Retro POY '92-93 (Voting Complete)

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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#41 » by lorak » Fri Jun 4, 2010 9:55 pm

kaima wrote:

If Robinson's regular season stats and play mean so much, then the crash he had against Malone logically is a huge deal as well.


No, it isn’t. You overrates particular matchups in PS and underrates regular season performance. When in fact even if we weight PS three times (like for example mysticbb) then regular season is still about 25% more worth. That’s why if player A had much, much better RS than player B, but worse PS we could rank player A higher.

Look, according to mysticbb stat (RS+3xPS) in 1994 Robinson was about 5 pts better than Olajuwon and about 10 points better than Malone. So it seems that 5 pts difference is small enough to move player up if he had more success in PS – that’s why HO above DR (keep in mind that I also rank HO at no 1). But 10 points is too big. You know what, if mystibb will post his numbers for that season (1993) and Malone’s advantage will be about 10 points (just like Robinson’s in 1994) I’will put Malone above Robinson on my list.


How are you measuring this? If Robinson's defense was such a huge factor in his favor, why did it disappear in post matchups so often? Why did so many teams score relatively easily on SA?


Again, you overrates particular games from playoffs and ignores 82 games from regular season. What’s more interesting you even penalizing Robinson for Malone’s production despite Rodman was the one who was guarding Mailman.
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#42 » by ronnymac2 » Fri Jun 4, 2010 10:11 pm

Kaima- I just watched the game. That is very true about Kemp's defense, but he certainly did not do more than Hakeem in this game, or even in this quarter.

The Rockets were smart at the beginning of the game, but then Seattle turned on the press (that press is diesel). The Sonics started controlling the tempo with that defense, making Houston take stupid shots, and then running and gunning. Hakeem's transition defense, especially in the second quarter, is the best transition defense I've ever seen out of a center. He guarded Shawn Kemp the whole half and completely shut him down. He dominated the defensive glass, boxing out Kemp multimple times.

In the third qurter, Seattle made their run. Here Kemp's defense shown through, but Hakeem kept Houston from getting run out of the building right here with offensive rebounds and scoring. They took Hakeem out of the game at the end of the quarter, and right away Kemp goes one vs. one and gets fouled on a drive inside, which is something he didn't dare do with Hakeem guarding him.

In the fourth, Hakeem's passing and defense were excellent, and he continued to shut down Kemp. He hit a huge shot with a minute left, then found Horry for a J 30 seconds later, giving HOU the lead. Seattle then scored (IIRC, Pierce). Then in OT, Hakeem continued to make plays on both ends, but Seattle held on.

The only thing to count against Hakeem in this game was his inability to score with 5 seconds left to win the game, an inherent flaw of a big. He was amazing in this game though. He completely shut down Shawn Kemp while dominating the glass and playing help defense. The offense ran through him, and he made creative passes and huge shots. He was aggressive and got to the line 10 times.

Houston's big flaw in the matchup was that they didn't really have creative ball-handlers that could break that press. I'm amazed Olajuwon was able to produce what he did, because Houston couldn't get him the ball a lot. Sam Perkins and Ricky Pierce were huge in this game ( and series) for Seattle. It seems Mckey was a Lamar Odom-like X-factor, too. In the games they won, it seemed he played well (gm6 an exception).

In that game 7, HOU's pf play was atrocious. Thorpe was in foul trouble and missed all 4 of his free throws. Herrera was bad on both ends and missed 3 of 4 free throws. Sam Perkins destroyed them. You can't put Hakeem on him, because then Kemp runs all over you and Perkins takes Hakeem to the arc, where Hakeem can't effectively play help d.

The announcers said Hakeem defended Kemp for much of the series. Kemp was awful in the series.

The first six games were mainly blowouts. Houston won their home games by 15, Seattle by 14. Game 7 was the only really close game.



