2019-20 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3841 » by E-Balla » Thu Oct 1, 2020 6:33 pm

Joey Wheeler wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:
What exactly is the Lakers "paradigm"? I don't think "hoping the top 2 players in the world, who happen to have perfect synergy skill-wise, decide to team up in our franchise" is going to be a paradigm in the league going forward...


They're bullying everybody with their front court. The league's been getting smaller in the years since Shaq stopped being a threat. They Lakers may be about to make bigger guys back in demand again. At the very least, every team that wants to be a contender is going to have to ask themselves how they can cope with the Lakers' power game.


So you think the way to counter the Lakers is to put big bodies on the floor like teams did to contain Shaq?

I completely disagree with this, going big will be futile unless teams can clone Anthony Davis. The Lakers can field a really big team because of what Lebron and AD bring, especially the latter. AD is a center and a wing at the same time: on offense, he's the best off ball player we've seen and can get his points without really stepping on the impact of perimeter players, but he can also do a Kevin Durant impersonation and just drill contested midrange shots all day. On defense, well he's the best and most versatile defender I've ever seen: we often talk about players "being able to guard 1 to 5", with AD this is actually true, he can actually guard both Jokic and James Harden; in fact in the Rockets series he was the only guy the Lakers trusted to guard Harden with no help. This versatility is what allows the Lakers to do everything they do on defense; you can either play Davis as your primary rim protector or have him guard on the perimeter and act as a secondary rim protector, this allows you of course to add extra size to your lineup. Someone like current Dwight Howard would be completely unplayable in any other strong playoff team: he can't be the main big for a team and 2-big lineups tend to sacrifice far too much athleticism/shooting/spacing/court coverage/etc... But with Davis on the floor you can actually field an extra big and not sacrifice any of that.

Then there's Lebron: he's a point guard in the body of a center, he can protect the rim... you pair with AD and the Lakers basically don't have a small ball lineup. There's no "small ball" with Lebron and AD: the Lakers have a big physical lineup and a bigger even more physical lineup. Usually teams have to choose between size and skill, but with Lebron and AD on the roster the Lakers can field huge lineups without sacrificing skill; they can field 2-big lineups and have no issues chasing guys like Harden or Murray around the perimeter.

In short, the Lakers can field 2-big lineups because they have Anthony Davis and they can put massive lineups on the floor because of Lebron and AD. Unless teams can clone AD, going big for the sake of it won't help, big stiffs will be abused by Lebron and AD. AD is not Shaq, if you put a big stiff on him, he will take him to the perimeter and abuse him and he'll make his free throws; Lebron will mercilessly hunt him on switches as well.

Now, if you're planning to challenge the Lakers, you're going to need size to do it, we agree on that. But I don't think that means bigs that weren't in demand previously will now suddenly be; the kind of size you need is size accompanied by excellent skill. If you can't find a way to go big without sacrificing skill like the Lakers, you're better off trying to win in a shootout rather than playing stiffs in a futile attempt to match the Lakers frontcourt.

But there's other bigs that can't be ran off the floor too. Embiid on a team with a coach/GM smart enough to realize you need 3 wings next to Simmons and Embiid would be able to have a similar impact. Bam can be great at it if Miami had literally any other big man that could possibly play big or was good (but instead they got Kelly). KAT is a terrible defender overall but he's actually solid on the perimeter. Next to someone similar to Clint Capela or Mitch he could be good. KP if there was someone like Tristan Thompson maybe they'd be able to hang.

Like Doc said teams need to remember to still have the ability to go big. You can sit Capela/TT if you need to have 5 shooters on offense like LA does with Dwight but it seems like every team with a switchable big uses that as an excuse to have no other serviceable big on the roster. Minny only has Dieng on the roster with KAT and he doesn't play much with KAT at all because he's not good enough to cover KAT's terrible interior defense. The Lakers still got Javale and Dwight to go next to AD, making sure he could go full games without playing a minute at C if needed. Can't say the same for any other great switchable bigs.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3842 » by Peregrine01 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 7:13 pm

MisterHibachi wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=19

This is going to be interesting.


Good God. I feel sorry for Nash. Still, I love Nash so much that I hope the Nets succeed, even though I can't stand Kyrie or KD.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3843 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Oct 1, 2020 8:20 pm

Joey Wheeler wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:
What exactly is the Lakers "paradigm"? I don't think "hoping the top 2 players in the world, who happen to have perfect synergy skill-wise, decide to team up in our franchise" is going to be a paradigm in the league going forward...


