Retro POY '06-07 (Voting Complete)

[sp6r=underrated]

his teammates actually showed up, he was the one who failed. I wonder how much it has to do with the matchups. how can you regard Dirk's playoffs ? how would he play against different team ? it wasn't about Mavericks sucking, they lost to GSW in the RS too.

This is a thoughtful post in general, but I'm curious what voters have to say about this point here.

[semi-sentient]

This is a preemptive strike. I know some Suns supporters are going to complain about the officiating in game 3. The officiating in game 4 was just as bad against SA.

The only grievance Suns fans have is legitimate, and it is a big one, is the suspensions in game 5.

That suspension was just. They broke the rules and they paid for it. What Horry did was shady as hell, but Amare jumping up and running onto the floor in a charge like manner was just dumb.

[drza]

I'm with the crew that thinks that Duncan had an underrated regular season in '07. Statistically, Dirk had him in PER and Win Shares but Duncan had him in Wins Produced, on-court/off-court raw +/- (82games.com) and Ilardi's APM. They were both right there, along with Garnett, for best statistical regular season according to the "advanced" stats that I like but others seem to be souring on.

So as close as their regular seasons were, Duncan's postseason really separated him from Dirk's. Dallas's spectacular flameout in '07 can't all be attributed to Dirk, but man it's pretty damning.

LeBron is hard to rank. On the one hand, I am impressed that he took a not-super-talented team to the Finals, most especially with his one-man show against the Pistons. On the other hand, I do believe that his teammates were underrated (he had the kind of defensive, role playing cast that doesn't show up well in discussions but tends to have a better than expected impact, especially in the postseason). I also recognize that he went through an EXTREMELY weak East, including the 53-win Pistons that were the best in the East but not nearly to the level of the better teams in the West. I'll have this same quandry in upcoming years that feature Jason Kidd and Allen Iverson leading teams to the Finals through awful competition...how much of a boost can you really get from that?

Kobe was great, but to whoever said that Kobe's cast wasn't 10 games better than the Wolves...I don't know. To me Kobe's cast when Odom was hurt was pretty similar to KG's cast for the season, but Kobe got to play with Odom for 50 games...I'm not sure there's not 10 games difference there. Plus, you've got to factor in that the Wolves front office literally needed for them to lose down the stretch so that they could keep their 1st round pick (it was owed to the Clippers if the team finished better than 10th from the bottom of the league). That's why KG sat out most of the last weeks of the season, all of which were Wolves losses.

Nash was great. Not sure yet how I'm going to evaluate him with respect to the others on this list. I've got no problem considering McGrady as well, but for now I have trouble seeing him above any of the other 6.

[tha_rock220]

This is a preemptive strike. I know some Suns supporters are going to complain about the officiating in game 3. The officiating in game 4 was just as bad against SA.

The only grievance Suns fans have is legitimate, and it is a big one, is the suspensions in game 5.

How is it legitimate. The NBA has rules in place because you can't have 24 huge professional athletes fighting. It would take an hour to stop. There's no intent of the law here either. Amare was on his way to get into the fight because he's stupid like that. So he was suspended from game 5.

[Sedale Threatt]

I don't see how Dirk gets any higher than fourth. He was just abysmally bad in that series. Playing like a dog in a loss to an eighth-seed is a pretty catastrophic negative.

Contrast that to Duncan, who was almost just as good in the RS, then stepped it up in the playoffs while winning another championship.

The MVP voting here is just shameful; granted, we have the blessing of hindsight, but how does he get ZERO first-place votes?

[Silver Bullet]

I will never understand why Nash isn't dinged for his poor defense. Great offensive player, but you have to look at both ends of the floor.

Because his defense isn't really that bad to begin with.

Watch last night's game, if you doubt that.

[sp6r=underrated]

Plus, you've got to factor in that the Wolves front office literally needed for them to lose down the stretch so that they could keep their 1st round pick (it was owed to the Clippers if the team finished better than 10th from the bottom of the league). That's why KG sat out most of the last weeks of the season, all of which were Wolves losses.

