2019-20 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3981 » by Goudelock » Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:08 am

70sFan wrote:...


Am I crazy for thinking that Dwight Howard is more or less completing the new-age Bob McAdoo career arc?

Think about it: He was a supremely talented, MVP-caliber center for the first part of his career. Then he forced a trade to a big-market team (LA for Howard, New York for Big Mac). After that flamed out he began bouncing around the league for several years as a locker-room disruptor who could still put up decent stats. And now he's about to win a title on the Lakers as the backup bigman who plays 15 very impactful minutes a game while seemingly being a decent locker room presence. Seems like a plausible thing to think, right?
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3982 » by 70sFan » Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:22 am

Goudelock wrote:
70sFan wrote:...


Am I crazy for thinking that Dwight Howard is more or less completing the new-age Bob McAdoo career arc?

Think about it: He was a supremely talented, MVP-caliber center for the first part of his career. Then he forced a trade to a big-market team (LA for Howard, New York for Big Mac). After that flamed out he began bouncing around the league for several years as a locker-room disruptor who could still put up decent stats. And now he's about to win a title on the Lakers as the backup bigman who plays 15 very impactful minutes a game while seemingly being a decent locker room presence. Seems like a plausible thing to think, right?

You're not wrong at all and I'm shocked I didn't think about this comparison before!
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3983 » by 70sFan » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:45 am

James has one of his finest finals games in whole career and that says a lot. Ironically, he lost this game just like game 1 of 2018 finals.

Butler is amazing, I don't care about RS at this point - he has to be included in top 5. He's been killing Lakers defense and he's amazing defensively. He proved that he needed one game adjustment against Davis coverage.

Duncan Robinson had also outstanding game, very Reggie-esque. I hope to see more games like that from him in that series. Bam has been bad on offense, but it looks like he's not himself. Game 6 will be a must-watch.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3984 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:48 am

Davis body is starting to break down. Lakers need to end it quick.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3985 » by GSP » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:52 am

Cant believe there are ppl that actually were trying to say Bam was the Heat's best player over Jimmy :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3986 » by 70sFan » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:00 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:Davis body is starting to break down. Lakers need to end it quick.

It's true, but we have to remember that they are still up 3-2 and they have James. They are still huge favorites.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3987 » by Blackmill » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:02 am

It's sad that the Lakers didn't win this game since LeBron had a GOAT-level finals game. On the other hand, these last two games have been the most fun to watch all season, so I welcome another. Hopefully both teams can heal up during the break. AD did not look 100%.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3988 » by GSP » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:05 am

Blackmill wrote:It's sad that the Lakers didn't win this game since LeBron had a GOAT-level finals game. On the other hand, these last two games have been the most fun to watch all season, so I welcome another. Hopefully both teams can heal up during the break. AD did not look 100%.


Celtics/Raptors games 6 and 7 were way better than game 4. This game 5 is def up there tho
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3989 » by 70sFan » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:08 am

People in LeBron thread act like this is over for Lakers, even though they are 3-2 and have two more chances to finish the series. Man, people like to overreact so much :D

I'm all for Heat now, but I don't expect they'll win 3 games in a row. Lakers are way too good for that and they have James.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3990 » by GSP » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:11 am

Spo is the best coach in the league BTW and its not very close IMO

He might have the same gap prime Pop used to have over the #2 coach
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3991 » by Clyde Frazier » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:23 am

Markieff froze like a deer in the headlights. That was terrible.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3992 » by yoyoboy » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:28 am

LeBron needs to play virtually the whole game on Sunday.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3993 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:02 am

70sFan wrote:James has one of his finest finals games in whole career and that says a lot. Ironically, he lost this game just like game 1 of 2018 finals.

Butler is amazing, I don't care about RS at this point - he has to be included in top 5. He's been killing Lakers defense and he's amazing defensively. He proved that he needed one game adjustment against Davis coverage.

Duncan Robinson had also outstanding game, very Reggie-esque. I hope to see more games like that from him in that series. Bam has been bad on offense, but it looks like he's not himself. Game 6 will be a must-watch.


Butler is playing at an astonishing level right now. I know LeBron scored more points tonight, but toward the end it just felt like Butler was dominating both ends of the floor. He made so many quick, little plays all over the court, and on offense he seemed like he had everything figured out.

At this point it feels to me like the times when Butler wasn't volume scoring before was just him working within a team context rather than him letting his team down in any way.

I'm pretty sure he'll be in my top 5, and the question is just how high he can go from there.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3994 » by Blackmill » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:48 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
70sFan wrote:James has one of his finest finals games in whole career and that says a lot. Ironically, he lost this game just like game 1 of 2018 finals.

Butler is amazing, I don't care about RS at this point - he has to be included in top 5. He's been killing Lakers defense and he's amazing defensively. He proved that he needed one game adjustment against Davis coverage.

Duncan Robinson had also outstanding game, very Reggie-esque. I hope to see more games like that from him in that series. Bam has been bad on offense, but it looks like he's not himself. Game 6 will be a must-watch.