They're bullying everybody with their front court. The league's been getting smaller in the years since Shaq stopped being a threat. They Lakers may be about to make bigger guys back in demand again. At the very least, every team that wants to be a contender is going to have to ask themselves how they can cope with the Lakers' power game.


So you think the way to counter the Lakers is to put big bodies on the floor like teams did to contain Shaq?

I completely disagree with this, going big will be futile unless teams can clone Anthony Davis. The Lakers can field a really big team because of what Lebron and AD bring, especially the latter. AD is a center and a wing at the same time: on offense, he's the best off ball player we've seen and can get his points without really stepping on the impact of perimeter players, but he can also do a Kevin Durant impersonation and just drill contested midrange shots all day. On defense, well he's the best and most versatile defender I've ever seen: we often talk about players "being able to guard 1 to 5", with AD this is actually true, he can actually guard both Jokic and James Harden; in fact in the Rockets series he was the only guy the Lakers trusted to guard Harden with no help. This versatility is what allows the Lakers to do everything they do on defense; you can either play Davis as your primary rim protector or have him guard on the perimeter and act as a secondary rim protector, this allows you of course to add extra size to your lineup. Someone like current Dwight Howard would be completely unplayable in any other strong playoff team: he can't be the main big for a team and 2-big lineups tend to sacrifice far too much athleticism/shooting/spacing/court coverage/etc... But with Davis on the floor you can actually field an extra big and not sacrifice any of that.

Then there's Lebron: he's a point guard in the body of a center, he can protect the rim... you pair with AD and the Lakers basically don't have a small ball lineup. There's no "small ball" with Lebron and AD: the Lakers have a big physical lineup and a bigger even more physical lineup. Usually teams have to choose between size and skill, but with Lebron and AD on the roster the Lakers can field huge lineups without sacrificing skill; they can field 2-big lineups and have no issues chasing guys like Harden or Murray around the perimeter.

In short, the Lakers can field 2-big lineups because they have Anthony Davis and they can put massive lineups on the floor because of Lebron and AD. Unless teams can clone AD, going big for the sake of it won't help, big stiffs will be abused by Lebron and AD. AD is not Shaq, if you put a big stiff on him, he will take him to the perimeter and abuse him and he'll make his free throws; Lebron will mercilessly hunt him on switches as well.

Now, if you're planning to challenge the Lakers, you're going to need size to do it, we agree on that. But I don't think that means bigs that weren't in demand previously will now suddenly be; the kind of size you need is size accompanied by excellent skill. If you can't find a way to go big without sacrificing skill like the Lakers, you're better off trying to win in a shootout rather than playing stiffs in a futile attempt to match the Lakers frontcourt.


I'm not giving my opinion about what teams should do, I'm saying what they may do.

The obvious approach to battling size is with size. Teams will consider it. I don't be surprised if a contender ends up trading for Joel Embiid with this in mind.

You're quite correct that another approach to emphasize the contrast and hope you get more from the mismatch than they do.

Either way I'd emphasize that teams adjusting to Shaq didn't stop Shaq from winning...which is precisely why he defined the era as he did.

Re: you need size with skill. Always, but there's a question of what your priority is, and perhaps more important than the literal matchups is the perception of "the ideal". The ideal basketball player and strategy has varied a lot in the past century, and I'm saying that seeing a team win with "smashmouth" play will likely move the NBA in more of a smashmouth direction.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3844 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Oct 1, 2020 8:25 pm

MisterHibachi wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=19

This is going to be interesting.


If Nash had asked my opinion about this job I'd have said "Run away as fast as you can." Maybe it will all work out, but to me Kyrie is a danger to anyone who relies upon him.

I also have to say that when people say to cut him slack because of stuff in his life, not of that means a thing to me because the issue is specifically a tendency toward narcissism. Do narcissists get depressed? Sure, but if you try to help them, they're going to hurt you.

Also specifically, Kyrie talks like he understand a) basketball, b) civil rights, and c) physics better than anyone else. What you know when you meet someone like that is that they don't understand how to even begin understanding things. What they do is start from the conclusion that seems appealing to them in some way and work backwards.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3845 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Oct 1, 2020 8:28 pm

yoyoboy wrote:Kyrie has become so unlikeable over the years. It's crazy considering he started off being one of the most well-liked guys in the league.

He's just tanked public perception of him (and perception by more hardcore fans too) ever since he hit that shot in 2016. It's been downhill ever since.


I mean, I thought LeBron was a fool for getting in bed with him in 2014. The root of his appeal is clear - beautiful style and swagger - but he's literally never shown any ability to think beyond himself.