A. You have a really good memory. I had totally forgotten about this, but that was part of the Cassell trade.

B. This is the type of information that we won't remember when we get back to seasons that occurred farther back

[Sedale Threatt]

Kobe was great, but to whoever said that Kobe's cast wasn't 10 games better than the Wolves...I don't know. To me Kobe's cast when Odom was hurt was pretty similar to KG's cast for the season, but Kobe got to play with Odom for 50 games...I'm not sure there's not 10 games difference there. Plus, you've got to factor in that the Wolves front office literally needed for them to lose down the stretch so that they could keep their 1st round pick (it was owed to the Clippers if the team finished better than 10th from the bottom of the league). That's why KG sat out most of the last weeks of the season, all of which were Wolves losses.

Lamar had like a 16 PER that year, just a hair above average. A good, solid player, but prone to disappearing. If he'd gotten to play with playoff Lamar all year, then yeah, that's a huge difference. But otherwise, not a massive difference maker.

[sp6r=underrated]

I'll admit I'm sympathetic to the Suns on the suspensions because of my own personal biases. I remember being furious with this when it happenned to the Knicks in the 90s. It was even worse for NY because they staggered the suspensions between game 6 and game 7.

[bastillon]

his teammates actually showed up, he was the one who failed. I wonder how much it has to do with the matchups. how can you regard Dirk's playoffs ? how would he play against different team ? it wasn't about Mavericks sucking, they lost to GSW in the RS too.

This is a thoughtful post in general, but I'm curious what voters have to say about this point here.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lits/2007/

my point was that if it had been any other team, Dirk would've played great (as evidenced by his entire body of work in the playoffs). I think it wasn't as much of Dirk failing to deliver in the playoffs (though it was partly the case as well), but Golden State giving him trouble with their particular style of play. that being said, he still regressed in comparison to RS Dirk.

even if we take numbers against GSW:
in the RS he averaged 20/10/5 on 48/50/86
in the PO he averaged 19/11/2 on 38/21/84

I'm going to punish Dirk, but not to the extent where I would assume he played terribly in the playoffs. most of his poor performance can be linked to matchups. he'd be great against other teams IMO.

[Gongxi]

I don't see how Dirk gets any higher than fourth. He was just abysmally bad in that series. Playing like a dog in a loss to an eighth-seed is a pretty catastrophic negative.

Because it was only four games out of the whole season. Look guys, if we're just going to count the playoffs then let's say so. I thought we've been ranking players as to their ENTIRE YEAR this whole time. Even if you say that each one of those playoff games showcase Dirk ten times more accurately than any regular season game, that's still only only a third of his entire- amazing- season.

Contrast that to Duncan, who was almost just as good in the RS, then stepped it up in the playoffs while winning another championship.

Duncan wasn't nearly as good in the regular season.

The MVP voting here is just shameful; granted, we have the blessing of hindsight, but how does he get ZERO first-place votes?

Because these are individual players, not teams! If Duncan had a fantastic, historic first round but the Spurs lost, would it be short-changing him to rank him lower as opposed to him playing deep into the playoffs? I think it obviously would. But to some people, it seems quite clear that that's exactly what they'd do. It's nonsensical.

[Sedale Threatt]

I'm going to punish Dirk, but not to the extent where I would assume he played terribly in the playoffs. most of his poor performance can be linked to matchups. he'd be great against other teams IMO.

You're being awfully generous, in my opinion. The bottom line was, he was substantially worse from the regular season, playing probably the biggest role in his team getting bounced out of the first round by the eighth seed. That is a miserable failure -- and I count myself as someone who really likes Dirk's game.

[sp6r=underrated]

The MVP voting here is just shameful; granted, we have the blessing of hindsight, but how does he get ZERO first-place votes?

