2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[Special_Puppy]

What was the cause of Looney's steep decline? He was a top 60 player last season.

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[Colbinii]

What was the cause of Looney's steep decline? He was a top 60 player last season.

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Top 60? No shot.

He was 24 MPG Center who was able to develop minimal passing off of Curry's gravity. He is a big body who rebounds exceptionally well and defended at a high enough level where Draymond could court him around the court.

In the post-season he had major strengths and weaknesses. Notably as a weakness, he was absolutely cooked on switches, he struggled when defending the P&R in an actual high-level playoff series and had clear limitations as a player.

Solid minutes eater in the Regular Season, but he isn't really a > tMLE player, and as good as his best days were, the difference between Looney and a Minimum Center isn't going to change your win total for a season or swing a series.

[therealbig3]

. But we aren’t doing him any favors by pretending like that’s top 10 level play

I've missed those who are saying he's playing at a top 10 level in the series. I personally just think there is a big meaty gap between top 10 and he's been terrible. And that he resides comfortably in there.

And I think regardless of role differences, he's also contributed a lot more to Boston than Kyrie has to Dallas. Kyrie isn't finding other ways to contribute while his shots are not falling. He's not having the defensive impact he had in earlier rounds, he's had some bad turnovers, and he's not doing a lot of creation.

It's not just Tatum winning good, Kyrie losing bad.

It’s a reminder that Tatum should be judged by the standards of a top 10 player, and that trying to paint his series thus far as a good performance despite terrible shooting and overall offense is a misrepresentation of what’s happening. Yeah, he’s finding other ways to contribute, great. But it doesn’t make up for the fact that he’s just not getting it done for a player of his caliber whose primary function is to be an efficient volume scorer.

Most players contribute SOMETHING, be it rebounds or defense or assists, so Tatum playing good defense and generating assists out of double teams is expected, no? If he wasn’t even doing that, then why would he even be on the court?

Kyrie being Kyrie and not being much benefit when his shot isn’t falling is kind of who he’s been throughout his career, I don’t really see it as surprising.

[parsnips33]

What was the cause of Looney's steep decline? He was a top 60 player last season.

Read on Twitter

He looked really worn down physically last season. Not that he was ever extremely fluid/athletic but it felt like he lost enough of the marginal stuff that just made him unviable

[Doctor MJ]

I’m all for recognizing when a player is doing more than scoring well to help their team win, but it doesn’t negate the fact that if you can’t score, and your primary job is to score, then you aren’t playing well. Tatum is definitely not playing as badly as the shooting numbers suggests, because he’s making good reads and he’s playing really good defense. But we aren’t doing him any favors by pretending like that’s top 10 level play or that his passing and defense is anywhere elite enough to offset the terrible shooting.

I think winning bias is at play here. Nobody would be giving Tatum his flowers if his team was down 2-0 or even if it was 1-1 and he played exactly the same way. And his team being up 2-0 has a lot to do with his teammates stepping up and Dallas not really having anyone other than Luka stepping up.

Felt like Tatum was trying his hardest to give the game away in game 2, but Jrue and White stepped up and didn’t let that happen.

So first, to be clear, not really looking to weigh in on the top 10 thing, nor am I looking to pretend that Tatum is hitting shots he isn't.

But the whole "if you can't score, and your primary job is to score, then you aren't playing well" thing, this is sticking in my craw a bit.

Why do you think Jason Kidd said that Brown was the best Celtic while having his players give more attention to Tatum?

My sense of it was that Kidd was trying to goad Tatum into being more Mamba-like because that's what the Mavs defense was hoping to defend. And I think that's telling.

While the most impressive scorers are always going to be the guys who don't seem like they can be stopped despite overwhelming defensive pressure, what coaches typically want their players to do is look for the open man - and the assist - when they are being suffocated. And clearly, Tatum is doing that, and often doing that successfully.

Is Tatum a candidate for best scorer or offensive player in the world? No.