Personally I just see enough other people are seeing this around the NBA that he doesn't end up destroying the NBA with something akin to this "I'll do anything for civil rights, let's not play basketball" routine. (To be clear, if Jaylen Brown retires tomorrow and devotes his life to civil rights I'll respect the hell out of him, but Kyrie is not Brown.)
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3846 » by Dupp » Thu Oct 1, 2020 9:33 pm

Kyrie was never likeable we just wanted him to be. Honestly he was a drama queen in Cleveland from day one. He’s only gotten worse the more we’ve heard from him.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3847 » by Dupp » Thu Oct 1, 2020 9:34 pm

Regardless of who (if anyone in particular) he’s talking about I think this is interesting insight from an athlete.


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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3848 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Oct 1, 2020 9:34 pm

I've disliked Kyrie way more when he was a Cav, at least now I can take solace in other people hating him.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3849 » by Dupp » Thu Oct 1, 2020 9:37 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:I've disliked Kyrie way more when he was a Cav, at least now I can take solace in other people hating him.




There was once a whole Dion vs Kyrie thing in Cleveland. Even though Kyrie was clearly the better and more talented player a lot of cavs fans were team Dion for that. That’s how unlikable Kyrie was and also how selfish a player he was because we all liked the fact Dion was much more of a team player.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3850 » by therealbig3 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 9:42 pm

Whatever man, I'm gonna root for my Nets regardless, and hope Nash is the 2nd coming of Kerr lol.

We should win a bunch of RS games at least...hopefully.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3851 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Oct 1, 2020 9:43 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Whatever man, I'm gonna root for my Nets regardless, and hope Nash is the 2nd coming of Kerr lol.

We should win a bunch of RS games at least...hopefully.

You're a Nets fan? Man...it's been some hard times for you this decade
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3852 » by Dupp » Thu Oct 1, 2020 9:48 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Whatever man, I'm gonna root for my Nets regardless, and hope Nash is the 2nd coming of Kerr lol.

We should win a bunch of RS games at least...hopefully.



The potential is there for them to be really good. The potential is also there for things to go a little sour too. But nets are in a great position with some really good assets too. Amazing job they’ve done recently.



I never liked Kyrie from 2015-17 either but it didn’t change my viewing too much as a fan. Frustrating at times but still enjoyed the ride and he ended up being a huge factor in a title. So it doesn’t really matter.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3853 » by therealbig3 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 9:56 pm

I'll keep tracking playoff offenses with the best offensive player on the court for teams that make conference finals runs or deeper, I just find it really interesting to compare. Recently, there's more data available as there's more on/off data going back before 01 now, so I'll have to take a look at that.

20 Nuggets with Jokic on: 115.5 Orating vs 108.1 Drating (+7.4) over 19 games
20 Celtics with Tatum on: 111.8 Orating vs 107.5 Drating (+4.3) over 17 games

Average for all conference finalists with their best player on going back to 01 is +5.9. Tatum had his issues, so not too surprising that the Celtics offense struggled a bit. Jokic with a really strong performance throughout the playoffs. Went up against two excellent defensive teams (Clippers and Lakers), and Jazz with Gobert are no slouch either.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3854 » by therealbig3 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 9:59 pm

Should check for defense as well tbh. I always figured that it would be a lot less reliable, because opposing offenses would be much more affected by injuries to key offensive players than injuries to key defensive players, since defense imo at least is much more easily shored up than an offense without their best offensive player.

For example, the 2015 Warriors had a lot of injuries to opposing teams' best offensive players, most notably the Finals. And their offense wasn't all that great in that playoff run. So I'm expecting their defense will look GOAT-level...but how reliable is that, when opposing offenses weren't rolling with the players that led their RS offense?

Still, it can still give a snapshot of playoff defenses, and we can always apply the context to the numbers.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3855 » by limbo » Thu Oct 1, 2020 10:05 pm

Eh, if i was looking to be a head coach in the NBA, i would take a talented team with headcases over coaching a lottery or even treadmill team with no upside as well, any day of the week.

This is a big shlong move by Nash, and i respect it. Go big or go home. Nash is in a position where his legacy, identity or well-being as a person doesn't depend on how he does as a head coach. What's the worst thing that can happen? The Nets start off 2-14 and he gets fired? Big deal. Ok, that might be a bit embarrassing, but he's still Steve Nash at the end of the day, and wouldn't be the first mastermind PG that failed as a coach.

What, do y'all think Nash has coaching aspiration/passion and he's invested to the point he'd want to coach some garbage bottom tier team? No. He's not that desperate to make it, to waste his time doing that, because he's Steve Nash.