Butler is playing at an astonishing level right now. I know LeBron scored more points tonight, but toward the end it just felt like Butler was dominating both ends of the floor. He made so many quick, little plays all over the court, and on offense he seemed like he had everything figured out.

At this point it feels to me like the times when Butler wasn't volume scoring before was just him working within a team context rather than him letting his team down in any way.

I'm pretty sure he'll be in my top 5, and the question is just how high he can go from there.


Rewatching the 4th I didn't see that. I think LeBron was producing more value start-to-finish in the 4th.

For much of the 4th Butler wasn't getting his team many good looks. The first great look he helped his team get wasn't until there were fewer than 4 minutes left when Robinson hit a three to put the Heat up by 1. Rewatch that possession and you'll see Caruso essentially plays for the Heat on that possession as he literally screens KCP into oblivion. Butler made the simple pass but didn't have much to do with Robinson getting open. Down the court LeBron draws extra defenders and hits KCP for a wide open corner three that misses. This is how the cards fell for the Lakers in the 4th. They consistently got good looks from LeBron but failed to convert. Meanwhile Butler played well but had far less responsibility for the Heat's success on offense. Overall the Lakers had much higher shot quality than the Heat and shot well below expectation.

Defensively Butler played well but I wouldn't call his play dominant. To me that suggest he was denying some crucial advantage to the Lakers. As mentioned, the Lakers got their good looks, and these looks win them the game more often than not. I thought the Heat chose their poison and got a bit lucky. If the Heat had unleashed some strategy which denied both the paint and the wide open threes, and if Butler had been a centerpiece in that strategy, I could understand calling his defense dominant. But that never happened.

What happened is Butler served as a primary LeBron defender that, with some help from teammates, redirected some of the Lakers offense from the paint to the three point line. Credit to Butler for being a good enough defender to allow for this strategy, clearly this would be much harder to execute if Butler were a lesser defender, but the Lakers' shooters were so wide open and so in their preferred spots that it's hard for me not to see this as a gamble that simply paid off. The Lakers rolled snake eyes in the 4th and that had to happen for the Heat to win.

Regarding LeBron's own defensive play, he obviously had a different role than Butler, but I think he was similarly a clear positive but not a dominating force. His show-and-recover while defending the screener was sharp all game and he pulled down a couple solidly contested rebounds in the 4th. To me the difference in defense, if it is in favor of Butler, is a lot less than the advantage LeBron has on offense which I thought was quite significant.

I think it boils down to (1) the Lakers outscored the Heat in the 4th (2) how much the Lakers outscored the Heat by doesn't reflect the difference in shot quality, and on average, I'm guessing the Lakers outscore the Heat by 4-5 points more than they actually did (3) LeBron was much more responsible for the Lakers' shot quality than Butler was for the Heat's (4) I don't think there's much defensive gap either way. The picture I see painted is of LeBron being the better, more impactful player. But I'm happy to consider why that might not be the case.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3995 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:14 pm

Blackmill wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
70sFan wrote:James has one of his finest finals games in whole career and that says a lot. Ironically, he lost this game just like game 1 of 2018 finals.

Butler is amazing, I don't care about RS at this point - he has to be included in top 5. He's been killing Lakers defense and he's amazing defensively. He proved that he needed one game adjustment against Davis coverage.

Duncan Robinson had also outstanding game, very Reggie-esque. I hope to see more games like that from him in that series. Bam has been bad on offense, but it looks like he's not himself. Game 6 will be a must-watch.


Butler is playing at an astonishing level right now. I know LeBron scored more points tonight, but toward the end it just felt like Butler was dominating both ends of the floor. He made so many quick, little plays all over the court, and on offense he seemed like he had everything figured out.

At this point it feels to me like the times when Butler wasn't volume scoring before was just him working within a team context rather than him letting his team down in any way.

I'm pretty sure he'll be in my top 5, and the question is just how high he can go from there.


Rewatching the 4th I didn't see that. I think LeBron was producing more value start-to-finish in the 4th.

For much of the 4th Butler wasn't getting his team many good looks. The first great look he helped his team get wasn't until there were fewer than 4 minutes left when Robinson hit a three to put the Heat up by 1. Rewatch that possession and you'll see Caruso essentially plays for the Heat on that possession as he literally screens KCP into oblivion. Butler made the simple pass but didn't have much to do with Robinson getting open. Down the court LeBron draws extra defenders and hits KCP for a wide open corner three that misses. This is how the cards fell for the Lakers in the 4th. They consistently got good looks from LeBron but failed to convert. Meanwhile Butler played well but had far less responsibility for the Heat's success on offense. Overall the Lakers had much higher shot quality than the Heat and shot well below expectation.