I don't know....I think Olajuwon played some great basketball. He ripped his matchup apart and played great team basketball on both ends. The only guy I see going over Dream is Michael Jordan.
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#43 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jun 4, 2010 11:25 pm

Some thoughts on Barkley's impact with the Suns:

Team record: 62-20
Record w/out KJ: 25-8, on pace for 61.1 wins.

The fact that Barkley & KJ together didn't boost the team as much as you'd hope is noteworthy, but when just trying to evaluate Barkley recognize he was capable of leading the team sans-KJ to the best record in the league.

Regarding the improvement of the Suns the previous year. The team won 53 games with a core of 3 healthy guy: KJ, Hornacek, and Majerle. With KJ and Hornacek being fantastic offensive players the team had the 5th best ORtg in the league. Barkley comes, they lose Hornacek, and miss KJ for almost half the year, and the ORtg goes up to 1st in the league. I find this pretty remarkable.

Also to address, the Olympics. As mentioned before, the accomplishments of the Olympics are strictly relevant here, however it's fine to us them to form your opinion of players. I personally find it interesting that Barkley was the star of '92 & '96 Olympics over Jordan and Olajuwon respectively.


With all that said, Jordan's my clear #1 this year, and I'm strongly considering Hakeem at #2.
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#44 » by semi-sentient » Fri Jun 4, 2010 11:34 pm

Alright, Hakeem at #1 wasn't gaining much traction, so moved him down to #2. ;)
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#45 » by ElGee » Fri Jun 4, 2010 11:48 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Some thoughts on Barkley's impact with the Suns:

Team record: 62-20
Record w/out KJ: 25-8, on pace for 61.1 wins.

The fact that Barkley & KJ together didn't boost the team as much as you'd hope is noteworthy, but when just trying to evaluate Barkley recognize he was capable of leading the team sans-KJ to the best record in the league.

Regarding the improvement of the Suns the previous year. The team won 53 games with a core of 3 healthy guy: KJ, Hornacek, and Majerle. With KJ and Hornacek being fantastic offensive players the team had the 5th best ORtg in the league. Barkley comes, they lose Hornacek, and miss KJ for almost half the year, and the ORtg goes up to 1st in the league. I find this pretty remarkable.

Also to address, the Olympics. As mentioned before, the accomplishments of the Olympics are strictly relevant here, however it's fine to us them to form your opinion of players. I personally find it interesting that Barkley was the star of '92 & '96 Olympics over Jordan and Olajuwon respectively.


With all that said, Jordan's my clear #1 this year, and I'm strongly considering Hakeem at #2.


You didn't mention Richard Dumas. 18-5, 52% shooting and excellent defense in 32 starts as a rookie. He was a monster and is now completely forgotten due to his cocaine-induced flameout.

What an amazing year for dramatic narratives: Oliver Miller was thin(ner). Dumas. The Dream Team. Chaz Smith. The Bulls 3-peat. Jordan's Dad. Jordan retires. Reggie Lewis and Drazen Petrovic die. Saddens me just typing that.

re: Barkley. I think Phoenix's offense was so good because Barkley's passing was on another level that year. Watching the old games, that's what stands out to me -- they could "run offense" through him, so to speak, where he'd just iso and wait and hit cutters, shooters or punish double teams. If they didn't double, he'd use the round mound and go to work with great efficiency. He could still grab the board and go coast-to-coast, and I think pairing him with West/Miller/Dumas/Majerle allowed the defense to be above average because Chuck inhaled defensive rebounds that year (26% DRB rate).
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#46 » by kaima » Sat Jun 5, 2010 12:50 am

DavidStern wrote:
kaima wrote:

If Robinson's regular season stats and play mean so much, then the crash he had against Malone logically is a huge deal as well.


No, it isn’t. You overrates particular matchups in PS and underrates regular season performance.


Actually, you're the one trying to ignore regular season stats in this case. That's been my point from the start -- your standards and how they're fluctuating with player bias.

As for my own standards, I've explained it over and over again. If you spot a contradiction, point it out.

And, as in this thread, you've run from any pertinent questions as regards skillsets and the differences in performance between seasons.

