Retro POY '00-01 (Voting Complete)

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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#41 » by semi-sentient » Thu May 13, 2010 12:31 am

Dr Mufasa wrote:The one knock on Iverson seems to be efficiency


... and defense. IMO, he's always been a below average defender. The other wings (T-Mac, Vince, and especially Kobe) were better two-way players. T-Mac and Vince weren't that much better, but Kobe was an elite defender at the guard position.

He scored a lot, but doing it that inefficient kind of hurts the team I think. In the playoffs (especially), his FGA went up over 30 but his TS% was .480 which is even lower than the regular season. That's terrible considering his high volume and pretty hard to swallow.

I know he had to shoulder the load offensively, but man, that's pretty bad.

I don't know. I'm going to have to give AI some more thought. He was extremely tough to cover because of his quickness, but I recall Fisher being on him most of the NBA Finals and he still shot poorly. He settles for far too many jumpers when he could have just toned it down a notch and created some good looks for his teammates. It's not like he had a bunch of Ben Wallace's out there. Mutombo was plenty capable of scoring, but AI was downright ignoring him at times. Mutombo WANTED the ball against Shaq, and I thought he was playing well enough that he deserved them.

Of course this is just one series, but this is how I generally remember him playing throughout.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#42 » by drza » Thu May 13, 2010 12:34 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
bastillon wrote:both Duncan and KG outplayed Kobe in the RS and then they were very good in the playoffs. I don't see how Kobe is over either.

How did KG outplay Kobe in the RS? :-?

I give Kobe the edge over Duncan because both had a great RS, but Kobe had the suprior PS, and personally destroyed the Spurs in the WCF.


I guess some easy arguments for KG over Kobe in the RS would be that:

1) KG did more to carry his team to 47 wins than Kobe did to get the lakers to 56
2) KG finished higher in the MVP vote
3) KG played more games
4) They measured similar in PER (slight edge Kobe) and Win Shares (KG slightly more, Kobe slightly more per 48 min) but KG had a solid advantage in Wins Produced
5) Garnett finished 2nd in the Defensive Player of the Year vote and got a bunch of votes, enough to actually have been a legit challenge to win it

And it's hard to knock what KG did in the postseason either. He went head-to-head with the Duncan/Robinson duo while Robinson was still a star, and more than held his own.

:Shrugs: I think a decent argument could be made either way
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#43 » by Baller 24 » Thu May 13, 2010 12:35 am

McGrady had a great year, and so did Carter. I think Carter statistically impacted more to winning than McGrady, even though T-Mac that season still ended up higher in MVP voting. Couple of questions here:

To anyone putting AI over Kobe, what are the justifications to this? Bryant's post-season was absolutely amazing, AI's---not so much, it's hard to sway me for a guy taking 30 shots to score 33 points (38%). I think AI's top 5 for me, but defeintely not over Bryant.

Also, is it me or is Webber getting underrated here? IMHO he might be coming into my top 5, OVER KG.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#44 » by TMACFORMVP » Thu May 13, 2010 12:41 am

Code: Select all

92.4 OPP. points per game (7th)
.442 FG% defense (12th)
.399 three point defense (13th)

*Keep in mind only 16 teams make the playoffs

You know what that is? That's the Philadelphia 76ers defensive ranks in the playoffs. While they were the best rebounding, and shot blocking team in the league, the Sixers were in fact not this DOMINANT defensive team many people perceive them to be, going as far as saying Iverson was more a detriment to that team, and the defense was the sole reason they made that run in the finals. Yes his efficiency greatly dropped, and yes, he was wildly inconsistent, but the games he did have, only few could have replicated IMO.

Game 2 @ IND: 45 points, 3 rebounds, 9 assists on 15-27
Game 2 vs TOR: 54 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists on 21-39
Game 5 vs. TOR: 52 points, 2 rebounds, 7 assists on 21-32
(in Game 7 he shot poorly, but he still had 21 points, and 16 ASSISTS)
Game 6 @ MIL: 46 points, 2 rebounds, 3 assists on 14-33
Game 7 v. MIL: 44 points, 6 rebounds, 7 assists on 17-33
Game 1 @ LA: 48 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists on 18-41

In the regular season Iverson led the league in scoring, over 31 a game, and his TS% was comparable to McGrady's and higher than a guy like Webber (while both aren't the most efficient in their own right, in this particular season, lack of efficiency wouldn't be used to really negate what they've done). The Sixers did go 6-5 without him (.545), but a couple of those wins were against the lowly Cavaliers (30), Pistons (32), Nets (26), and Bulls (15). *Parenthesis indicating how many wins those respective teams finished with.