Besides, most coaching gigs you're going to be dealing with and managing various types of personalities/egos anyway. It comes with the territory, there's no avoid this. What, would the Clippers job and dealing with that bunch be easier for Nash? How about coaching the Wizards and dealing with a team that's losing 80% of their games? How about coaching the Knicks and dealing with that circus?
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3856 » by Dupp » Thu Oct 1, 2020 10:06 pm

Why does the nba re hash so many head coaches? There’s barely ever any fresh faces for head coaches and I bet there are options out there if teams would take a risk.

Look at nurse. Unproven as a head coach, obviously they knew what he was about but I’m sure there are many more people out there with credentials.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3857 » by therealbig3 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 10:07 pm

Dupp wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:Whatever man, I'm gonna root for my Nets regardless, and hope Nash is the 2nd coming of Kerr lol.

We should win a bunch of RS games at least...hopefully.



The potential is there for them to be really good. The potential is also there for things to go a little sour too. But nets are in a great position with some really good assets too. Amazing job they’ve done recently.



I never liked Kyrie from 2015-17 either but it didn’t change my viewing too much as a fan. Frustrating at times but still enjoyed the ride and he ended up being a huge factor in a title. So it doesn’t really matter.


Yeah I give Marks a lot of credit, he came into a dumpster fire and turned it around really nicely. We've found a lot of diamonds in the rough and now have some really good assets at our disposal, in addition to Kyrie and Durant.

IMO, Marks should get consideration for EOY, especially if the Nets actually do well in the RS and win 55+ games. We have a roster with a good mix of veterans and youth, picked up a bunch of talent that nobody else wanted who are legit contributors now (Dinwiddie and Harris), mid to late 1st rounders that can be pretty good and if nothing else are valuable trade assets right now (Levert and Allen), and were able to sign two stars like Kyrie and Durant to add to that. Not to mention how we turned D'Angelo Russell into an All-Star and had a surprise playoff appearance last year.

And Marks engineered that after inheriting an absolute train wreck from Billy King: a loser team with no draft picks.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3858 » by therealbig3 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 10:11 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:Whatever man, I'm gonna root for my Nets regardless, and hope Nash is the 2nd coming of Kerr lol.

We should win a bunch of RS games at least...hopefully.

You're a Nets fan? Man...it's been some hard times for you this decade


Celtics owe us a beer, that's for sure lol. :lol:
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3859 » by Dupp » Thu Oct 1, 2020 10:13 pm

therealbig3 wrote:
Dupp wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:Whatever man, I'm gonna root for my Nets regardless, and hope Nash is the 2nd coming of Kerr lol.

We should win a bunch of RS games at least...hopefully.



The potential is there for them to be really good. The potential is also there for things to go a little sour too. But nets are in a great position with some really good assets too. Amazing job they’ve done recently.



I never liked Kyrie from 2015-17 either but it didn’t change my viewing too much as a fan. Frustrating at times but still enjoyed the ride and he ended up being a huge factor in a title. So it doesn’t really matter.


Yeah I give Marks a lot of credit, he came into a dumpster fire and turned it around really nicely. We've found a lot of diamonds in the rough and now have some really good assets at our disposal, in addition to Kyrie and Durant.

IMO, Marks should get consideration for EOY, especially if the Nets actually do well in the RS and win 55+ games. We have a roster with a good mix of veterans and youth, picked up a bunch of talent that nobody else wanted who are legit contributors now (Dinwiddie and Harris), mid to late 1st rounders that can be pretty good and if nothing else are valuable trade assets right now (Levert and Allen), and were able to sign two stars like Kyrie and Durant to add to that. Not to mention how we turned D'Angelo Russell into an All-Star and had a surprise playoff appearance last year.

And Marks engineered that after inheriting an absolute train wreck from Billy King: a loser team with no draft picks.


For sure everything he’s done has been golden. Also Kyrie and KD choosing Brooklyn over Knicks is almost definitely because of the great management and better position they’ve found themselves in. It’s not like lebron who chose LA because he wanted to play for the Lakers I believe it was a huge factor.

They’ll be an Interesting team to follow to say the least and yeah Marks should definitely be in the thick of EOTY
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3860 » by Peregrine01 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 10:28 pm

Just wondering aloud here ... but is Kyrie the biggest celebrity example of millenialism right now? Entitlement, use of virtue signalling as a tool to absolve everything, imagined intellectualism disguised as "wokeness", obstinate belief in their own views despite vast ignorance, etc., etc.

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