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Retro POY '97-98 (Voting Complete)

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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#41 » by ronnymac2 » Sat May 22, 2010 11:09 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:Duncan vs. Robinson is THE COMPARISON in this thread imo. This is the last year where Robinson's production is staggering. I don't really like Robinson as a player because I feel his greatness is tied too much to simply being productive as a player as opposed to really effecting a game, and since his style of play allows for his production to decline in the playoffs, I think less of him as a player.


Your thoughts on the drastic turnaround when they first got Robinson, when Robinson got hurt, and when Robinson returned? Not saying it was all due to Robinson, but it seems pretty that he was impacting W-L pretty strongly.


My thoughts on these situations are this: If I needed a guy to carry an all right supporting cast to 55 wins for about seven years straight while dropping 25/12/3/3/1.5 and being a top three defensive player in NBA history, David Robinson is a good player to take. His production in the regular season was massive and it consistently lifted his team in the regular season. Without him pumping in the production that he did, his teams would be doomed.

Robinson as the main man didn't have the tools to effect the game as much against great playoff competition (both players and teams). I don't care that his Spurs didn't win. I care that he failed individually many times. That's why I think less of him as a player than most. That said, he's still firmly in my top 20 all-time, and at times in my top 15 (depending on the day).
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#42 » by ElGee » Sat May 22, 2010 11:30 pm

^^^Furthermore, it's just important in general to view those numbers in context. If LeBron James played with Tim Duncan and Dennis Rodman, his rebounding numbers would probably decrease, just because those guys are there to snatch more rebounds.

I'm not wild about the "relative to position" analysis, or at least not wild about looking to it as an absolute method of comparing rebounding. It implies that it's better to have a PG who is +0.5 rpg relative to position than a big who is a net even relative to position, but the reality is the big is still contributing more. I suppose you could argue that the PG would be a more valuable rebounder IF his teammates were all average and our big man's teammates were all average. Then it's the PG who was providing the extra 0.5 rpg for his team. Without looking at context or team results, we don't know if that's true. But if my big man is just scooping up nearly every available rebounding, his teammates have less of a difference to make up anyway.

In other words, Jason Kidd's rebounding doesn't necessarily make his team an elite rebounding club, but Dennis Rodman's always does. I've only done a cursory glance at the top single rebounding seasons, but this seems to hold true for elite rebounding bigs vs. elite rebounding guards.

So yes, I think it's fair to say Malone's rebounding is an advantage, even if it's just a minor one.
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#43 » by ronnymac2 » Sat May 22, 2010 11:31 pm

ElGee wrote:^^^Ronny, I think for a myriad of reasons, Robinson goes ahead of Duncan here. You pointed out many of them accurately. My question is, can anyone else jump ahead of Duncan? Payton perhaps?


I'm not sure yet. My first three are likely to be Jordan, Malone, and O'neal in some order. Then I have Robinson, Duncan, Payton, and Hill battling. All I know is Robinson is ahead of Duncan.

Pippen didn't play enough. The Houston superstars were too old. KG hadn't arrived yet. This wasn't Penny's year, and Patrick didn't play enough. Stockton isn't good enough, Rice is too one-dimensional (and flat-out bad in certain areas), and Shawn Kemp regressed without Payton (really shows why I think Kemp is overrated in general). Alonzo was better than Deke. I'm not in love with Tim Hardaway as a player. No to Kidd this year. I think Reggie deserves a little love, but I brought him up in 2000 (just as an honorable mention), and he didn't get much attention, so....

Out of the group above, only Alonzo is equipped with a case to battle The Spurs, Hill, and Glove. I'll put him in as a darkhorse.

I remember at the time (though my nba knowledge wasn't the best at this point) I thought Jordan, Malone, O'neal, and Payton were the best players in the league. I must have thought GP was good for some reason.

Gp did destroy a young but talented Starbury in the first round of the playoffs that year.
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#44 » by Dr Positivity » Sun May 23, 2010 12:18 am

ElGee wrote:^^^Furthermore, it's just important in general to view those numbers in context. If LeBron James played with Tim Duncan and Dennis Rodman, his rebounding numbers would probably decrease, just because those guys are there to snatch more rebounds.