You also seem to value the regular season far less in this instance than you did in 94, 95 or 96. All coincidentally, I'm sure, taking place parallel and through David Robinson's peak, where he likewise drowned in every postseason.

Look, according to mysticbb stat (RS+3xPS) in 1994 Robinson was about 5 pts better than Olajuwon and about 10 points better than Malone.


And according to actuated on-court stats, Malone was about ten points better than Robinson in a matchup context.

But of course, to you, that's beside the point.

So it seems that 5 pts difference is small enough to move player up if he had more success in PS – that’s why HO above DR (keep in mind that I also rank HO at no 1). But 10 points is too big.


Oh, you mean like 29 ppg versus 20?

Those numbers work on so many levels for D-Rob's 94.

How are you measuring this? If Robinson's defense was such a huge factor in his favor, why did it disappear in post matchups so often? Why did so many teams score relatively easily on SA?


Again, you overrates particular games from playoffs and ignores 82 games from regular season.


It seems to me, by your new standards for Malone V Robinson in this thread, that you underrated what Malone did versus Robinson in the playoffs in the last thread. That's the key, and the bone of contention.

As for overrating what Malone did, I wouldn't know why I'd trust your judgment on that matter seeing as you simply would prefer to ignore or extirpate it from the record.

It returns to skillset issues, and the ability towards elite post play. Robinson clearly was a factor below in these areas. To be kind.

What’s more interesting you even penalizing Robinson for Malone’s production despite Rodman was the one who was guarding Mailman.


As usual, you ignore what you don't like.

I told you again and again, to my recollection, that SA tried switches on Malone where Robinson would have him much of the time.

Rodman also missed a full game (tried to injure Stockton, got suspended).

Further, how is it that a frontline of Dennis Rodman and David Robinson can't even keep Malone at his season average when the two are so formidable defensively? Why is it that Robinson's Spurs had so little success stopping teams with star post players, or even slowing them down, if Robinson's defense was so awe-inspiring?

Why doesn't Robinson have anything close, as the main man, on his resume to rival what Mutombo did to the 94 Sonics? While that was going on, Malone was dropping 30+ points on SA's Robinson-led defense.

At this point, I know these are rhetorical questions. You won't answer, I surmise, because you can't.

What's bothersome, though, as regards this polling is that you won't stick to a standard other than overrating David Robinson.
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#47 » by kaima » Sat Jun 5, 2010 1:04 am

ronnymac2 wrote:Kaima- I just watched the game. That is very true about Kemp's defense, but he certainly did not do more than Hakeem in this game, or even in this quarter.


I have watched the game in a similar fashion to Kemp's play: frenetically. I jumped around, trying to catch key runs rather than watching the whole thing.

Kemp didn't really get started until that quarter, and that's when the Sonics became serious or at least looked it. Kemp's problem is pacing, but when he gets on a run you'd better watch out.

There's a volatility that is/was lethal. Problem is how that played for not only the opposing team but also his own.

Kemp brings a sense of constant movement or at least the need for it in his play. Somewhat odd in a post player, but also rather exciting.

Underrated? Very likely. But also, even at his best, the sense that he's very raw.

When he gets the energy high the problem seems to become that he doesn't know how to tone it down. He just pushes pushes pushes, and that results in quick runs, but also foul trouble.

I don't think he was better than Olajuwon overall, but in some ways I think his will came to dictate large portions of the action. For parts of that third, that certainly included primacy over Olajuwon's side of it.

For the entire game? No.

Looking at this Sonics team, there's a real likability and cool to them. I really dig this team. Which is kind of ironic and sad, but there you go.

Keep in mind, I have yet to watch the fourth quarter or OT. I'll add more after I look at that.

The announcers said Hakeem defended Kemp for much of the series. Kemp was awful in the series.


Looking at the numbers, you should be happy to know that your overall position might be helped in that Kemp was not very good against Utah or Houston but, at the least, impressive against the Suns.