With Iverson the Sixers went 50-21, which means they won just over 70% of their games with him in the lineup.

I know it's hard to justify that lack of inefficiency in the playoffs, but I'm not sure, I think efficiency is starting to get a little overrated. I think he should be in the Top 5, but the argument with Iverson is what if guys like Kobe, Mac, and Vince were on that team instead, do they possibly go further? Well, I wouldn't be able to say that with a straight face, and honestly speaking, neither McGrady or VC would have won any more games against the Lakers, if they get that far in the first place (which I'd question).

That's the argument I don't get, people claim Iverson's inefficiency hurt that team, but how much more could that team have done? Because at the end of the day, there was no one else aside from AI that could create his own shot, and there wasn't one person on the team that hit one three per game, let alone shoot a respectable percentage from three. Iverson was statistically the best three point shooter on the team, lol (though McKie was very good in the playoffs from distance). But regardless, there's no one else with the ability to create, or hit an open three point shot. That team fully maximized on the talent it was given, and that was because of Iverson, flat out.

He's definitely not better than Kobe, but he has a legitimate, and IMO the right case over guys like McGrady or VC.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#45 » by drza » Thu May 13, 2010 12:46 am

Baller 24 wrote:McGrady had a great year, and so did Carter. I think Carter statistically impacted more to winning than McGrady, even though T-Mac that season still ended up higher in MVP voting. Couple of questions here:

To anyone putting AI over Kobe, what are the justifications to this? Bryant's post-season was absolutely amazing, AI's---not so much, it's hard to sway me for a guy taking 30 shots to score 33 points (38%). I think AI's top 5 for me, but defeintely not over Bryant.

Also, is it me or is Webber getting underrated here? IMHO he might be coming into my top 5, OVER KG.


I haven't gone full-bore into this year yet, but I agree that Webber needs to at least be getting mentioned. I had him on my original list of candidates for '02, but the 54 games hurt. '01 was probably his best season, so it'll be interesting to see where he ends up fitting into the mix
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#46 » by An Unbiased Fan » Thu May 13, 2010 12:50 am

drza wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:
bastillon wrote:both Duncan and KG outplayed Kobe in the RS and then they were very good in the playoffs. I don't see how Kobe is over either.

How did KG outplay Kobe in the RS? :-?

I give Kobe the edge over Duncan because both had a great RS, but Kobe had the suprior PS, and personally destroyed the Spurs in the WCF.


I guess some easy arguments for KG over Kobe in the RS would be that:

1) KG did more to carry his team to 47 wins than Kobe did to get the lakers to 56
2) KG finished higher in the MVP vote
3) KG played more games
4) They measured similar in PER (slight edge Kobe) and Win Shares (KG slightly more, Kobe slightly more per 48 min) but KG had a solid advantage in Wins Produced
5) Garnett finished 2nd in the Defensive Player of the Year vote and got a bunch of votes, enough to actually have been a legit challenge to win it

And it's hard to knock what KG did in the postseason either. He went head-to-head with the Duncan/Robinson duo while Robinson was still a star, and more than held his own.

:Shrugs: I think a decent argument could be made either way

All fair points. I see both KG & Kobe at the same level in the RS, but wouldn't say KG outplayed him.

As for the playoffs, I would say Kobe was far superior to KG. Their performances against the Spurs alone give Kobe a significant edge that year.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#47 » by semi-sentient » Thu May 13, 2010 12:50 am

Webber had a pretty bad post-season, compared to his regular season.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#48 » by TMACFORMVP » Thu May 13, 2010 12:55 am

Yeah the playoffs really hurt Webber in this comparison. Like we talk about with AI putting up a .480 TS% in the playoffs, Webber was .427 TS and 38% from the field. Not to mention the Kings went 8-4 without Webber in the regular season as well.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#49 » by Baller 24 » Thu May 13, 2010 12:59 am

Actually I just checked some things, Webber's playoff outing wasn't that great, and the Kings were like 7-5 without him, he also had a TS% of only 42, that's terrible. NVM, I guess he's out for me.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#50 » by Baller 24 » Thu May 13, 2010 1:18 am

I think for the top four, I've got Shaq, Duncan, Bryant, and Iverson. I'm down to either picking Garnett, Carter, or McGrady for the 5th spot. Ray Allen could be in the mix too.

