifting
that has been a theme with vogel lakers through injuries, they remain good no matter who is missing games
in a context like that is more like the whole team is good defensively so nobody needs to carry it, only ramp it up a bit for playoffs and key games
which is somethingh we have seen lebron do (and davis of course)
VanWest82 wrote:falcolombardi wrote:VanWest82 wrote:
I'm switching threads so the Lebron thread can remain a safe space for Lebron fans.
The issue is that so many of his fans try to argue that Lebron is the main guy responsible for Lakers defense when it's clear in my view that he's not. Rather, it's been AD, Caruso, Javale, Dwight, Gasol, Danny Green, Wes Mattews, Avery Bradley, Schroder, etc., who have done all the heavy lifting. Lebron just showed up in the big games. This goes all the way back to the end of his Miami run.
And I'm not saying he's a bad defender (though we've seen him be that and the internet made fun of him for it) but the idea that he's been anything more than a smart veteran who's mostly conserving his energy for offense these last 8 years is nonsense. i watched the end of MJ and Kobe's careers. They were way more active than Lebron.
if the heavy lifting is done by 8 different players at the same time it stops being heavy lifting
that has been a theme with vogel lakers through injuries, they remain good no matter who is missing games
in a context like that is more like the whole team is good defensively so nobody needs to carry it, only ramp it up a bit for playoffs and key games
which is somethingh we have seen lebron do (and davis of course)
It's not being done by 8 different players at the same time. I never said that.
But yes, the reason Lakers have been good regardless of who's out there is because they've been stacked with good defenders the last two years.
And yet the Lebron fans have argued numerous times and continue to argue that Lebron is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) reason for their success defensively: his leadership, his communication, his rotations that erase all forms of life before they happen without any corresponding increase in the types of activity measures one might expect to see.
It's even in this thread in various places as a notch against MJ who was actually a consistent effort defender.
Djoker wrote:sansterre wrote:Djoker wrote:
Thought experiment:
Let us imagine that Jordan jumped into the NBA two years earlier. In these two years he played at a low All-Star level before taking a step up in '85. In one of these two years he carries his team into a lopsided matchup and he has a bad series against a great defense. Let us also imagine that he stayed on after '98 and had another three seasons, two in the Top 5 range and one as an All-Star before he retires. He had several playoff series in those three years, some great, some good and some disappointing (because he's getting on in years at this point).
Compare Jordan's real career to the one in my hypothetical.
Which has a better case for GOAT?
Are his extra seasons providing extra value for his career, or are they sullying an otherwise unblemished prime?
There isn't a right or wrong answer, it's like a GOATshach inkblot.
Ok... If Jordan actually had these blemishes than you bet people would discuss them. However you are speculating that he would have these struggles. Considering that rookie Jordan had basically no trouble against a very strong defense Bucks, I don't see why it's a given that one year or two years younger MJ would struggle against strong defenses. He might have struggled but this hypothetical is just that; a hypothetical... And likewise after 1998. The notion that MJ would fall from best in the world to suddenly top 5 level is hypothetical. He might or he might remain as the best player for 2-3 more seasons. We don't know what would have happened...
And besides Lebron had these blemishes in the middle of his prime too
.. 2010, 2011, 2019... It would be like Jordan laying an egg in 1992 or something. It simply never happened.
The bottom line is that Lebron's longevity edge doesn't seem that big when you consider that about half of his seasons are worse than Jordan's worst Bulls' seasons and that Jordan's six year peak from 1988-1993 is better than any version of Lebron.
The4thHorseman wrote:Djoker wrote:sansterre wrote:Thought experiment:
Let us imagine that Jordan jumped into the NBA two years earlier. In these two years he played at a low All-Star level before taking a step up in '85. In one of these two years he carries his team into a lopsided matchup and he has a bad series against a great defense. Let us also imagine that he stayed on after '98 and had another three seasons, two in the Top 5 range and one as an All-Star before he retires. He had several playoff series in those three years, some great, some good and some disappointing (because he's getting on in years at this point).
Compare Jordan's real career to the one in my hypothetical.
Which has a better case for GOAT?
Are his extra seasons providing extra value for his career, or are they sullying an otherwise unblemished prime?
There isn't a right or wrong answer, it's like a GOATshach inkblot.