Defensively Butler played well but I wouldn't call his play dominant. To me that suggest he was denying some crucial advantage to the Lakers. As mentioned, the Lakers got their good looks, and these looks win them the game more often than not. I thought the Heat chose their poison and got a bit lucky. If the Heat had unleashed some strategy which denied both the paint and the wide open threes, and if Butler had been a centerpiece in that strategy, I could understand calling his defense dominant. But that never happened.

What happened is Butler served as a primary LeBron defender that, with some help from teammates, redirected some of the Lakers offense from the paint to the three point line. Credit to Butler for being a good enough defender to allow for this strategy, clearly this would be much harder to execute if Butler were a lesser defender, but the Lakers' shooters were so wide open and so in their preferred spots that it's hard for me not to see this as a gamble that simply paid off. The Lakers rolled snake eyes in the 4th and that had to happen for the Heat to win.

Regarding LeBron's own defensive play, he obviously had a different role than Butler, but I think he was similarly a clear positive but not a dominating force. His show-and-recover while defending the screener was sharp all game and he pulled down a couple solidly contested rebounds in the 4th. To me the difference in defense, if it is in favor of Butler, is a lot less than the advantage LeBron has on offense which I thought was quite significant.

I think it boils down to (1) the Lakers outscored the Heat in the 4th (2) how much the Lakers outscored the Heat by doesn't reflect the difference in shot quality, and on average, I'm guessing the Lakers outscore the Heat by 4-5 points more than they actually did (3) LeBron was much more responsible for the Lakers' shot quality than Butler was for the Heat's (4) I don't think there's much defensive gap either way. The picture I see painted is of LeBron being the better, more impactful player. But I'm happy to consider why that might not be the case.


I appreciate your analysis Blackmill.

What I was referring to was:

1. Jimmy always being the guy who made the heady play. Steals, drawing fouls, rebounds that were going out of bound, making a great quick decision when the Lakers had him at a disadvantage.

2. Jimmy looking fresher down the stretch on both ends of the court despite playing more than LeBron.

I'd acknowledge that these observations don't tell the whole story and are far from any kind of proof. But it's how it felt to me. If felt to me like LeBron was absolutely having to will himself every time he went for a bucket (which most often he was successful at), and Butler looked springy out there.

And of course as I say all of this, the context here is of course that LeBron is in his 17th season and he's been expended MORE energy this season than he probably has in a half decade (though you can point out that there was a gap before the Bubble that should in theory mitigate for this).

LeBron & AD look tired (with AD it's hopefully just because he's banged up) out there, and looked like they desperately wanted this all to be over last night.

Butler was certainly tired out there too, but it felt like he could still burst and he was as emotive as ever.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3996 » by Dr Positivity » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:17 pm

If the Lakers win I will definitely be wondering about those Dragic and Bam injuries. I think the Lakers would have a weak halfcourt offense for a champion, maybe weakest since 04 or something. But they also have by far the best defensive roster, so...
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3997 » by PaulieWal » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:45 pm

GSP wrote:Cant believe there are ppl that actually were trying to say Bam was the Heat's best player over Jimmy :lol: :lol: :lol:


Why do you post like this? Through the ECF he was better than Butler and definitely way better in the ECF. Even against the Bucks, wasn't Miami winning games where Butler's scoring was putrid but the role players were just all their 3s. Wasn't Crowder shooting like 60% against the Bucks?

Bam is injured now and Butler is matching LeBron so yeah, it just looks to be a different planet but trying to come off as a bit aggressive and doubting others "I CANT BELIEVE THOSE sTUPID PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT" is not fair or good posting.

This coming from a guy who thought the Bucks were going to sweep Miami and even after Miami went up 2-0 you refused to admit your mistake because even if the Bucks had beaten Miami at that point a 6 games series is no pushover.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3998 » by Heej » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:43 pm

Anyone peep elgee's latest pod? I SWEAR TO GOD this is the second piece of media he put out that correlates to what we've been discussing in this thread just this week. This MF still lurks here. I BELIEEEEVE. Hi Ben
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3999 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:06 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:If the Lakers win I will definitely be wondering about those Dragic and Bam injuries. I think the Lakers would have a weak halfcourt offense for a champion, maybe weakest since 04 or something. But they also have by far the best defensive roster, so...


Here's the thing I'll say though:

The story of these finals is that by living through Butler the Heat have found a different way to thrive on offense.

I do think a healthy Bam helps the Heat's defense, but I'm not sure their Bam-as-Bill-Walton offense is actually better than their current approach, and if Bam were healthy the whole series, they're probably still playing that way.

Also, don't want to in any way be dismissive of Dragic who I love, but Butler's crazy right now.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4000 » by Heej » Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:30 pm

Also, I personally get the sense that the Lakers haven't been respecting the Heat all series and have been letting them come out the gates hot early. The game 4 it felt like the Lakers came to play and controlled the tenor of the game for much of it from the opening tip. I think you get a much more focused Lakers squad vs the full health Heat than the one we've seen be inconsistent and try to turn it up in the second half. Hopefully they've learned their lesson for good.
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