Ray Allen:
52-30 Win team, 1st Offensive Rating

RS: 22/5/5/48%/43%/89%, 22.9 PER, 61 TS%

Playoffs:
25/4/6AST/48%/48%/92%, 23.7 PER, 61 TS%
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#51 » by Silver Bullet » Thu May 13, 2010 1:25 am

Gongxi wrote:
Silver Bullet wrote:
Gongxi wrote:
The impact in the end isn't much different. From either of them. McGrady has a lower sample size, yes. We could just look at their entire season. They played amazingly similarly that year.

I will say, though, that UBF coming to your defense makes me more confident in placing McGrady above Carter, though.


that is a crazy reason to put T-Mac over Carter -

1. Look at the Raptors roster, they weren't much better than the Magic


Don't care.

2. They went to the 2nd round - and it had nothing to do with supporting cast, it was all Vince.


Not accurate/don't care.

3. They were like half an inch away from being in the conference finals


Don't care if they made it or didn't.

4. Carter has superior stats


Not true.

5. The games, they won, they won because of Carter - If one guy puts up 14 pts in game 1 and they lose and need a win, and the guy comes out and puts up 50 pts - vs another guy comes in and puts up 32 pts in game 1 and they lose and face a must win situation and the guy again puts up 32 pts - wouldn't you value the first guys points more -


lolwut

6. I haven't looked at the stats - but I'd bet the Tor-NY and Tor-Phi series featured lower scoring games than the Bucks-Magic series.


Me neither. It's still only a small fraction of their entire seasons.

I don't understand how you can say the impact isn't much different - Carter was putting up his stats against Eric Snow and Aaron Mckie (featuring in a Larry Brown defensive system backed up by Tyrone Hill and Dikembe Mutombo) - T-Mac was putting up his stats on Glenn Robinson and Tim Thomas backed up by Ervin Johnson and Dan Gadzuric.


It's a small fraction of their entire seasons.

I'm totally open to putting Carter in there, but your "arguments" (if you wanna call it that) are not very persuasive at all.



wth ?

You're the one who said McGrady had the better post season and now you're rebutting yourself by saying it was a small fraction of their entire seasons ?

Because based on regular season - this is clearly Carter.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#52 » by Baller 24 » Thu May 13, 2010 1:34 am

SB, they're neck and neck statistically, but Vince has the edge in terms of team impact.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#53 » by Doctor MJ » Thu May 13, 2010 1:35 am

Baller 24 wrote:I think for the top four, I've got Shaq, Duncan, Bryant, and Iverson. I'm down to either picking Garnett, Carter, or McGrady for the 5th spot. Ray Allen could be in the mix too.

Ray Allen:
52-30 Win team, 1st Offensive Rating

RS: 22/5/5/48%/43%/89%, 22.9 PER, 61 TS%

Playoffs:
25/4/6AST/48%/48%/92%, 23.7 PER, 61 TS%


I like the shout out to Ray. Hard to see him making my top 5 right now, but he was fantastic.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#54 » by Silver Bullet » Thu May 13, 2010 1:38 am

Baller 24 wrote:SB, they're neck and neck statistically, but Vince has the edge in terms of team impact.


you're right -
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#55 » by sp6r=underrated » Thu May 13, 2010 1:42 am

Semi and TMAC just took out Webber from consideration.

Hardawaay

I share your assessment of Mourning being top 5 this year, if he didn't have the kidney aliment. I mention this in one of my prior post is that the 98-01 is a bit more open for top 5 spots due to injuries and disappointing draft classes.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#56 » by Baller 24 » Thu May 13, 2010 1:48 am

Doctor MJ wrote:I like the shout out to Ray. Hard to see him making my top 5 right now, but he was fantastic.


