Retro POY '99-00 (Voting Complete)

[Baller 24]

Good post on Reggie, he was great no doubt, but IMO Larry Bird's coaching helped the Pacers benefit the most during his three year tenure as their coach.

[Manuel Calavera]

The reason Payton was ahead of KG in All-NBA voting etc was because there was little competition at that spot, KG ranked higher in MVP voting, which to me is a lot more telling.

Actually, the guard spot was the most competitive. 4 guards had 400+ points that year. 3 forwards had 400+ points, and Hill had mid 345.

Zo is the guy who got really screwed playing behind Shaq.

I don't need to argue this point because KG finished higher in the MVP voting, the only reason I can think of is that Garnett had to compete with Duncan, Malone and Webber for the All-NBA teams/All-D teams and for the DPOY both Payton and Garnett had an insignificant amount of votes for that to be taken as a serious measure of their relative defensive ability.

[NO-KG-AI]

What's the argument for Payton above KG exactly? I can hear Malone and Zo, though I think KG was the second best player in the RS over Zo by a bit, and over MAlone by a noticable margin, and I don't think MAlone was so amazing in the playoffs that it overrides it.

But Payton?

During the regular season I think KG gets only the slight edge over Payton IMO, exactly same PER, they played with similar talent levels, I thought they were pretty much neck and neck as you can get. And I actually was debating who to pick higher, but when AUF posted the All-NBA Team and All-NBA Defensive Team voting results, there has to be a reason why the coaches voted GP (by a clear margin of 46 points) 2nd place behind Shaq in All-NBA Team voting, and he had a pretty solid lead at 1st place over everyone in the All-NBA Defensive Teams. That was one of the things, plus the fact that he played better in the playoffs, until then though I had them neck and neck.

Maybe I'm overrating Malone a bit and I think I'm going to have to agree with Semi here and put Payton third, but I'm not sure exactly yet, let me compare KG and Malone and see if I'm really overrating him.

Not feeling that argument, they were both all NBA and all D 1st team, but KG was second in MVP voting, and their similar stats and similarly talented teams, but KG's won 5 more games and were better on both ends of the court.

I think Payton is a little better offensively, but I don't think his impact is close defensively. And honestly, Payton's defensive numbers are mediocre even in comparison to his own team, and I think he was definitely living on reputation at this point. Garnett's 99 is way ahead on his team, and is an outlier on a team that was poor defensively without his 99 there to buoy it. Payton was 104 on a team that averaged 104, and was middle of the pack with his teammates.

Payton's post season was nice, but it wasn't anything that totally blows KG out of the water. Garnett was still rebounding like a madman, was DOMINANT as a passer(has a big ever averaged more than 8.8 assists for a series?), and he kept Rasheed Wallace way below his averages in way less minutes, and the Blazers as a whole struggled to score as well.

I just don't think a few games that KG shot poorly erases his entire season, especially in the case of someone like Payton, whose numbers dropped overall a bit anyway, and also was out in the first round.

The gap is much much much bigger over the 82 game regular season than it was for the 4-5 games of post season with these two.

[bastillon]

I don't get the love for Karl Malone. yeah he pounded drunk-ass Vin Baker in the playoffs, but when the true competition came along, he struggled to make any impact. his scoring wasn't exactly dominant, he drew some double-teams and averaged really good 4 APG, but then again 8.8 rebounds is poor. there was also no question he could hardly make an impact defensively when he can't help out on the perimeter or with his shotblocking. he had a good team and as usual came up EMPTY in the series against Portland. see, when Garnett isn't scoring a lot, it doesn't hurt him so much because he doesn't normally impact the game with his scoring in the first place. Malone though, when he loses scoring his impact is severely limited. that's why Jazz lost so badly against Portland (also Stockton was a no-show in big series, but that's pretty consistent in his case).

RS was nice, but it doesn't justify why Jazz were destroyed.

I don't see why I would put him over KG. Wolves overachieved more both in the RS and especially in PS, and in the series against the same opponent Garnett had a very comparable production (with more impact) while significantly outplaying him in the RS. normally I'd discard KG based on his shooting alone, but after looking in-depth there's not a lot for Malone besides his first round series... but there's no question Garnett could dominate Vin Baker at that point.

Payton was really motivated because he played against Stockton and wanted to torch his ass. he did, but again Vin Baker <<<<<<< Karl Malone.