Ok... If Jordan actually had these blemishes than you bet people would discuss them. However you are speculating that he would have these struggles. Considering that rookie Jordan had basically no trouble against a very strong defense Bucks, I don't see why it's a given that one year or two years younger MJ would struggle against strong defenses. He might have struggled but this hypothetical is just that; a hypothetical... And likewise after 1998. The notion that MJ would fall from best in the world to suddenly top 5 level is hypothetical. He might or he might remain as the best player for 2-3 more seasons. We don't know what would have happened...
And besides Lebron had these blemishes in the middle of his prime too
.. 2010, 2011, 2019... It would be like Jordan laying an egg in 1992 or something. It simply never happened.
The bottom line is that Lebron's longevity edge doesn't seem that big when you consider that about half of his seasons are worse than Jordan's worst Bulls' seasons and that Jordan's six year peak from 1988-1993 is better than any version of Lebron.
In what world do we consider a 16yr player still in his prime, regardless of the sport??
You don't think MJ walking away from the game "in his prime" didn't help him mentally and physically when he decided to return 22mos. later? He said himself he was gassed even before the 93 Finals was over. Him walking away in his prime is definitely a blemish as is after 1998. Strange that a player who was MVP and FMVP would walk away again after only 3 consecutive seasons, but we both know that Phil and Scottie were leaving and MJ had no chance to defende the Bulls title in 99'
falcolombardi wrote:effort is not 1:1 to effectiveness, which is what the whole discussion comes down to
and jordan himself was in defensively stacked teams during his ring years where he didnt have to do the "heavy lifting" either
and while not as visually aparent, leadership and Communication ARE part of defense, i am not sure why you disagree with that notion so much
and positioning, rotation, help defense are more important than on ball activity, that i dont think is Up for debate too much
VanWest82 wrote:falcolombardi wrote:effort is not 1:1 to effectiveness, which is what the whole discussion comes down to
It isn't 1:1 but it's a huge part of it as Lebron himself proves every time he starts giving more effort and plays better.and jordan himself was in defensively stacked teams during his ring years where he didnt have to do the "heavy lifting" either
His second three peat teams were defensively stacked; less so the first time around. I thought his effort was more consistent than Lebron's outside of 09-13. Same with Kobe.and while not as visually aparent, leadership and Communication ARE part of defense, i am not sure why you disagree with that notion so much
I don't believe Lebron is even their leader defensively. AD was in 2020. If anything Marc was last year until the trade. This notion that Lebron is out there telling AD and Marc Gasol who to guard and where to be is laughable.and positioning, rotation, help defense are more important than on ball activity, that i dont think is Up for debate too much
If your positioning and help defense are really that great you'll put yourself in positions to make plays on the ball. I don't think that's up for debate.
migya wrote:The4thHorseman wrote:Djoker wrote:
Ok... If Jordan actually had these blemishes than you bet people would discuss them. However you are speculating that he would have these struggles. Considering that rookie Jordan had basically no trouble against a very strong defense Bucks, I don't see why it's a given that one year or two years younger MJ would struggle against strong defenses. He might have struggled but this hypothetical is just that; a hypothetical... And likewise after 1998. The notion that MJ would fall from best in the world to suddenly top 5 level is hypothetical. He might or he might remain as the best player for 2-3 more seasons. We don't know what would have happened...
And besides Lebron had these blemishes in the middle of his prime too
.. 2010, 2011, 2019... It would be like Jordan laying an egg in 1992 or something. It simply never happened.
The bottom line is that Lebron's longevity edge doesn't seem that big when you consider that about half of his seasons are worse than Jordan's worst Bulls' seasons and that Jordan's six year peak from 1988-1993 is better than any version of Lebron.
In what world do we consider a 16yr player still in his prime, regardless of the sport??
You don't think MJ walking away from the game "in his prime" didn't help him mentally and physically when he decided to return 22mos. later? He said himself he was gassed even before the 93 Finals was over. Him walking away in his prime is definitely a blemish as is after 1998. Strange that a player who was MVP and FMVP would walk away again after only 3 consecutive seasons, but we both know that Phil and Scottie were leaving and MJ had no chance to defend the Bulls title in 99'
Three or four months off every year is alot of time off. Jordan was rusty and out of shape when he returned in 95.He performed cost to his usual level in the playoffs. After 98 he was at retirement age.
Lebron taking games off in this load management farce is having a less load every year.