Funny thing is, throughout the playoffs the next two best players on the team, dropped their efficiencies drastically compared to their regular season---both Cassell and Robinson. Allen was also very stellar in game eliminations, remember he played the biggest role in forcing a Game 7 in the ECF, where he had the dual-out against Iverson---41 points on 48%, including 69% of his threes, where he made 9 of them out of 13 attempts. He had a stretch in the game where he scored 19 points IN A ROW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3x732DBtBA .
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#57 » by sp6r=underrated » Thu May 13, 2010 2:23 am

Malone won't be in my top 5, but it is insane to think about the fact he could be top 5 in 1988 and 2001. That guy had massive longevity.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#58 » by Gongxi » Thu May 13, 2010 2:31 am

Silver Bullet wrote:wth ?

You're the one who said McGrady had the better post season and now you're rebutting yourself by saying it was a small fraction of their entire seasons ?

Because based on regular season - this is clearly Carter.


How am I rebutting myself? You're the one claiming one is vastly superior to the other. I'm the one saying that either way- because they're ridiculously close and in production the nod clearly goes to McGrady, and the only way you can make an argument for Carter is through team accomplishment, making apologies for the defenses he faced, or going off of the number of dramatic performances- it's still a small sample size.

I don't think 'rebut' means what you think it means. Or just want it to mean.

Based on the regular season, nothing is clear.

27.6 ppg vs. 26.8 ppg. 55%TS vs. 52% TS. 5.5 rpg vs 7.5 rpg. 7.9% TRR vs. 10.4% TRR. 3.9 apg vs 4.6 apg. 18.2% AR vs. 22.8% AR. 25.0 PER vs. 24.9 PER.

I don't know where this separation is coming from other than from your own fandom. Which one had the better defense that year? I choose McGrady, and that's the tiebreaker for me. But clearly? Come on.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#59 » by Silver Bullet » Thu May 13, 2010 2:57 am

Gongxi wrote:
Silver Bullet wrote:wth ?

You're the one who said McGrady had the better post season and now you're rebutting yourself by saying it was a small fraction of their entire seasons ?

Because based on regular season - this is clearly Carter.


How am I rebutting myself? You're the one claiming one is vastly superior to the other. I'm the one saying that either way- because they're ridiculously close and in production the nod clearly goes to McGrady, and the only way you can make an argument for Carter is through team accomplishment, making apologies for the defenses he faced, or going off of the number of dramatic performances- it's still a small sample size.

I don't think 'rebut' means what you think it means. Or just want it to mean.

Based on the regular season, nothing is clear.

27.6 ppg vs. 26.8 ppg. 55%TS vs. 52% TS. 5.5 rpg vs 7.5 rpg. 7.9% TRR vs. 10.4% TRR. 3.9 apg vs 4.6 apg. 18.2% AR vs. 22.8% AR. 25.0 PER vs. 24.9 PER.

I don't know where this separation is coming from other than from your own fandom. Which one had the better defense that year? I choose McGrady, and that's the tiebreaker for me. But clearly? Come on.


I don't think you saw that season -

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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#60 » by Gongxi » Thu May 13, 2010 3:18 am

Yeah, I must not have seen it. That's the ticket. I wasn't in Madison, WI, at the bar every game night with a bunch of Bucks fans who were insistent that it was their season. I don't remember that season vividly well at all!

The fact of the matter is of course during the course of the season Carter was getting a lot more adulation. He was a superstar already, and his athleticism was electrifying the league. He was supposed to be next Jordan at that point, even before Kobe. McGrady, on the other hand, was known as Carter's lazy-eyed sidekick who wasn't 'proven' at all. So, yes, I know what the countervailing opinion was that whole season and only afterward when you look at it does it seem different. But that's what hindsight allows of us in this situation. We should relish it, not just repeat what the thinking of the time was.

I mean, until the Bulls won in 91, Jordan was a selfish chucker who could never really be a winner. Then that summer he was suddenly a complete player who could put up crazy videogame numbers and win. But he didn't change between December of 1990 and July of 1991- only hindsight allowed for a clearer picture.

Look, if all you're gonna go by is what you think you saw and what you remember you felt 10 years ago, don't even bother. Statistically they were for all intents and purposes dead even in production. I think McGrady was better on defense. What do you think?

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