I'm not wild about the "relative to position" analysis, or at least not wild about looking to it as an absolute method of comparing rebounding. It implies that it's better to have a PG who is +0.5 rpg relative to position than a big who is a net even relative to position, but the reality is the big is still contributing more. I suppose you could argue that the PG would be a more valuable rebounder IF his teammates were all average and our big man's teammates were all average. Then it's the PG who was providing the extra 0.5 rpg for his team. Without looking at context or team results, we don't know if that's true. But if my big man is just scooping up nearly every available rebounding, his teammates have less of a difference to make up anyway.

In other words, Jason Kidd's rebounding doesn't necessarily make his team an elite rebounding club, but Dennis Rodman's always does. I've only done a cursory glance at the top single rebounding seasons, but this seems to hold true for elite rebounding bigs vs. elite rebounding guards.

So yes, I think it's fair to say Malone's rebounding is an advantage, even if it's just a minor one.


Rodman is a greater rebounder for his position though. Let's say 8rpg PF is average. Rodman was grabbing 16-18 pre Chicago (+8-10), and 15-16 in Chicago (+7-8). Jason Kidd grabbed 6-7, if 3rpg is regular for a PG, that's +3-4, like half as much as Rodman. If Kidd grabbed 10-13rpg as a PG I think his value as a rebounder could logically be as high as Rodman's because he'd be playing with a PF who's much more likely to get rebounds than the PG Rodman's playing with

I agree rebounding is a bit of a tricky thing because of the effect teammates have on each other, and the impact a big can have by boxing out. But I disagree a great rebounder automatically makes his team elite on the boards. Hakeem and KG are two bigs who played on a lot of mediocore to bad rebounding teams despite grabbing 12rpg+.
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#45 » by shawngoat23 » Sun May 23, 2010 12:33 am

Here's my top 5:

1. Michael Jordan - Statistically, this may be his weakest season as a Bull (not counting his injury season and comeback season), and on the basis of just regular season, I wouldn't object to having Karl Malone and possibly other players ahead of him. But in the end, Jordan came through in the postseason when it mattered. Whereas in previous seasons, the Bulls came home with championships with arguably superior teams, I don't think that was the case this year. Scottie Pippen was hurting and Dennis Rodman was falling off. Jordan carried the load for the Bulls offensively; it might not have been statistically pleasing from an efficiency standpoint (most of the games in question were defensive struggles), but he did everything he needed to do to win.

2. Karl Malone - I would not have objected to this choice for regular season MVP, but in the playoffs, Michael showed that even in his final (real) year, he had an extra gear that other superstars in the league simply could not match.

3. Gary Payton - As a young fan, I thought Shawn Kemp was the top dog on the Sonics teams of the mid-90's. They lost Kemp over the offseason but didn't miss a beat, with the Glove leading them to an impressive 61 wins, doing a superb job on both ends of the court.

4. Shaquille O'Neal - By 1998, Shaq had established himself as the game's premier center and arguably the most unstoppable force in the regular season. His tangibles (especially in terms of leadership) are still somewhat of a question, but I have no problem with him here.

5. Split between Tim Duncan and David Robinson - I don't think you could clearly say that either was better than the other this year, so I'll call it a tie for my 5th spot. Robinson had the prettier advanced stats, Tim finished higher in MVP balloting, logged more minutes, and provided more consistent offense (especially in the postseason).
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#46 » by Dr Positivity » Sun May 23, 2010 12:47 am

1. Michael Jordan - Same reasoning I had for Shaq over Tim Duncan in 02. Malone had the sexier regular season, but Jordan was the league's alpha daddy at this point. Jordan proved the 97 MVP was stupid by winning that finals, then won again in 98 with a super old team and beat up Pippen

2. Karl Malone - Great regular season, made the Finals. Didn't have the cajones of Jordan

3. Shaq - Getting near prime form. His weakness (pnr d) made him liable to Utah in the playoffs. But he also killed #4 on this list in the round before so no matter

4. Gary Payton - 61 wins post Kemp = arguably his most impressive year

5. David Robinson - I like him over Duncan for this year. Give me the experience and leadership of the team.
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#47 » by ElGee » Sun May 23, 2010 6:30 am

Dr Mufasa wrote:
ElGee wrote:^^^Furthermore, it's just important in general to view those numbers in context. If LeBron James played with Tim Duncan and Dennis Rodman, his rebounding numbers would probably decrease, just because those guys are there to snatch more rebounds.