I'll post the comparative stats later.

Gotta book (as in go; I know, the kiddie 90s slang was what really needs to go).
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#48 » by ElGee » Sat Jun 5, 2010 1:06 am

Baller 24 wrote:Olajuwon was great, all the contract stuff and trade demands aside, a new coach in place, he decided to just work with what they had an utilize it to it's fullest extent. Solid season, I've got him at 2 right now with Jordan at 1. Barkley coming in at 3.

Need some suggestions for 4 and 5? There's also Karl Malone who's solid as always, but how come there hasn't been a mention of Patrick Ewing here? I'm down to putting him at a solid 4 right now. Probably anchoring that 90s Knicks defense at PEAK form, I'd love to here a little bit more about him (sp6r?), his production in the playoffs didn't even take a dip.

From my understanding, it was a completely choke-fest from multiple players on the team, while having HCA against the Bulls, but completely blowing it.


Forgot to jump in on this Baller. Ewing's defense was really quite exceptional that year and the 93 Knicks might be the best defense ever. I mean, they fouled on every play, but whatever it takes to be nearly FIVE POINTS better than the second best defense in DRtg.

I think there are a decent amount of Knicks games from that year on youtube. It's the weekend and they should be watched for those who haven't seen them in a while. For entertainment/MJ/Ewing purposes, I'd start with the Chaz Smith game (G5 of the ECF). Even my laptop can tell that game was intense - the fan immediately turns on.
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#49 » by Gongxi » Sat Jun 5, 2010 1:51 am

Just for posterity's sake, I'm going to say that throughout this thing I'm going mostly by on-court production, with games in December mattering as much as games in March, and games in the playoffs meaning only about 50% more than games in the regular season. Which is to say: if you play 20 playoff games and 82 regular season games, your regular season still accounts for roughly 2/3rds of where I'm placing you. Why? Because a 20 game sample size pales in comparison to 82 or, together, 102 games.

Also, I don't much care about how well your team did. It's basketball, not ping pong- one player can't dictate whether an entire team wins or loses. That said, the Gongxi top 5 for 1992-1993 are:


1- Michael Jordan Even I'm sick of handing the award to him, I can see how the voters felt. Again, while better than contenders such as Malone, Olajuwon, and Barkley, he was only a 'head' better as opposed to the 'head and shoulders' better he was from 1988 to 1990. Of note: perhaps the most amazing Finals appearance ever (certainly by a 'little guy'): 41 ppg, 9 rpg, 6 apg. That's just dumb.

2- Hakeem Olajuwon 26/13/4/4/2 on 58%TS through all 82 games of the regular season and probably the best defender in the game as well. Went 26/14/5/5/2 on 57% TS. I think this is easily his best season, personally. I think the bedtime stories about how Hakeem's playoff runs in 94 and 95 make him the better player from November to April, too, are more than a little overstated.

3- Charles Barkley I guess Chuck is insistent on having me rate him down a little due to not playing a bunch of games- the last several seasons he's suffered because of that. As I'm sure many people know, this was Charles' season. This was quintessential Barkley, and where that started and where the Suns' "Season of Destiny" ended is hard to discern (it was their 25th anniversary as a team and many people felt their ascension was inevitable. Lots of folks don't remember that anymore, but it was very, very real at the time. Defeating that phenomena was a large part of what made Jordan "Jordan". I've talked enough without really mentioning Charles' production, but I'm sure other people will so whatever.

4- Patrick Ewing Unfortunately, this might've been Ewing's season, too. I say unfortunately because as a bystander at the time, you really would've expected more. You got a little more next year in the Finals but...as people have mentioned, this team was one of the best of all-time defensively and going into the ECF, they had the world by the balls. 27/11 isn't Hakeem territory, but it is still plenty respectable. 26/11 on only slightly worse shooting in the playoffs is as well.

5- Karl Malone Old faithful. Replace anything I've said about him previously and plug it in here and it's pretty much still applicable.