Going into 2007, the feeling was Duncan was on the decline because of his injury ridden season in 06. In reality his true prime which began in 2002 didn't end until after 2007, he was just hurt in 06. Furthermore, his minutes were limited which made his stats look worse. Combine those two things with his low key style, and I think that is why he slipped under the radar.

[Silver Bullet]

This is a preemptive strike. I know some Suns supporters are going to complain about the officiating in game 3. The officiating in game 4 was just as bad against SA.

The only grievance Suns fans have is legitimate, and it is a big one, is the suspensions in game 5.

How is it legitimate. The NBA has rules in place because you can't have 24 huge professional athletes fighting. It would take an hour to stop. There's no intent of the law here either. Amare was on his way to get into the fight because he's stupid like that. So he was suspended from game 5.

No he wasn't man. Some of the guys barely moved 3 feet.

Anyway, some things that shouldn't get overlooked -

- Golden State was just a really bad match up for them and specifically S-Jax was a really bad match up for Nowitzki.

- The other thing, if you're gonna give plus points to anybody based on playoffs, it should be Lebron, not Duncan. 26 points in a row, in one of the greatest playoff performances of all time.

Re: Kobe

Some people have Garnett on thier list - that to me makes no sense. Even if his SC was historically bad, he still only won 32 games ? And he's a big, he's suppossed to have a bigger impact on offense and defense.

Kobe's supporting cast: Odom, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook ? How is that any better than KG's cast... and even if it is better - Kobe's a wing, KG's a big - That's at most a 32 win team, even with Kobe on it. That's his MVP case. Taking a group of nobodies to the playoffs in the toughest conference of all time.

Re: Lebron

His supporting cast is not much better, though he plays in the East and his SC was a much better fit. But still, slaying the Pistons, the way he did, is no small feat.

Anyway, my top 4 so far
Lebron
Nash
Kobe
Nowitzki

in no particular order

I haven't really thought about Duncan in detail as yet - and then there's Baron Davis and Stephon Jackson as really darkhorse fringe candidates.

[sp6r=underrated]

Duncan wasn't nearly as good in the regular season.

Except this isn't true as outlined by other posters in this thread.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Regular Season:

#1 - Kobe (31.6/5.7/5.4) All-NBA(1st), All-D(1st), Scoring Title

-Kobe was a monster offensively & defensively this year. Leading the league in scoring, and making the All-Defense 1st team.
-Averaged 40.4 ppg for March(only 2 other people have ever done this, 40 years before)
-Kobe scored 40+ points 18 times, including 5 straight.
-Kobe scored 50+ points 9 times, including 4 straight.
-Kobe scored 60+ points 2 times(Only 20 players have even 1 for a career)

Kobe beats out Dirk for #1 because of his dominance on both sides of the court. He averaged 40.4 in March during that critical stretch run where his cast was injury riddled. He also added a 4 game 50 point streak during this period.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7NBnX0zYVk

He also added elite defense, and great all-around play

#2 - Dirk (24.6/8.9/3.4) MVP, All-NBA(1st)
-Dirk led his team to 67 wins and won MVP
-Dirk played perhaps the most effiecient ball in the NBA(best PER)

Dirk's best season ever. He led the league in PER & WS. Took the Mavs to 67 wins, and won MVP. My only issues with Dirk were his defense, and rebounding, which were average for a elite bigman.

#3 - Nash (18.6/3.5/11.6) All-NBA(1st), Assist Title

-Nash led the league in assists, and had PHX's offense running perfectly
-Shot 53% FG, 46% 3pt, 90% FT, 65% TS

Nash & Dirk duelled for the MVP honors. Shot amazingly well, and had Phoenix focused. On the defeensive side of the ball though....Nash makes 2010 Derek Fisher look like a Prime Gary Payton. His defensive effort was nonexistant.