I like the Reggie vote, he was definitely better than Kobe that year. Payton's close, too. he was really their offensive anchor after all and got to the finals while destroying the Lakers while in there. I'm gonna vote for him, I think.

for 5th spot I've got Reggie, Payton, Carter and Kobe. Reggie might make the cut.

[NO-KG-AI]

Also, thought KG was a fair bit ahead of Malone in the regular season, what with the MVP voting, all NBA team, and all Defense.

They both played a common opponent in the playoffs, KG lost 3-1 in a 5 game series, and Malone lost 4-1 out of 7. Malone **** on Seattle, but he was stifled by Portland.

KG shot poorly, but Malone was brought down some too in that series (23 points on 44%). rebounding wasn't close, (10.8 to Malone's 8.2), passing wasn't even in the same realm (8.8 to Malone's 4).

The Jazz defense also collapsed against Portland, and they were blown out in the first 3 games before stealing one.

Garnett helped his team stifle the Portland offense, and he accounted for 40% of his teams points.

Still got Zo ahead of KG though.

[bastillon]

Also, thought KG was a fair bit ahead of Malone in the regular season, what with the MVP voting, all NBA team, and all Defense.

They both played a common opponent in the playoffs, KG lost 3-1 in a 5 game series, and Malone lost 4-1 out of 7. Malone **** on Seattle, but he was stifled by Portland.

KG shot poorly, but Malone was brought down some too in that series (23 points on 44%). rebounding wasn't close, (10.8 to Malone's 8.2), passing wasn't even in the same realm (8.8 to Malone's 4).

The Jazz defense also collapsed against Portland, and they were blown out in the first 3 games before stealing one.

Garnett helped his team stifle the Portland offense, and he accounted for 40% of his teams points.

Still got Zo ahead of KG though.

feeling the same here. those 3 blowouts did it for me. when you're supposed to be close as a team and you lose 3 first games by 18 or more then there's something wrong with you. the series was over ever before Jazz showed up for it. it wasn't really Malone's fault, more on his crappy supporting cast like Stockton, but there are your limitations when you can't anchor the defense nor facilitate the offense without scoring.

I'd like to hear some more arguments on Payton vs Reggie vs Carter vs Kobe.

[Doctor MJ]

The reason Payton was ahead of KG in All-NBA voting etc was because there was little competition at that spot, KG ranked higher in MVP voting, which to me is a lot more telling.

I really don't understand why All-NBA voting is being brought up like it is. All-NBA is a comparison between guys of the same position, why would you even bring it up comparing a guard to a forward when both were MVP candidates?

[NO-KG-AI]

The reason Payton was ahead of KG in All-NBA voting etc was because there was little competition at that spot, KG ranked higher in MVP voting, which to me is a lot more telling.

I really don't understand why All-NBA voting is being brought up like it is. All-NBA is a comparison between guys of the same position, why would you even bring it up comparing a guard to a forward when both were MVP candidates?

I don't know why it's been brought up, Garnett finished 2nd in MVP voting, and people are trumpeting Payton getting more all NBA votes, when Garnett was first team anyway.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Here's my rankings...

1) Shaq
2) Zo
3) GP
4) Malone
5) Kobe

Obvisouly Shaq is #1. Phil challenged Shaq to get in shape and play defense when he came to LA, and Shaq to his credit delivered. His offense & defense was great, and his playoff performances legendary. Nuff said. Zo was a monster on defense(DPOY, #1 bpg) and the best player not named Shaq that year. GP got the third spot with his great 2-way play. He was the runaway best perimeter player this year, and did all he could in the PS. Malone gave 1 last great year to the NBA, and edges out Kobe for #4 by taking an old Jazz team so far. Kobe rounds out the list with tremendous defense, and 2-way play. His playoffs solidified him in the #5 spot.

HM: KG(great RS, ugly PS), TD (no PS)

[ElGee]

How does the efficiency differential work? Is it by team (which includes the backups)?

Same thing with the FG% against numbers - those are by team, correct?

It's based on postions, so it's not 100% accurate by any stretch. It includes the backup which lowers the accuracy, but most stars play major minutes anyway.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... iffeff/1-1

These are interesting, but I'd take them with a grain of salt, probably placing a little more value on the interior numbers than the perimeter players.

I think there's noise from:

(1) Players don't always match up exactly with their positions -- a 2 will guard a 3 (common) more often than a 4 will guard a 5 (rare).