Is he the one both his coach and his opponent's coaches recognize to be the best offensive player on the team that just recorded the best ORtg of all-time and has an extremely impressive 14-2 run to start the playoffs? Yes...and of course, he also gets rebounds, plays defense, and plays big minutes with few health concerns.

It'd be lovely for the Celtics if the answer to the first question were "Yes", but I think they're pretty content in their quest to win a title building a team around Tatum as he is, and that's really no small thing for a player to have achieved.

[Cavsfansince84]

It’s a reminder that Tatum should be judged by the standards of a top 10 player, and that trying to paint his series thus far as a good performance despite terrible shooting and overall offense is a misrepresentation of what’s happening. Yeah, he’s finding other ways to contribute, great. But it doesn’t make up for the fact that he’s just not getting it done for a player of his caliber whose primary function is to be an efficient volume scorer.

Most players contribute SOMETHING, be it rebounds or defense or assists, so Tatum playing good defense and generating assists out of double teams is expected, no? If he wasn’t even doing that, then why would he even be on the court?

Kyrie being Kyrie and not being much benefit when his shot isn’t falling is kind of who he’s been throughout his career, I don’t really see it as surprising.

At the same time, you're picking 2 games out of a 3.5 series playoff run so far and his team won both of those games. So a tad early to try and write him off, especially given he's been playing like a top 10 player up until this series. He might still get the fmvp.

[Outside]

You should find solace in the "steph single handedly beat this superteam" agenda

Except he didnt. Jrue whos a way better player than Smart and specially Kp whos better than Williams both combined made us jump to this level. Neither of which were on the 22 team. I mean the 23 team was basically the same as the 22 team w/ a different head coach

I mean the main thing is that Steph's supporting cast in 2022 was pretty great. Wasn't a carry job at all

If 2022 wasn't a carry job by Steph, then there are no carry jobs. Every champion has quality players at least 6-7 deep, and no one player does it by themselves, but if that wasn't a carry job, then there's never been one.

Steph's finals averages
31.2 pts, 6.0 reb, 5.0 ast, 2.0 stl, 2.5 tov
.626 TS%, .437 3pt% on 11.7 att
23.2 GmSc with Wiggins 2nd at 14.1 and no other Warrior above 10

All this despite being the overwhelming focus of the defense and with Draymond being actually bad much of the series and Klay doing pretty well in his return from 2+ years injury recovery but definitely not the Klay he was before.

They got Wiggins at his absolute best, a defensive and rebounding rock, but as the second best scorer at 18.3, his TS% was .515. Third best scorer Klay was 17.0 ppg, .455 TS%.

Steph's signature performance was game 4 in Boston, with the Celtics ahead 2-1. He scored 43 of the Warriors 107 points on 26 shots, including 7-14 on threes to take back the series momentum and essentially break the Celtics. The Warriors won the next two to close it out.

Marcus Smart was DPOY that season, and Robert Williams was freaking awesome. You can say Jrue and Kristaps are better, but it's not by much.

Sorry to distract from the current finals, but I just couldn't let that go.

[Texas Chuck]

I fundamentally disagree Tatum's primary role is to volume score. Yes, he is the team's leading scorer, but there are 2 other 20 point scorers and a 15 point scorer.

Far different from Dallas who is dependent on two guys to score at volume every night. Boston can absolutely win with Tatum having an off shooting night and it doesn't feel unsustainable.

Seems obviously simplistic to just look at shot making and say bad. The same is true for role players whose role is to shoot btw. Making the shots is but a small part of their purpose. Their true purpose is to make teams guard them. a 3&D player can go 1-6 from three and still have played a very good game.

Good quote during the game about Mazulla understanding that variance and just wanting his guys to keep taking the quality shots the offense creates. It becomes a bigger problem when a guy is struggling and so doesn't take the good shot and the offense might not get as good a shot that possession.

The process matters. Results oriented on the shooting can lead you to bad places.