I'm not wild about the "relative to position" analysis, or at least not wild about looking to it as an absolute method of comparing rebounding. It implies that it's better to have a PG who is +0.5 rpg relative to position than a big who is a net even relative to position, but the reality is the big is still contributing more. I suppose you could argue that the PG would be a more valuable rebounder IF his teammates were all average and our big man's teammates were all average. Then it's the PG who was providing the extra 0.5 rpg for his team. Without looking at context or team results, we don't know if that's true. But if my big man is just scooping up nearly every available rebounding, his teammates have less of a difference to make up anyway.

In other words, Jason Kidd's rebounding doesn't necessarily make his team an elite rebounding club, but Dennis Rodman's always does. I've only done a cursory glance at the top single rebounding seasons, but this seems to hold true for elite rebounding bigs vs. elite rebounding guards.

So yes, I think it's fair to say Malone's rebounding is an advantage, even if it's just a minor one.


Rodman is a greater rebounder for his position though. Let's say 8rpg PF is average. Rodman was grabbing 16-18 pre Chicago (+8-10), and 15-16 in Chicago (+7-8). Jason Kidd grabbed 6-7, if 3rpg is regular for a PG, that's +3-4, like half as much as Rodman. If Kidd grabbed 10-13rpg as a PG I think his value as a rebounder could logically be as high as Rodman's because he'd be playing with a PF who's much more likely to get rebounds than the PG Rodman's playing with

I agree rebounding is a bit of a tricky thing because of the effect teammates have on each other, and the impact a big can have by boxing out. But I disagree a great rebounder automatically makes his team elite on the boards. Hakeem and KG are two bigs who played on a lot of mediocore to bad rebounding teams despite grabbing 12rpg+.


This is interesting -- I'll have to look into it more. I'm not sure raw numbers are the best way to think about it though...I also don't think of Hakeem and KG as being on that level of separation, but let's look at the years they were at the least on top of the league, since as I said, I glanced at this and didn't look at them.

In 1990 Hakeem led the league in TRB%% and DRB% and KG led in 05 (and from 04-07 in DRB% alone). Here are the team DRB% ranks (ORB% rank in parens):

Rockets
1990 6 (11)

TWvoles
2004 9 (23)
2005 13 (17)
2006 23 (28)
2007 19 (24)

So, it seems there is something to what you're saying. I still don't see how the fact that bigs are grabbing more rebounds (meaning there is less of a possibility the team could be missing the other rebounds) doesn't factor in in favor for big men. It would be a lot easier to figure out if we could work with league averages and we knew how well the other 4 teammates on the court rebounded as well. :)
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#48 » by semi-sentient » Sun May 23, 2010 10:33 am

  1. Michael Jordan - Great in the regular season, even greater in the playoffs. Despite Pippen missing more than half the season, the Bulls were still tied for the best record in the league. Ask yourself how the Jazz would fare if Stockton missed anywhere near that much time. Not nearly as good. In the playoffs, as usual, Jordan's game improved while Malone's declined. There's nothing much else to say other than Jordan played better and led his team to victory, while Malone didn't.
  2. Karl Malone - Great overall season, but simply over-shadowed by MJ. This will be a recurring theme.
  3. Gary Payton - Fantastic on both ends of the floor, and despite falling short against Shaq's Lakers (played well overall, despite not so great shooting), I think being a great two-way player (and he was) and leading the Sonics to 60+ wins (with drunkard Baker instead of Kemp) is too much to ignore. Playing in all possible games is what gives him the slightest of edges over Shaq though.
  4. Shaquille O'Neal - Dominant season (incredible in the playoffs -- outside of Game 1 against the Jazz), but I can't ignore how many games he missed. That's a huge deal, and really, it's a testament to how good he was that he got as much award recognition despite his lack of games played. Had Shaq played all 82 games, he would have probably been #1, even over Jordan.
  5. Tim Duncan - Incredible rookie season. Despite what Robinson was doing, I have to give Timmy the nod here. He played more games and minutes (pretty big gap), and so I give him a slight edge over Robinson. Really close though.
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#49 » by TrueLAfan » Sun May 23, 2010 2:26 pm