To be honest, I really wanted to get Larry Johnson in there this season, but I have to be true to the project. To make up for that, he'll be my ONLY honorable mention this year. Those five guys and Grandmama.
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#50 » by Baller 24 » Sat Jun 5, 2010 1:56 am

Karl Malone will probably be added to my list too, but since the 2000 season, Malone's been in the top 5 every single season. Remarkable, and he's got more to come.
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#51 » by Dr Positivity » Sat Jun 5, 2010 5:34 am

1. Michael Jordan
2. Barkley
3. Hakeem
4. Ewing
5. Robinson

Jordan at 1 is easy for me, he was at his peak and destroyed in the playoffs and finals.

I feel very confident putting Barkley over Hakeem at 2. Regular season I give the slight edge to Barkley, you can't ask more than 62 wins with KJ missing so much time, and as DMJ pointed out they played at a similar pace without Johnson proving Barkley's impact. He was the MVP of the RS. In the playoffs I give Barkley the clear edge as well. As I said before the kicking point is both players going 7 with Seattle, but while Hakeem stayed at his normal level, Barkley went into another one entirely and dropped 43/15/10 and 44/24 in the Games 5 and 7 Ws. That's enough to give him the edge for the PS for me and thus the overall mark.

Hakeem is 3 rather easily

4/5 is tough. Came down to Malone, Ewing, Robinson. I put Malone 6th. As mentioned it was a very off year by the Jazz standards, in fact their only non 50 win season from 89-01 which is amazing. As a result they drew the Sonics who had the best SRS in the league and promptly got bounced. This was a disappointing year for Malone from the Olympics on where he was expected to finally become an American star and the signature 2nd best guy on the team, but fell into the background while Barkley thrived

So Robinson or Ewing. Unsurprisingly to me at least, Robinson plays much better when the Spurs are a 49 win general underdog with little pressure, than in later years. But I'm giving this to Ewing who put up stats around the same as Robinson on a better team and historic defense, and played well in the PS.

Honorable mention to a guy who hasn't popped up in this thread yet but actually finished 5th in MVP voting: Dominique Wilkins. Easy to forget he was still a 30ppg scorer at this time. This is actually one of his best statistical years, putting up a career best .57 TS% and his 2nd best PER ever with 24.3. He had underrated longevity. I wonder how many players after 33 have dropped 29.9ppg+?
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#52 » by lorak » Sat Jun 5, 2010 6:55 am

kaima wrote:
What's bothersome, though, as regards this polling is that you won't stick to a standard other than overrating David Robinson.


My standards are clear.
In 1994 Robinson in RS was 5 pts (mysticbb’s points) better than Hakeem and 10 pts better than Malone. 5 pts difference is enough to be overcame by playoff performance, and that’s why Hakeem was above Robinson on my list. 10 points is too much and that’s why Malone was lower despite better post season.


Now, 1993, if, as I said, Malone would be 10 pts better than Robinson on mysticbb's list I will rank him higher than Robinson because Robinson’s better performance in playoffs wouldn’t be enough.

Besides, in 1994 Robinson had one of top 15 greatest regular seasons of ALL TIME. That’s also counts in this project. In 1993 Malone wasn’t so great and Robinson wasn’t far behind him. In fact they were equal because defense also counts, and Admiral defense overcame Malone's slightly advantage on offense. So we have two equal players in RS. You can’t ignore that. So it’s perfectly reasonable to break this tie by post season performance. That was not the case in 1994, because Robinson was much better on offense and also better on defense in RS.