[parsnips33]

Draymond was not bad in that series but yeah pretty much exactly what he said

[jalengreen]

Except he didnt. Jrue whos a way better player than Smart and specially Kp whos better than Williams both combined made us jump to this level. Neither of which were on the 22 team. I mean the 23 team was basically the same as the 22 team w/ a different head coach

I mean the main thing is that Steph's supporting cast in 2022 was pretty great. Wasn't a carry job at all

If 2022 wasn't a carry job by Steph, then there are no carry jobs. Every champion has quality players at least 6-7 deep, and no one player does it by themselves, but if that wasn't a carry job, then there's never been one.

Steph's finals averages
31.2 pts, 6.0 reb, 5.0 ast, 2.0 stl, 2.5 tov
.626 TS%, .437 3pt% on 11.7 att
23.2 GmSc with Wiggins 2nd at 14.1 and no other Warrior above 10

All this despite being the overwhelming focus of the defense and with Draymond being actually bad much of the series and Klay doing pretty well in his return from 2+ years injury recovery but definitely not the Klay he was before.

They got Wiggins at his absolute best, a defensive and rebounding rock, but as the second best scorer at 18.3, his TS% was .515. Third best scorer Klay was 17.0 ppg, .455 TS%.

Steph's signature performance was game 4 in Boston, with the Celtics ahead 2-1. He scored 43 of the Warriors 107 points on 26 shots, including 7-14 on threes to take back the series momentum and essentially break the Celtics. The Warriors won the next two to close it out.

Marcus Smart was DPOY that season, and Robert Williams was freaking awesome. You can say Jrue and Kristaps are better, but it's not by much.

Sorry to distract from the current finals, but I just couldn't let that go.

Was a shame that Rob was hobbled in that series, but he was indeed awesome. Rob had a +30 +/- as a starter while the Celtics were outscored by 24 points overall.

[AEnigma]

Except he didnt. Jrue whos a way better player than Smart and specially Kp whos better than Williams both combined made us jump to this level. Neither of which were on the 22 team. I mean the 23 team was basically the same as the 22 team w/ a different head coach

I mean the main thing is that Steph's supporting cast in 2022 was pretty great. Wasn't a carry job at all

If 2022 wasn't a carry job by Steph, then there are no carry jobs. Every champion has quality players at least 6-7 deep, and no one player does it by themselves, but if that wasn't a carry job, then there's never been one.

Steph's finals averages
31.2 pts, 6.0 reb, 5.0 ast, 2.0 stl, 2.5 tov
.626 TS%, .437 3pt% on 11.7 att
23.2 GmSc with Wiggins 2nd at 14.1 and no other Warrior above 10

All this despite being the overwhelming focus of the defense and with Draymond being actually bad much of the series and Klay doing pretty well in his return from 2+ years injury recovery but definitely not the Klay he was before.

They got Wiggins at his absolute best, a defensive and rebounding rock, but as the second best scorer at 18.3, his TS% was .515. Third best scorer Klay was 17.0 ppg, .455 TS%.

I think you need to review more series if you believe that is at all unparalleled in the history of the league. And of course it is also very Finals specific, and a large part of why it was Finals specific was because of a defensive scheme that may as well have explicitly encouraged Steph to shoulder a heavy scoring load.

Marcus Smart was DPOY that season, and Robert Williams was freaking awesome.

Marcus Smart won DPoY because Rob Williams got injured (and never fully recovered), but the Celtics “needed” to be rewarded.

You can say Jrue and Kristaps are better, but it's not by much.

Seems like roughly 3 SRS worth to me.

Sorry to distract from the current finals, but I just couldn't let that go.

Of course not, we must never forget how few guards would have a tougher go at a title with a top two defence around them and a strong-performing bench.

[tone wone]

It’s a reminder that Tatum should be judged by the standards of a top 10 player, and that trying to paint his series thus far as a good performance despite terrible shooting and overall offense is a misrepresentation of what’s happening. Yeah, he’s finding other ways to contribute, great. But it doesn’t make up for the fact that he’s just not getting it done for a player of his caliber whose primary function is to be an efficient volume scorer.