#4 - Duncan (20.0/11.2/3.6) All-NBA(1st), All-D(1st)

-Great all-around year
-Best post defender, in my opinion

Duncan had another solid year. He took more of a back street offensively, but was my choice for DPOY.

#5 - Lebron (27.3/6.7/6.0) All-NBA(2nd)

-Good year for Lebron, and led the Cavs to a 50 win season. Was average at best defensively, didn't post his normal efficiency.


Playoffs:

#1 - Duncan (22.2/11.5/3.3)

-Played great defense, and efficiently led SA to the title

#2 - Nash (18.9/3.2/13.3)

-Was great in the playoffs, just not as good as Duncan
-Posted ridiculoous assists numbers

#3 - Lebron (25.1/8.1/8.0)

- Led the Cavs to the Finals
- Would be higher, but only shot 41.6% FG/51.6% TS
- Had an alltime great game agiant Detorit, but only had two 41 win teams to go

through to get there. And had an all-time bad Final series

#4 - Kobe (32.8/5.2/4.4)

- Great numbers, but lost in 1st round.

#5 - Dirk (19.7/11.3/2.3)

-Horrible series, shot 38%
-All-time choke job


Final Rankings:

#1 Kobe

-Historic regular season.
-Elite scorer and defender
-Great playoff numbers

#2 Duncan

-Champion
-Defensive monster

#3 Dirk

-Great regular season
-Abysmal post season

#4 Nash

-Great playmaking, and shooting

#5 Lebron

-Made Finals
-Not quite 1st team yet

[sp6r=underrated]

I haven't really thought about Duncan in detail as yet - and then there's Baron Davis and Stephon Jackson as really darkhorse fringe candidates.

I assume this is a joke that you would even consider Captain Jack or Baron over TD.

[Sedale Threatt]

Because it was only four games out of the whole season. Look guys, if we're just going to count the playoffs then let's say so. I thought we've been ranking players as to their ENTIRE YEAR this whole time. Even if you say that each one of those playoff games showcase Dirk ten times more accurately than any regular season game, that's still only only a third of his entire- amazing- season.

I think it's extremely valid to give extra weight to playoff performance. I'm definitely looking at the whole year, but when you fail to measure up in the postseason, I'm marking down.

I did it to Kobe and LeBron from the previous year, and I'm definitely doing it here, where the player in question was horrendous in a terrible playoff loss.

If he'd been just subpar, losing as a 3rd or 4th seed, not too much damage. But to flame out like that...I just don't see how you can't assess a pretty severe penalty for that.

Duncan wasn't nearly as good in the regular season.

Several of the measures posted in this thread show that's not true.

Because these are individual players, not teams! If Duncan had a fantastic, historic first round but the Spurs lost, would it be short-changing him to rank him lower as opposed to him playing deep into the playoffs? I think it obviously would. But to some people, it seems quite clear that that's exactly what they'd do. It's nonsensical?

Well, of course you wouldn't punish somebody for raising their game in the playoffs. That's why I didn't punish LeBron for Cleveland's loss in 09. He was phenomenal.

Frankly, I don't see how this is an apt comparison, as Dirk did the exact opposite -- he played terrible in a historic loss. If he'd have gone down with guns blazing, and exceeded his regular season performance, than I'd probably stick him at first. But that didn't happen. His poor play had a catastrophic effect on a team that entered the playoffs with serious championship hopes. That is an epic failure, in my opinion.

[Sedale Threatt]

Stephen Jackson?!?!

[Silver Bullet]

I haven't really thought about Duncan in detail as yet - and then there's Baron Davis and Stephon Jackson as really darkhorse fringe candidates.

I assume this is a joke that you would even consider Captain Jack or Baron over TD.

I don't know man - From what I remember that year, they were both very special. I know TD has a game, that can get overlooked at times - but I also know that the Spurs have a system that's conductive to winning. hmmm - I don't know.

For the purposes of my vote, I'm treating the Spurs as if they lost in the first round, and the Suns went on to win the ring.