Retro POY '03-04 (Voting Complete)

[semi-sentient]

I came into this thread thinking there was no way in hell Kobe would make the top 5, but god damn the candidates suck. Initially I thought about Peja until I remembered how much he sucked in the playoffs (numbers back that up), and JO is just too inefficient (and overrated).

Anyway, rankings:

1. Kevin Garnett - Great all around season, and if not for Cassell having injury issues they would have beaten the Lakers and faced the Pistons in the Finals.
   
2. Tim Duncan - A very distant 2nd. Pretty good regular season, but did miss 12 games. His post-season was subpar for his standards, especially against the Lakers.
   
3. Kobe Bryant - Bonehead. I agree with Sedale about the Colorado stuff. All people talked about was how he would fly back and have a great game, but it was still a distraction for the team. Still, I suppose he played well enough to earn this ranking despite this probably being his worst season as a start (considering expectations). Giving it more thought, looking at stats, and taking into consideration others opinions, I'm bumping him up ahead of Shaq.
   
4. Shaquille O'Neal - Fueled most of the drama in LA (IMO), but played well enough in the regular/post-season to earn a top 5 spot.
   
5. Ben Wallace - Finished highest on the Pistons in MVP voting, and runner-up for DPOY. Played great defense in the post-season, and I thought he did a tremendous job against Shaq (ball denial, rebounding, offensive production). If he weren't such a liability on offense I'd have him at #3, but he's as much a one-way player (actually worse) than a guy like Nash who I knock for not playing good defense.

Oh, and that Spurs/Lakers series? I nearly ended my life after Fisher hit that damn shot. I ran straight outside to my balcony and nearly fell head first off my 2nd story apartment as I was yelling at Spurs fans (lived in SA at the time) across the way in another apartment complex. I went from depressed (Duncan shot) to insanely happy (Fisher shot) to downright scared (falling off the balcony head first). That was a crazy ass few minutes.

Very forgettable season though. Looking forward to 2002-03!

[drza]

I'd like to see someone make an argument for Ben Wallace over anyone else on those Pistons. I can't see it personally, and I feel that Rasheed really made his job a lot easier. Without Rasheed, Ben can't do what he does, and that Detroit team isn't nearly as good.

Chauncey imo was the most indispensable member of that squad, between his running of the offense, timely shooting (this was before he became overrated as a clutch shooter in the coming years), and well above average defense at the point guard position.

Also don't think you can penalize Shaq and Kobe THAT much for the Finals, they were still 2 of the top 5 players in the NBA for the entire rest of the season. I think both have to be on any top 5 list.

EDIT: Sedale if you really HAVE to put Ben up there, at least put Chauncey at # 5. It just makes me sick to see Ben on a top 5 list, he is imo one of the most overrated players of all time, and I'd like to be convinced otherwise if there is a good argument for it.

The start of my argument for Ben Wallace would be to essentially take one of the big pro-Nash arguments from '05 and reverse it. Essentially, the argument was that point guards in general have small effects on team defense anyway, so the fact that Nash gives you very little defensively doesn't hurt him so much. And since Nash has such a huge offensive effect he obviously has a big net effect on the game, even if that effect comes entirely at one end of the floor.

Well, Wallace seems to be the opposite of that. My contention would be that the most valuable contribution that a big man can make is dominating defensively and on the glass. Now obviously, to be the truly super-elite you have to contribute on offense as well. But if Big Ben was so good defensively and as a rebounder that he still had a big net effect on the team despite being an offensive zero, then I say he deserves to be in the '04 conversation as much as Nash was in the 05-07 conversations.

Statistically, Big Ben was only a tick behind Chauncey in both PER and Win Shares despite the fact that both tend to favor offensive players. Meanwhile, he led the team in Wins Produced. Sheed led the team in regular season APM, I believe because they got so much better once he arrived and completed Voltron, but in the postseason Big Ben had both the most positive on-court +/- and the most negative off-cout +/- for a net +24.1 that by-far led the team (Hamilton was next with +17.1) and dwarfed both Sheed (+6.6) and Finals MVP Chauncey (+6.2).

Much like KG in '08 and Duncan in '07, I thought Big Ben should have been the Finals MVP solely because of his defense (of course, KG and Duncan also had offensive contributions as well but that's an argument for another thread). But if I had to choose just one of the '04 Pistons, I think Wallace was both the heart of that team as well as being their most important contributor.

[NO-KG-AI]

I don't think Wallace is as much of a negative on offense as some believed anyway. He was actually +2.3. He's still someone you have to sacrifice a body or two on just to keep him off the offensive glass, and that hurts opposing teams.

He always struck me as a fairly crafty passer as well. Nothing super, but still helpful.