The4thHorseman wrote:You can't seriously look at his numbers in the 95' ECSF and say he was rusty and out of shape. Like a another poster pointed out on page 8, he avg. close to the same in 96-98 playoffs as he did in the 95 playoffs.
How many other players have there been who retired after winning league MVP and FMVP? There's no such thing as a retirement age. The body and mind tells you when it's time, not an age.
The4thHorseman wrote:migya wrote:The4thHorseman wrote:In what world do we consider a 16yr player still in his prime, regardless of the sport??
You don't think MJ walking away from the game "in his prime" didn't help him mentally and physically when he decided to return 22mos. later? He said himself he was gassed even before the 93 Finals was over. Him walking away in his prime is definitely a blemish as is after 1998. Strange that a player who was MVP and FMVP would walk away again after only 3 consecutive seasons, but we both know that Phil and Scottie were leaving and MJ had no chance to defend the Bulls title in 99'
Three or four months off every year is alot of time off. Jordan was rusty and out of shape when he returned in 95.He performed cost to his usual level in the playoffs. After 98 he was at retirement age.
Lebron taking games off in this load management farce is having a less load every year.
MJ put up 55pts his 5th game back against the number 1 defense in the league NYK. The talk after that was how he hadn't missed a beat after being off for 22mos. Only when they lost in the ECSF is when people like you did a 180 and said he was rusty etc..etc..
You can't seriously look at his numbers in the 95' ECSF and say he was rusty and out of shape. Like a another poster pointed out on page 8, he avg. close to the same in 96-98 playoffs as he did in the 95 playoffs.
How many other players have there been who retired after winning league MVP and FMVP? There's no such thing as a retirement age. The body and mind tells you when it's time, not an age.
sansterre wrote:The4thHorseman wrote:You can't seriously look at his numbers in the 95' ECSF and say he was rusty and out of shape. Like a another poster pointed out on page 8, he avg. close to the same in 96-98 playoffs as he did in the 95 playoffs.
How many other players have there been who retired after winning league MVP and FMVP? There's no such thing as a retirement age. The body and mind tells you when it's time, not an age.
Jordan in the playoffs in '95 was really good, but a +5.8 OBPM is actually the lowest of his whole career (+7.6 his rookie year was #2). And in the regular season his OBPM was closer to his first year with the Wizards than his next worst year (1985).
I think that there were advantages to taking the time off (especially mentally).
But I don't think you can look at those numbers and not appreciate that he was not at 100% in 1995.
falcolombardi wrote:lebron may not be telling marc where to stay but he may be doing it to schroeder, or javale or even caruso, players with worse basketball iq or much less experience
and no, the best outcome of off ball and help defense is not putting yourself in position to block or steal shots
that can easily become block or steal hunting which leads to blown bys, fouls, open shots after passing etc
the idea of defense is to not allow the shot in the first place, being in the right place to make the offensive player abort the play or not find any openings as the shot clock is ending,
rotating off ball to a player who otherwise would be getting open for a easy 3 and by doing that stopping the pass to him altogether is not somethingh that appears as activity in defended field goals despite being more valuable
overating defensive activity is how Marcus Camby won a dpoy over duncan by blocking more shots
or how players like Cooper, alvin roberson or even jordan and gary payton won dpoys over more deserving big men
their great steal totals and being seen consisntently defending on ball are more impressive visually that a big man dissuading attempt at the rim with just positioning and size
sansterre wrote:The4thHorseman wrote:You can't seriously look at his numbers in the 95' ECSF and say he was rusty and out of shape. Like a another poster pointed out on page 8, he avg. close to the same in 96-98 playoffs as he did in the 95 playoffs.
How many other players have there been who retired after winning league MVP and FMVP? There's no such thing as a retirement age. The body and mind tells you when it's time, not an age.
Jordan in the playoffs in '95 was really good, but a +5.8 OBPM is actually the lowest of his whole career (+7.6 his rookie year was #2). And in the regular season his OBPM was closer to his first year with the Wizards than his next worst year (1985).
I think that there were advantages to taking the time off (especially mentally).
But I don't think you can look at those numbers and not appreciate that he was not at 100% in 1995.
sansterre wrote:Djoker wrote:I'm talking about seasons where the players in question aren't even the best players in the league and not even strong MVP candidates or they have terrible postseasons.. Half of Lebron's career namely 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2019 and 2021. For Jordan we can say 2002 and 2003.