(2) Backups are involved, so yes, starters account for 75% of the minutes but whether you're backup is Randy Brown or Steve Kerr will have a large impact on the defensive performance of that position.

(3) Playing with great defensive big men -- defensive "anchors" -- helps everyone's stats because of the presence in the paint and on help.

Given the lack of defensive figures from this period, it's something to consider at least.

FOLLOW UP: In 2008, the best defensive SG in the entire NBA, if we used these numbers (opp Eff, opp FG%, opp PPG), was Ray Allen. The best defensive SF? You guessed it, Paul Pierce (he was good, but the best?) So we should be extremely cautious about viewing these stats in a vacuum.

[lorak]

1. Shaq
2. Zo
3. Malone
4. Payton
5. Duncan
Duncan over KG because I can’t put so poorly shooting (in playoffs) big In top 5 (Webber was cut for the same reason in 2001). I would rather have a big man, who doesn’t play in playoffs at all, especially because Duncan’s stats are lowered by Robinson. You know guys, in some way each other sacrificed part of their stats and that’s one of the reasons why I think that in regular season Duncan was better than Garnett, more than “pure” stats suggest.

[ElGee]

1. Shaq
2. Zo
3. Malone
4. Payton
5. Duncan
Duncan over KG because I can’t put so poorly shooting (in playoffs) big In top 5 (Webber was cut for the same reason in 2001). I would rather have a big man, who doesn’t play in playoffs at all, especially because Duncan’s stats are lowered by Robinson. You know guys, in some way each other sacrificed part of their stats and that’s one of the reasons why I think that in regular season Duncan was better than Garnett, more than “pure” stats suggest.

But you voted for Ben Wallace in 2004. His TS% was .480 in the playoffs -- didn't seem to matter then...

This is inconsistent, no?

[ElGee]

The reason Payton was ahead of KG in All-NBA voting etc was because there was little competition at that spot, KG ranked higher in MVP voting, which to me is a lot more telling.

I really don't understand why All-NBA voting is being brought up like it is. All-NBA is a comparison between guys of the same position, why would you even bring it up comparing a guard to a forward when both were MVP candidates?

Isn't looking at these just indicative of the perception at the time anyway? I'm trying to avoid them until seasons I don't remember...

[lorak]

1. Shaq
2. Zo
3. Malone
4. Payton
5. Duncan
Duncan over KG because I can’t put so poorly shooting (in playoffs) big In top 5 (Webber was cut for the same reason in 2001). I would rather have a big man, who doesn’t play in playoffs at all, especially because Duncan’s stats are lowered by Robinson. You know guys, in some way each other sacrificed part of their stats and that’s one of the reasons why I think that in regular season Duncan was better than Garnett, more than “pure” stats suggest.

But you voted for Ben Wallace in 2004. His TS% was .480 in the playoffs -- didn't seem to matter then...

This is inconsistent, no?

No, because Ben isn’t big man who scores a lot so even if he was inefficient (but still was more efficient than KG or Webber) that doesn’t hurt his team. Besides look at that:

KG 2000: .385 FG%, 4 games, quick first round exit
Webber 2001: .388 FG%, 8 games, lost in 2nd round with champions (Lakers)
Ben 2004: .454 FG% (so he shoot much better than KG or CWebb), 23 games, best player on championship team

So I’m pretty consistent leaving KG and Cwebb off the ballot.

[NO-KG-AI]

Lol wow.

[ElGee]

1. Shaq
2. Zo
3. Malone
4. Payton
5. Duncan
Duncan over KG because I can’t put so poorly shooting (in playoffs) big In top 5 (Webber was cut for the same reason in 2001). I would rather have a big man, who doesn’t play in playoffs at all, especially because Duncan’s stats are lowered by Robinson. You know guys, in some way each other sacrificed part of their stats and that’s one of the reasons why I think that in regular season Duncan was better than Garnett, more than “pure” stats suggest.

But you voted for Ben Wallace in 2004. His TS% was .480 in the playoffs -- didn't seem to matter then...

This is inconsistent, no?

No, because Ben isn’t big man who scores a lot so even if he was inefficient (but still was more efficient than KG or Webber) that doesn’t hurt his team. Besides look at that:

KG 2000: .385 FG%, 4 games, quick first round exit
Webber 2001: .388 FG%, 8 games, lost in 2nd round with champions (Lakers)
Ben 2004: .454 FG% (so he shoot much better than KG or CWebb), 23 games, best player on championship team

So I’m pretty consistent leaving KG and Cwebb off the ballot.