Most players contribute SOMETHING, be it rebounds or defense or assists, so Tatum playing good defense and generating assists out of double teams is expected, no? If he wasn’t even doing that, then why would he even be on the court?

Kyrie being Kyrie and not being much benefit when his shot isn’t falling is kind of who he’s been throughout his career, I don’t really see it as surprising.

At the same time, you're picking 2 games out of a 3.5 series playoff run so far and his team won both of those games. So a tad early to try and write him off, especially given he's been playing like a top 10 player up until this series. He might still get the fmvp.

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He's a brick-layer on a team that is damn near brick-proof.

The passing has really popped this postseason though. That's been a tangible improvement this year and is why he's actually top 10ish level now.

[Outside]

Draymond was not bad in that series but yeah pretty much exactly what he said

Bad was an overstatement on my part, but he was certainly bad by Draymond standards. For whatever reason, he was in his own head when it came to shooting the ball, even at point blank range. He wasn't Ben Simmons bad but could sniff that territory from where he was. Boston didn't bother guarding him outside of 10 feet.

Draymond's averages that finals.
6.2 pts, 8.0 reb, 6.2 ast, 1.7 stl, .333 FG%, .125 3PT%, .583 FT%, .217 TS%

Not good.

[parsnips33]

Draymond was not bad in that series but yeah pretty much exactly what he said

Bad was an overstatement on my part, but he was certainly bad by Draymond standards. For whatever reason, he was in his own head when it came to shooting the ball, even at point blank range. He wasn't Ben Simmons bad but could sniff that territory from where he was. Boston didn't bother guarding him outside of 10 feet.

Draymond's averages that finals.
6.2 pts, 8.0 reb, 6.2 ast, 1.7 stl, .333 FG%, .125 3PT%, .583 FT%, .217 TS%

Not good.

Definitely not up to his normal standards, and the offense was especially ugly

His defense on Jaylen Brown did feel integral to how GSW eventually turned the series

[Special_Puppy]

Except he didnt. Jrue whos a way better player than Smart and specially Kp whos better than Williams both combined made us jump to this level. Neither of which were on the 22 team. I mean the 23 team was basically the same as the 22 team w/ a different head coach

I mean the main thing is that Steph's supporting cast in 2022 was pretty great. Wasn't a carry job at all

If 2022 wasn't a carry job by Steph, then there are no carry jobs. Every champion has quality players at least 6-7 deep, and no one player does it by themselves, but if that wasn't a carry job, then there's never been one.

Steph's finals averages
31.2 pts, 6.0 reb, 5.0 ast, 2.0 stl, 2.5 tov
.626 TS%, .437 3pt% on 11.7 att
23.2 GmSc with Wiggins 2nd at 14.1 and no other Warrior above 10

All this despite being the overwhelming focus of the defense and with Draymond being actually bad much of the series and Klay doing pretty well in his return from 2+ years injury recovery but definitely not the Klay he was before.

They got Wiggins at his absolute best, a defensive and rebounding rock, but as the second best scorer at 18.3, his TS% was .515. Third best scorer Klay was 17.0 ppg, .455 TS%.

Steph's signature performance was game 4 in Boston, with the Celtics ahead 2-1. He scored 43 of the Warriors 107 points on 26 shots, including 7-14 on threes to take back the series momentum and essentially break the Celtics. The Warriors won the next two to close it out.

Marcus Smart was DPOY that season, and Robert Williams was freaking awesome. You can say Jrue and Kristaps are better, but it's not by much.

Sorry to distract from the current finals, but I just couldn't let that go.