1. MJ--Post seasons heroics elevate him above Malone...but it's close. MJ became mortal this year. He was clearly slowing down during the regular season; his knees were bothering him more and more. I was glad he retired, because he closed the deal in his--then--final game.
2. Malone--Really close....Malone had a good post-season, and played well in the finals. Didn't come through in the second half of game 6. Got the ball stolen. Was probably the MVP for 82 regular seasons games and 25 and one half playoff games.
3. Payton--Really good season for GP. Played well in the playoffs.
4. TD--Played 50% more minutes than Shaq. Stop and think about that. Shaq was better. but is he enough better to counter having Duncan out there for three games out of three instead of two games out of three? I have to put TD higher.
5. Tim Hardaway--See above. I know Shaq was a stud in the playoffs...but so was the Bug.

HM Shaq--As noted, he missed 22 games. Had he played 82, or been transcendent in the playoffs, he might have moved up more. When he played, he was better than Payton... a little. But he barely played 2000 minutes. He did not work well with Del Harris and, contrary to what Shaquille O'Neal thought at the time, Shaquille O'Neal; was not a complete basketball player. A bean counter's delight again. Not as valuable for his team--and that's a huge part of player value for me.

Side Note: Putting rebounds in a team context is one of the most difficult things to do in terms of statistical analysis. I'm going to put a post about this on the statistical analysis board later today.
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#50 » by tkb » Sun May 23, 2010 2:57 pm

I'll go with;

1. Michael Jordan
2. Karl Malone
3. Gary Payton
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Tim Duncan
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#51 » by lorak » Sun May 23, 2010 3:01 pm

1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Robinson
4. Payton
5. Shaq
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#52 » by Sedale Threatt » Sun May 23, 2010 3:34 pm

1. Jordan. With his physical skills in decline, this season showcased his greatest attribute -- the iron will to win. Simply put, he did whatever it took to win championship No. 6.

2. Malone. Another great season, on both ends, followed by the trademark dip in form when it mattered most. Yeah, that's a small bit of the season, but it had a huge impact.

3. Shaq. Missed a bunch of games, but that doesn't bother me as much as some. Great statistical season was marred by the Utah sweep, in which he still played pretty well.

4. Payton. As noted by others, impressive job leading the post-Kemp Sonice to 61 wins. One of my favorite players at that point in his career.

5. Duncan. This boils down strictly to impression, with no real statistical backup. It just seemed to me that the Spurs were pretty clearly Tim's team by the end of the year.
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#53 » by ronnymac2 » Sun May 23, 2010 5:57 pm

The more I think about it, the more I think MJ has to be first. He wasn't at his best, but this may have been his most impressive season ever. And he was that damn good of a player. This was the first season where I really paid a lot of attention to the NBA finals; I remember watching gm 6 back then and thinking, "well, obviously MJ hit the last shot...he's Michael Jordan." I re-watched that game about year ago, and it made me appreciate older MJ's game so much more. The dude was 35 years old and was able to score more than half his team's points in a defensive struggle of a game, on the other guy's court, with his right hand man at less than 100%. I think if Utah pulls that game out, they win game 7. But MJ goes off in the 4th and makes all the clutch plays down the stretch.

I can't ask anything more of a player.

He also won ASG MVP (I know, doesn't count for anything, but...), finals mvp, and REG SEA MVP in the same season, along with the scoring title and a bunch of other accolades. He could still clearly be one of the more dominant players when it comes to stats. He won a title. Only Shaq could be considered at Jordan's level as a player right now, but I MIGHT still take MJ over O'neal this year to start a team for a year. MJ winning basically every other tiebreaker I have means MJ wins handily.