PS
I’m not the only one who in 1994 rank Robinson higher than Malone and this year is doing the same. I guess we all biased?
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#53 » by mysticbb » Sat Jun 5, 2010 9:39 am

Stats for the 92-93 season:

Code: Select all

Rk Player             PER  WS   ON   SUM
1  Michael Jordan    29.9 21.8  7.9 59.6
2  Hakeem Olajuwon   27.1 18.3  5.8 51.2
3  Charles Barkley   25.4 19.1  5.2 49.7
4  Karl Malone       24.5 14.9  3.5 42.9
5  David Robinson    23.5 14.5  3.6 41.6
6  Brad Daugherty    21.3 13.3  5.0 39.7
7  Larry Nance       20.0 12.3  5.2 37.5
8  Patrick Ewing     21.1 12.4  3.8 37.3
9  Shawn Kemp        20.8 11.7  4.0 36.5
10 Reggie Miller     20.0 12.5  3.7 36.3
11 Derrick Coleman   22.1 11.7  2.4 36.1
12 Shaquille O'Neal  22.9 10.4  2.1 35.4
13 John Stockton     20.8 11.1  2.8 34.8
14 Dominique Wilkins 24.1 10.0 -0.2 33.9
15 Mark Price        19.9  8.6  3.0 31.4
16 Larry Johnson     18.8 11.3  1.3 31.4
17 Scottie Pippen    18.2  9.3  3.8 31.3
18 Detlef Schrempf   18.6 10.1  2.1 30.8
19 Alonzo Mourning   20.3  9.3  0.7 30.3
20 Clyde Drexler     20.8  7.0  2.4 30.1


As usual playoffs games are weighted 3 times as much as regular season games.

I didn't do much research for that season so far, thus I will just give out my "early" vote according to those stats with a small adjustment. Imho Malone had rather poor playoffs, but also played only in 5 games. I will switch him with David Robinson.

Vote:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem Oljauwon
3. Charles Barkley
4. David Robinson
5. Karl Malone
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#54 » by shawngoat23 » Sat Jun 5, 2010 5:29 pm

I'm not going to have much time to explain my reasoning for the next 5 weeks or so, to read other posts, or sometimes, even to cast my ballot. Feel free to drop me from the panel if you feel this would compromise my ability to cast good votes.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Patrick Ewing
5. Karl Malone
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#55 » by ronnymac2 » Sat Jun 5, 2010 6:36 pm

Real quick...

MJ, Charles, and Hakeem are top three for me. Charles distanced himself from Ewing, Robinson, and Malone this year because he just has ALL the tiebreakers working in his favor. I always flip-flop between who I think was better at their peak- Charles vs. Karl. Charles clearly wins out this year.

After that, the legit candidates I see are Robinson, Malone, and Ewing. This is a strong year for candidates imo. I don't see anybody else having an argument.

Payton was way too young. Kemp doesn't make the cut. Drexler had an off year and missed 33 games (would have been borderline anyway). No way is Stockton or Price close. Nique had a great year, but he isn't a player I'd ever take over Robinson, Ewing, or Malone. Same with Pippen. Shaq was just a rookie- he doesn't make the cut with so many strong candidates.
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#56 » by kaima » Sat Jun 5, 2010 7:09 pm

ElGee wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:Kaima

Houston-Seattle
Game 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMIGWwv- ... re=related

Bastillon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcSvf01p ... re=related
You will love this game if you haven't seen it.


Watching Sonics games is depressing. :nonono:


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1uC-jU1550&feature=channel[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHoAOWb1p4E&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMBp_5d9Ixk&feature=fvsr[/youtube]

The second video has a shocker, at least for me, in the off-handed talk about Seattle almost trading Kemp for Pippen in the summer after the Denver debacle.

Karl is not happy that it didn't go down. Pippen teamed with Payton in Karl's scheme would have been frightening. But Kemp was a very big part of their success, and his ability to create positives from his rotational and basket defense would have been very hard to replace.

The trapping and roaming inherent to Karl's defensive system would have been ideally matched with Pippen, and I've often gotten the feeling that Karl wanted both Gary and Shawn to be their positions' version of Pip on D.

The NBA could have ended up much different with that trade. I have as many questions about who the Bulls are, with or without MJ, after that as I do about the Sonics.
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#57 » by kaima » Sat Jun 5, 2010 7:18 pm

kaima wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:Kaima- I just watched the game. That is very true about Kemp's defense, but he certainly did not do more than Hakeem in this game, or even in this quarter.