Steph's supporting cast was absolutely *stacked* defensively. They were the third-best defense in the NBA with Draymond missing nearly half of the season. The enormous defensive contribution of Steph's supporting cast doesn't show up in the box score. Steph was absolutely amazing in that finals series, but its revisionist history to suggest that it was a carry job

[OhayoKD]

Except he didnt. Jrue whos a way better player than Smart and specially Kp whos better than Williams both combined made us jump to this level. Neither of which were on the 22 team. I mean the 23 team was basically the same as the 22 team w/ a different head coach

I mean the main thing is that Steph's supporting cast in 2022 was pretty great. Wasn't a carry job at all

If 2022 wasn't a carry job by Steph, then there are no carry jobs. Every champion has quality players at least 6-7 deep, and no one player does it by themselves, but if that wasn't a carry job, then there's never been one.

2016, 2003, 1994, and 1969 were all carry jobs by this standard. It seems you're just neglecting defense and non-box offense(ex: draymond being a co-primary ball handler and a floor general bolsters curry's effeciency and allows him to roam off ball in the first place)

[parsnips33]

What are the actual carry jobs? I'm gonna assume every single Lebron season are there any others?

[parsnips33]

I mean the main thing is that Steph's supporting cast in 2022 was pretty great. Wasn't a carry job at all

If 2022 wasn't a carry job by Steph, then there are no carry jobs. Every champion has quality players at least 6-7 deep, and no one player does it by themselves, but if that wasn't a carry job, then there's never been one.

Steph's finals averages
31.2 pts, 6.0 reb, 5.0 ast, 2.0 stl, 2.5 tov
.626 TS%, .437 3pt% on 11.7 att
23.2 GmSc with Wiggins 2nd at 14.1 and no other Warrior above 10

All this despite being the overwhelming focus of the defense and with Draymond being actually bad much of the series and Klay doing pretty well in his return from 2+ years injury recovery but definitely not the Klay he was before.

They got Wiggins at his absolute best, a defensive and rebounding rock, but as the second best scorer at 18.3, his TS% was .515. Third best scorer Klay was 17.0 ppg, .455 TS%.

Steph's signature performance was game 4 in Boston, with the Celtics ahead 2-1. He scored 43 of the Warriors 107 points on 26 shots, including 7-14 on threes to take back the series momentum and essentially break the Celtics. The Warriors won the next two to close it out.

Marcus Smart was DPOY that season, and Robert Williams was freaking awesome. You can say Jrue and Kristaps are better, but it's not by much.

Sorry to distract from the current finals, but I just couldn't let that go.

Steph's supporting cast was absolutely *stacked* defensively. They were the third-best defense in the NBA with Draymond missing nearly half of the season. The enormous defensive contribution of Steph's supporting cast doesn't show up in the box score. Steph was absolutely amazing in that finals series, but its revisionist history to suggest that it was a carry job

Where do you rank the 22 Warriors defensively all-time?

[Colbinii]

The Warriors 2022 Run was interesting. Their offense struggled against the two competent defensive teams [Memphis and Boston] and then absolutely lit-up the defensive sieve's in Dallas and Denver [Both these series were shootouts where Golden State's defense showed resistance while neither Denver nor Dallas had the personnel to show resistance].

Difficult title run to assess given half the series were these lower scoring, grind it out series [Boston and Memphis] and then 2 series where 1 team only could play 1/2 of the ball [Denver and Dallas].

[eminence]

Steph/Dray largely still had it. I'm of the opinion Dray had declined more from his peak than Steph and slightly prefer Steph at peak, so a #1/#2 situation for me, but I'm not impressed with that crew from #3 on down. Wiggins had it that season, but Wiggins having it for 1 season in his career is partially a complement to the others, he's the definition of not having it. 4 on down were very very limited players - post-injury Klay, Poole, Looney, OPJ, GPII.

I remember posters getting excited about Payton II being the next great GS guard, thinking GS had stolen some super prospect instead of finding a role for a near 30 year old 6'2 PF.

Overall I'm pretty darn comfortable with calling it a carry, there's a couple heavier championship carries, but not many.