Shaq and Malone are very close. The way I see it, Shaq is the superior player right now, and I'd rather have the superior player over 60 games than the inferior player over 81 as long as the superior player plays in all my playoff games. Shaq played well in the playoffs and WCF against Malone. He goes ahead of Malone. Malone is better than everybody else.

I'd take D-Rob at this point over Alonzo. The fourth spot is really Robinson vs. Hill vs. Payton. I think I'll take GP over Hill. At the time, I thought GP was a top-4 player. GP wins most of the tiebreakers, so he goes ahead. I think I'd take Robinson over Hill, too.

Robinson vs. Payton is interesting. While I think Robinson was better than Duncan this year (by a little bit), it was sort of a year of transition for the Spurs. Robinson was handing the team to Duncan while still being able to really pull his own weight as arguably the best player on the team. I think Robinson could still do many of the things that a prime Robinson could do- at least this season. I think he could have carried a team without Duncan being there.

I'm going to put Robinson over GP. It is VERY close though, and it goes against the thoughts of my earliest years of legitimate interest in the NBA, but I'll put Robinson over Payton.


Final Ranking:

Michael Jordan
Shaquille O'neal
Karl Malone
David Robinson
Gary Payton
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#54 » by Optimism Prime » Sun May 23, 2010 6:08 pm

1. Michael Jordan - This was the end of the Jordan Era. But at the same time, it wasn't the beginning of the Shaq or Duncan Era, or the tail end of the Stockton-to-Malone Era. When Jordan is at the height of his powers, the league is his. I have to go with him here.
2. Karl Malone
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Gary Payton
5. David Robinson - I understand the arguments for Duncan, but... I have a hard time putting a rookie in my top-five unless they had an absolutely transcendent season. Duncan didn't. He was great, don't get me wrong, but the Spurs were still Robinson's team at the time.
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#55 » by Gongxi » Sun May 23, 2010 6:33 pm

And that's the big point- beside the efficiency and production: Robinson was still David Robinson! Tim Duncan was just some guy out of Wake Forest everyone thought would be good down the road. The Spurs were still David Robinson's baby.
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#56 » by semi-sentient » Sun May 23, 2010 7:15 pm

The Spurs got nowhere with the Admiral at the helm (one WCF?), so who cares if it was "his team"? Duncan produced similarly on both ends, with the big difference being that he was on the floor longer and played in more games.
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#57 » by lorak » Sun May 23, 2010 7:21 pm

semi-sentient wrote: Duncan produced similarly on both ends,


Not really.
In 1998 Robinson was significantly better defender than Duncan and also slightly better offensive player: better efficiency (.581 TS% to .577 TS%) with much better PER: 27.8 to 22.6! In playoffs Robinson’s efficiency drop offs but he still was overall better than Duncan (better PER, WS and WS/48 with some amazing results like 6.0 BLK% and 21.2 TRB% to only Duncan’s 12.8 TRB%).
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#58 » by Gongxi » Sun May 23, 2010 7:28 pm

semi-sentient wrote:The Spurs got nowhere with the Admiral at the helm (one WCF?), so who cares if it was "his team"? Duncan produced similarly on both ends, with the big difference being that he was on the floor longer and played in more games.

What do you mean 'who cares'? The team ran through him. And he had better production. I'd think we'd care, since we're doing this project.
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#59 » by 96 Til Infiniti » Sun May 23, 2010 8:03 pm

tkb wrote:I'll go with;

1. Michael Jordan
2. Karl Malone
3. Gary Payton
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Tim Duncan


Can't argue with this one. GP was outstanding that season.
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Re: Retro POY '97-98 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#60 » by ItsMillerTime » Sun May 23, 2010 8:40 pm

1. Jordan - His great postseason puts him ahead of Malone for me
2. Malone- Great all around season for him, and showed he didn't need a prime Stockton to dominate
3. Payton- Really suprised a lot of people leading those Sonics to a great season
4. Shaq- Lack of playing time costs him from being top 3.
5. TD/Robinson- Ive read all of the arguments for both of these players in this thread, and I still can't decide who was the better player.

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