Truthfully, I think this angle does a disservice to Jordan.
Jordan loses out on '85, '86 (injury), '94, '95 and obviously 2002 and 2003. So that leaves 1987-1993 and 1996-1998. Ten seasons.
I don't think LeBron's 2004-06 enters into an MVP discussion.
2007 is not quite so clear-cut. He finished #2 in RAPM but played considerably more minutes than the #1 (Duncan) and way more minutes than the #3 (Ginobili) and led the league in VORP by a solid margin. He didn't win the MVP but he probably should have. And his playoffs were pretty strong, averaging a 25/8/8 and a +8.1 BPM. His postseason was a mixed bag: he had a monster series against the Pistons (averaging a +11 BPM for the series and dragging his +3.3 SRS team into the Finals where they definitely didn't belong). But he also had a really bad series against the Spurs, where he had to do way too much against a way better (and smarter) team.
I think 2007 is an obvious MVP candidate season. And his playoffs weren't as strong as they'd be later (+5.7 OBPM is unusually low for playoff LeBron) but I don't really hold the Finals against him too much. His Cavs had zero business being matched up against the '07 Spurs. And the Cavs actually kept it close, only losing by 6 points a game. So, for me, I have no problem counting this as a "strong MVP candidate with a non-terrible postseason" but I can understand if you don't.
And here we are again in 2008. LeBron leads the league in VORP, leads the league in ESPN RPM Wins and while he finishes in the second tier in RAPM (it was KG, then a drop with LeBron, Duncan, Manu, Kobe, Nash and Dirk all together) he played more minutes than the others so, again, I think he's comfortably in "strong MVP candidate" territory. And in the playoffs LeBron puts together a +10 BPM and takes the eventual champion Celtics (one of the best defenses ever) to seven games, averaging above a +8 BPM and leading his Cavs to outscore the Celtics over the series, coming considerably closer to beating them than the Lakers did. 2008 meets your criteria easily.
You've already granted 2009.
In 2010 LeBron was the MVP by a mile; he led the league in every meaningful metric by a considerable margin. In the playoffs he put up an eye-bleeding +11.5 BPM and a +9 BPM against the defending champion Celtics. I don't for a second buy this as a "terrible" playoffs. Sure he had an awful Game 5, but he had two separate games over +20 BPM and had a +9.5 in Game 6. Yeah yeah, he looked "listless" in Game 5, but his overall series (against an ATG-level defense) was excellent. And he was the best player in the league by far. This gets in for me.
2011. LeBron leads the league in VORP, finishes a close second in ESPN's RPM (to Dwight Howard) and finishes a ways behind Dirk in RAPM (though LeBron played enough more minutes that it was close). Certainly a strong MVP case. LeBron's playoffs were really good (+7.1 BPM), but Wade was better and LeBron averages a mere +2 BPM against the Mavs in the Finals. While I don't think this was a "terrible" playoffs, I'm happy to ignore this season for these purposes.
You've conceded 2012-2018 and 2020.
I won't argue 2019.
2021? There's no real case for MVP there. His per-minute stats were certainly competitive, but his minutes were so low that it simply wasn't a thing. And in the playoffs, against the eventual champion of the West, he averaged a +9.2 BPM, certainly excellent. But I don't think he had an MVP case so we're not counting that.
So you've acknowledged nine seasons at this level. 2008 and 2010 seem like they aught to be in. I'll ignore 2007. So where Jordan has ten seasons at this level, LeBron has eleven. Plus more seasons at a sub-GOAT level (adding value). I don't actually think this approach makes Jordan look good. Even if you gave Jordan credit for an MVP-level season in 1985 (I'm not quite there) they'd still be tied, and LeBron has way more seasons to add value than Jordan at that point. Saying "who has the most MVP-level strong-playoff seasons" hurts Jordan, because it makes those seasons sound equivalent, and LeBron has a ton of them.
You're better off sticking to what I think is the stronger argument, that Jordan's best ten seasons were better than LeBron's best ten seasons (which I personally think they were). It doesn't invalidate the Career Value argument, but that was going to be uphill anyways.
But I think ignoring 2008 and 2010 isn't reasonable (both were MVP-level seasons or better and both were strong playoffs).