[Doctor MJ]

Good arguments for Big Ben. I was actually leaning toward Billups as Piston #1 but have changed my mind. It's funny, Billups eventually established himself as the best Piston of the era, but there was improvement that happened after the Finals MVP, and the championship this year really was about all-time great level defense and huge team belief - both spearheaded by Ben and his 'fro.

[Gongxi]

:/ Guys, I know we want to explain the Pistons' success somehow, but are some of you guys really thinking Ben Wallace had the 5th best individual season that year? I mean, I know I'm not much better with Peja, but I'll switch to an injured McGrady or Kidd, or an underwhelming Dirk, or even a mostly-overhyped Jermaine O'Neal if it will keep this project from deciding that Ben Wallace was the 5th best player in the NBA in 2003-2004. Just say it aloud: you know you don't believe it.

[mysticbb]

Why I don't have Ben Wallace in my Top5? Because he had a negative Net+/- in the playoffs. The most defensive work was made by Rasheed Wallace, Ben was able to roam around. His impact in the playoffs wasn't there. I picked Billups, besides the numbers there is always more on a championship team and imho Billups was the leader of that team, the leader on and off the court who helped Larry Brown to get his philosophy going. Billups played great in that season and playoffs, led the Pistons in Win Shares and PER in the regular season and in the playoffs by good margin.

[drza]

Why I don't have Ben Wallace in my Top5? Because he had a negative Net+/- in the playoffs. The most defensive work was made by Rasheed Wallace, Ben was able to roam around. His impact in the playoffs wasn't there. I picked Billups, besides the numbers there is always more on a championship team and imho Billups was the leader of that team, the leader on and off the court who helped Larry Brown to get his philosophy going. Billups played great in that season and playoffs, led the Pistons in Win Shares and PER in the regular season and in the playoffs by good margin.

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect, unless you mean something different by "Net +/-" than the 82games info, in which case I respectfully withdraw this post. Here's the 82games net +/- info for 03-04:

http://www.82games.com/034PDET.HTM

(Big Ben +24.1, Rip +17.2, Sheed +6.6, Chauncey +6.2)

Also, the playoff Win Shares and PER were essentially a dead heat between Big Ben (18.6 PER, 3.6 WS) and Chauncey (18.8, 3.7 WS). Rip had a slightly higher PER (19.6) and slightly fewer WS (3.4). Sheed was well back in both categories.

[mysticbb]

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect, unless you mean something different by "Net +/-" than the 82games info, in which case I respectfully withdraw this post.

Nope, I stand corrected, I looked the whole time at the wrong year. Which makes me rethink it a little bit, but overall my statement about Billups being the leader on and off the court still stands.

[drza]

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect, unless you mean something different by "Net +/-" than the 82games info, in which case I respectfully withdraw this post.

Nope, I stand corrected, I looked the whole time at the wrong year. Which makes me rethink it a little bit, but overall my statement about Billups being the leader on and off the court still stands.

That's fair. I will say this, though, about the concept of that being Billups' team...

I lived in Michigan during that time. And the general impression one would get from the local news and newspapers was that it was Big Ben's team.

The team motto of those Pistons was "We're going to work!", with its own little theme song and everything. And the posterchild for that motto was Big Ben, who in those parts was considered the hardest working man in the NBA.

I went to several Pistons games in those years. Billups got a warm reception, even though in my experience most thought that the "Buh buh buh Billups" that the PA announcer used to try to hype him up was kind of corny. Big Ben, on the other hand? Every time they tolled the bell over the loudspeaker, the crowd went NUTS. In my experience, being in the arena, there was no question who the crowd thought was the best player on the Pistons.

:Shrugs: I don't have any kind of documentation on locker-room dynamics for those Pistons the way I did for the '08 Celtics. And Chauncey may very well have been Larry's leader, I don't know for sure. But my impression was always that Ben was the team leader in those times, that the Chauncey contingent didn't grow in the locker room until Flip got there in 2006, and that when Big Ben lost out and the team took a more offensive bent behind Chauncey that that was essentially what drove him out of Detroit the next season.

I don't know for sure. But one thing I can say from my experiences in the Palace...it certainly FELT like Big Ben was the leader.

[mysticbb]

I don't know for sure. But one thing I can say from my experiences in the Palace...it certainly FELT like Big Ben was the leader.

Well, I had the chance to spent some time in Ann Arbor (since 2005, one year later, but whatever). And I usually try to go to the Palace whenever I have the chance to. I can't say that I share your feelings here. I personally can't say whether it was different in 2003/04, obviously.

If the PM system would work, I would have used it to explain where I have my informations from, but I seriously don't want and will do it in public.