Sorry, I don't follow you at all here.

Let's ignore the "best player on team" comment -- I'm fairly certain no team in NBA history has been led by a player who was literally an offensive liability -- and let's just focus on shooting.

KG's sample is 78 FGA's. If he makes just 2 shots more per game, he's right under 50%. It's a really small sample, against a championship-level team.

Wallace essentially provides no offense, nothing remotely approaching 8.8 apg in a series (or assists and offensive created throughout the season for a top offense) and his poor TS% was over 23 games, not 4. (KG was 55% in the first 81 games)

And your argument is you'd rather have Ben Wallace's offense over Kevin Garnett's and you'd rather Kevin Garnett didn't play at all?

[lorak]

And your argument is you'd rather have Ben Wallace's offense over Kevin Garnett's and you'd rather Kevin Garnett didn't play at all?

No, Ben Wallace played much more games and his team won title. That count for something here, isn’t it? That's why I put him on 5th place in 2004.

Second, he wasn’t offensive player, so his inefficient scoring (but still his FG% or TS% were better than KG’s in 2000!) doesn’t hurt team as much as KG’s or Webber’s.

Third, if Garnett would play more games (for example like Wallace in 2004) then I would put him in top 5. But 4 games and quick exit isn’t impressive enough to put him above player like Duncan, who missed playoffs, but was better in regular season (as I said – stats don’t show whole story, because he and Robinson sacrificed stats).

[ElGee]

Can those advocating Alonzo Mourning explain in greater depth why they have him so high? I never thought of Mourning as a top 4 or 5 player at any point in his career, and this would clearly be the year where he achieves that, but I'm not sold.

Here's how I see Mourning:

Excellent defensively. I think I'd rather have Shaq that year though, or prime Duncan, or maybe even prime KG, etc. This was a Pat Riley coached team, with good defensive pieces in place at many positions and a partner in crime in PJ Brown (I've come to believe interior defensive tandems are devastating, so I would expect better results if Zo were a defensive behemoth). The heat were -3.1 relative to league average in DRtg.

They did protect the paint very well, but we already knew that's where Mourning excels (3.9 bpg). But he does foul a lot -- more per game than any other starting center -- and I remember him being prone to some mistakes outside the paint (see: going for steal against Ewing in G7), although I'd trust a Heat's fans analysis of this more than memory.

Offensively, Mourning's the No. 1 option, but the team (Mash, Hardaway, Leonard) had quality offensive options and shooters. What I think sets Mourning apart from other elite bigs -- and this stood out in the two 4th quarters I just rewatched -- is his passing. He doesn't make teams pay for doubling him with the best, quickest available pass. As a result, the Heat don't retain an advantage when teams double him. Miami's ORtg was +0.4 relative to league average.

All told, I see an elite center, an excellent defensive anchor, but not someone I'd love to have late in games who isn't affecting games the way Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, etc. did. Top 10? Sure. Top 5? Maybe. But No. 2? Wouldn't he have propelled that team to better than a 2.75 SRS if that were the case? (Note: the SRS is almost identical to Minnesota's that year.)

[ElGee]

And your argument is you'd rather have Ben Wallace's offense over Kevin Garnett's and you'd rather Kevin Garnett didn't play at all?

No, Ben Wallace played much more games and his team won title. That count for something here, isn’t it? That's why I put him on 5th place in 2004.

Second, he wasn’t offensive player, so his inefficient scoring (but still his FG% or TS% were better than KG’s in 2000!) doesn’t hurt team as much as KG’s or Webber’s.

Third, if Garnett would play more games (for example like Wallace in 2004) then I would put him in top 5. But 4 games and quick exit isn’t impressive enough to put him above player like Duncan, who missed playoffs, but was better in regular season (as I said – stats don’t show whole story, because he and Robinson sacrificed stats).

Isn't this exactly what Doctor MJ doesn't want us to do? It says it in the directions in every thread. You're rewarding a player for GP because he was on a significantly better team than another player and went deeper because of it.

I also don't understand how "inefficient, non-offensive player" always is BETTER than "inefficient, No. 1 offensive player who set up teammates" for 4 games and was actually an efficient elite offensive player for 81 games.

[shawngoat23]

1. Shaq by a landslide
2. Alonzo Mourning
3. Karl Malone
4. Tim Duncan
5. Kevin Garnett

#2-5 can really go in any order.