I have watched the game in a similar fashion to Kemp's play: frenetically. I jumped around, trying to catch key runs rather than watching the whole thing.

Kemp didn't really get started until that quarter, and that's when the Sonics became serious or at least looked it. Kemp's problem is pacing, but when he gets on a run you'd better watch out.

There's a volatility that is/was lethal. Problem is how that played for not only the opposing team but also his own.

Kemp brings a sense of constant movement or at least the need for it in his play. Somewhat odd in a post player, but also rather exciting.

Underrated? Very likely. But also, even at his best, the sense that he's very raw.

When he gets the energy high the problem seems to become that he doesn't know how to tone it down. He just pushes pushes pushes, and that results in quick runs, but also foul trouble.

I don't think he was better than Olajuwon overall, but in some ways I think his will came to dictate large portions of the action. For parts of that third, that certainly included primacy over Olajuwon's side of it.

For the entire game? No.

Looking at this Sonics team, there's a real likability and cool to them. I really dig this team. Which is kind of ironic and sad, but there you go.

Keep in mind, I have yet to watch the fourth quarter or OT. I'll add more after I look at that.


Want to clarify about Kemp. I was in a hurry, still am, but I don't know if I was explicit enough in my description of his game in general or in that game.

In that game, Kemp seems out of the game for a huge amount of time mentally. A lot of hanging out.

Then he turns it for a five minute stretch in the third. The entire complexion and result of that game might have been decided in that period, and most of it was Kemp. But just as quickly as he rises, he then burns out. Sonic Boom.

In the fourth, he again looks to be largely low energy. The guy reminds me of a 6'10" male version of my ex-gf in basketball terms. A bit mental. Bipolar. He's like a depressive lead man from a grunge band -- epic lows and highs, together.
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#58 » by Baller 24 » Sat Jun 5, 2010 10:20 pm

Don't have time the next couple of days, so here's my ballot:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Hakeem Olajuwon
3) Charles Barkley
4) Patrick Ewing
5) Karl Malone

- If we're going by RS, I personally feel it could end in a three way tie, but with the playoffs and finals included, Jordan was just so damn dominant, can't put him any lower than first IMO.

- Olajuwon like I said earlier, put everything behind him, the contract, the trade demands, the organization calling him out on "fake" injuries, he put it all behind him, and with a brand new coach, worked with what he had, and played arguably the start of his best basketball ever.

-Barkley's impact and value to those Suns was very significant, injuries to the team and they still won 61 games, and like Doctor MJ stated, their overall offensive rating went up with Barkley and KJ injured. I think those are a solid first three, and after that is where it gets a little tricky.

- Ewing was fantastic, I said earlier, that was probably the Knicks defense at his very peak form, those 90s Knicks are arguably the best defensive and most physical team of the decade, Ewing anchored it very nicely, won 60 games, his numbers in the playoffs slightly went UP, was solid in the ECF. They could have had it, but a bunch of no-shows in Ewing's cast hurt him. Other than that though, overall solid and fine season, don't know how you can leave him off.

- Karl Malone was a 29/11 on 58% TS dominant moster during the RS, I personally feel he's better in the RS than Robinson, although he didn't advance, I think Malone faced a much harder opponent to begin with, and while Robinson dominated an injured team, he fell to the Suns. Not a good showing on Robinson's part in the playoffs too, while Malone wasn't that good either, this Sonics team was deadly defensively.
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#59 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jun 5, 2010 11:00 pm

kaima wrote:The guy reminds me of a 6'10" male version of my ex-gf in basketball terms.


You've got a way with words my friend.
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Re: Retro POY '92-93 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#60 » by kaima » Sat Jun 5, 2010 11:29 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
kaima wrote:The guy reminds me of a 6'10" male version of my ex-gf in basketball terms.


You've got a way with words my friend.


Thanks, but a large part of it is the simple tragedy of experience.

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