[drza]

I don't know for sure. But one thing I can say from my experiences in the Palace...it certainly FELT like Big Ben was the leader.

Well, I had the chance to spent some time in Ann Arbor (since 2005, one year later, but whatever). And I usually try to go to the Palace whenever I have the chance to. I can't say that I share your feelings here. I personally can't say whether it was different in 2003/04, obviously.

If the PM system would work, I would have used it to explain where I have my informations from, but I seriously don't want and will do it in public.

Fair enough. I don't really have a dog in this hunt, just giving my perspective. (Though as a basketball guy that's also nosy I'd love to get the scoop on your informant if/when the PM system is back online.)

Side note, why were you in Ann Arbor? That was actually where I was too, at UM.

[mysticbb]

Side note, why were you in Ann Arbor? That was actually where I was too, at UM.

Well, when your gf is making her PhD there, you might have to visit her from time to time. ;)

[Silver Bullet]

Keep Walking

[sp6r=underrated]

My Rankings :

1. Steve Nash



2. Shaq
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Ray Allen
5. Tim Duncan

Wrong thread?

[Silver Bullet]

My Rankings :

1. Steve Nash



2. Shaq
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Ray Allen
5. Tim Duncan

Wrong thread?

lol yea - off topic, why are you participating in this thread as much as anyone and then not voting ?

[sp6r=underrated]

lol yea - off topic, why are you participating in this thread as much as anyone and then not voting ?

When the finals end, I stop reading realgm. I generally make like 2-10 posts between July-October.

[Doctor MJ]

lol yea - off topic, why are you participating in this thread as much as anyone and then not voting ?

When the finals end, I stop reading realgm. I generally make like 2-10 posts between July-October.

Y'know man, if you can contribute any thing like this through June, I'm totally fine with you voting. I definitely appreciate you being considerate not starting something you can't finish, but it is starting to seem pretty silly that we aren't directly counting your opinion.

[Sedale Threatt]

Oh, and that Spurs/Lakers series? I nearly ended my life after Fisher hit that damn shot. I ran straight outside to my balcony and nearly fell head first off my 2nd story apartment as I was yelling at Spurs fans (lived in SA at the time) across the way in another apartment complex. I went from depressed (Duncan shot) to insanely happy (Fisher shot) to downright scared (falling off the balcony head first). That was a crazy ass few minutes.

LOL -- I did the exact same thing, minus the almost falling off part. Ran out on the balcony and, at the top of my lungs, yelled (edited version), "What do you people think about that particular shot?"

[sp6r=underrated]

In the interests of disclose, I'll list some of my biases. By biases, I generally mean players were my personal evaluation of them differs largely from the general consensus on the board. I'll also add in if I'm a huge fan/hater of that play

For: Duncan (followed him since his days at Wake), Ewing (childhood idol, though looking back with objectivity has been disappointing for me), Nash,
Against: Kobe (don't think his peak as high as others do), Isiah, Stockton, Olajuwon, 1980s in general (I don't think the decade was this perfect era of basketball that so many believe),

My favorite team is the knicks, but since moving to the mid-west I haven't been able to watch them as much as I would like. Hopefully, a certain free agent will ensure more national knick games. Other teams I have liked over the years: mid 90s Sonics, Duncan's Spurs, warming up to current Magic, any any team who played MJ bulls.

The first year I remember watching an NBA game was 1988 but I was a kid then and had no clue what was going on. I would say 96 was around the year I stopped making arguments like Ewing > MJ.

I think the 2004 season was hurt by rules mostly. The NBA allowed zone but still allowed heavy hand-checking. This made it very difficult for the best players to really break through, and allowed inferior player/teams to stay close by uglying the game up.

Alright, here is my vote:

1. KG: I think this is an obvious vote, so I'm not going to spend too much time explaining it. KG was the best player in the RS by a large margin. He was also the best player in the PS.

2. TD: I'm biased but I felt he was the 2nd best player this year.
3. Shaquille O'Neal: Overall I felt he was still the lakers best player this year. I think his numbers took a drop mostly because he sacrificed some of his game for his teammates.
4. Dirk:
5. Kobe: his general poor performance in the PS took him down a spot.

HM
Kidd
Wallace

[Sedale Threatt]

Regarding the Pistons, I don't think they were anyone's team. That was the beauty of what they did. They had five quality starters, each of whom excelled at different parts of the game and brought something different to the table. Plus a good bench and a great coach.

Assessing individuals in terms of value is fine; I feel very confident in giving Ben a bit of an edge over Chauncey. But that was truly a team effort, and to explicitly label them Chauncey's Team or Ben's Team misses the point, in my opinion.