Retro POY '83-84 (Voting Complete)

[ronnymac2]

Damn. Look at my boy Alex English's numbers again this season. Might just set him right above Bird himself this time............


My contenders will be Bird, Magic, KAJ, Moses, Isiah, Erving, Dantley, King, English, Moncrief, and Ruland. Not really high-end outside of Bird this year. Bird and Magic are guarantees. The rest will battle it out.

If by any chance I don't get to finish by tomorrow's deadline: Bird/Magic/KAJ/Moses/King.....

[mysticbb]

Don't have time for a deeper analysis, just my vote:

1. Larry Bird
2. Magic Johnson
3. Sidney Moncrief
4. Adrian Dantley
5. Bernhard King

No idea, don't saw anything from King which would have told me he is better than Adrian Dantley. Picking King over Magic is like picking Anthony in this season over James for 2010.

[Doctor MJ]

You know guys you are picking Carmelo(king) over Magic. That is just not right.
You are talking about Man how played 12 postseason game and one that played 23 postseson game (and 7 against the great Boston team).

But hey dont have a vote.

p.s keep up the good work. This is fun read.(i dont always agree but that is just a good thing).

I missed this earlier. Melo is not King. He actually has some parts of his game that could be used to argue for him over King, but I'm sure you're talking about scoring, and Melo's just not nearly as impressive of a scorer. Melo's TS% was under 55 this year, and in '83-84 King was at about 62%. Now of course, just scoring a lot at great efficiency doesn't make you better than Magic, but I think the perception of Melo's scoring ability is kind of out of control if it's perceived to be at all King-like.

[Doctor MJ]

No idea, don't saw anything from King which would have told me he is better than Adrian Dantley. Picking King over Magic is like picking Anthony in this season over James for 2010.

Hmm, well first I'm not even sure how to process that analogy through my head. I'd guess you're making a statement about overreacting to playoff performance but 1) while James was way, way, WAY better than Melo in the regular season, Magic was not considered more valuable than King in the regular season, 2) while King's post-season really was remarkable compared to Magic's, James' was still clearly much more impressive than Melo in the post-season. (Or maybe a scorer vs all around player analogy, but that would be weird since LeBron's better even at scoring than Melo)

Also, the way you phrased your first sentence makes me feel the need to emphasize: You don't have to just go by what you yourself perceive, and I'd advise against it. The contemporaries are very clearly stating they thought King was much superior - why ignore that? Others have brought this up before - you don't have to agree with the contemporaries, but it's reckless not to make use of them.

Of course, if you're doing this, and have specific reasons why you think the contemporaries are off, that is a good reason to disagree with them.

[Gongxi]

So you know where I'm coming from, I started this thread with this, literally the note to myself I wrote on a Word document a couple weeks ago, when I had more time:

83-84

1- Larry Bird
2- Magic Johnson
3- Adrian Dantley
4- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5- Moses Malone

Dr. J is ever so close here, as is Bernard King, but I can't put them over KAJ or Moses when they're clogging up the paint and getting rebounds. Malone would inch over KAJ, but didn't play enough.

The fact of the matter is I overlooked the minutes King played and if ElGee didn't point it out, I probably would've kept on skating. The Shaq year he compared King to was somewhat fresh in my mind (especially compared to this season we're talking about here, which...I never saw, and if I did I was too young for kindergarten)- I knew that Shaq had performed in limited minutes when I actually saw it transpire. King? Didn't know, wasn't looking for it. Something to keep in mind for seasons going forward.

That said, I still feel like King and Shaq aren't great comparisons for the reasons I stated in my response to him (ElGee). So, in light of what I've read...my new rankings:

1- Larry Bird. I don't think much discussion is necessary, I haven't seen anyone with any other vote.

2- Magic Johnson. Tragic? Sure, it was a bad stretch, everyone has one. I'm not going to let that sample size overrule the rest of the season, though, and it's not like this is a particularly strong year anyway.

3- Adrian Dantley. I still don't see the reasoning for placing King over him. King had a better playoffs, yes, but Dantley's wasn't bad at all and in fact very good. The MVP voting doesn't really concern me for reasons Warspite mentioned: this is well before every team having coverage, well before the NBC games of the week, way before ESPN's several national games a week, and like 20 years before League Pass. In that situation, a guy in New York getting more MVP consideration than a guy in Salt Lake City? Not really very important to me.

4- Bernard King. As I mentioned, I simply overlooked his mpg. Mea culpa. Nothing I can say here that hasn't been said.

5- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. So I was ready to explain why I have KAJ here instead of Moses, but, as mentioned in my rough draft, it really just comes down to games played. Malone played 71. KAJ played 80. Their games aren't that similar other than scoring (KAJ played much better defense, Malone rebounded the ball much better), but close enough to merit these 9 games to be the difference. It's over 10% of the regular season.

HM: Moses and only Moses, to recognize how close he was to being 5th and how he initially was.

[An Unbiased Fan]

1) Bird
2) Magic
3) King
4) Moncrief
5) Dantley

HM: KAJ, Isiah

[semi-sentient]

Alright, I've updated my rankings. Magic moves up just ahead of King, and Dantley replaces Isiah in the top 5.

[Optimism Prime]

1. Larry Bird
2. Magic Johnson
3. Moses Malone
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Isiah Thomas

Magic at number two? Yes. Tragic Johnson or no, this was still a great year for him overall. 17-7-13-2, on a better TS% than the rest? Yeah, that's pretty solid.

Moses above Kareem? Again, yes. A 20% chance of pulling down a rebound in 71 games means more to me than a 12.7% chance of getting a board in 80. Scoring numbers were about even, though Kareem had the edge in efficiency. This is close, but Moses barely edges him out.

HM: Dantley/English/King - I can't pick just one high-volume wing scorer! HM for you all.

Super special HM, gold star with a bullet: Jeff Ruland. TrueLAfan, thanks for posting about him. I wish I could slide him in this year, especially given what happened after this year (big fat career ending injuries)... but he'll have to be happy with being my first ever SSHMGSWAB.

[drza]

These votes are starting to get ridiculously hard as the memory fades and the amount of information available dries up. These are my personal impressions:

1) Bird and Magic are still the top 2 to me, fairly easily. I think the "Tragic" sequence of events are overblown, as he was still impacting the game on a huge, fundamental basis and was at that point the engine behind the team.

2) The player caliber/quality seems to be much lower in this period than it has been at other times. We so often speak of the 80s as a Golden Age, but I think it worth noting that the NBA was at a nadir before Magic/Bird came in for the '80 season and that the big infusion of talent didn't arrive until the '85 rookie class. As such, it isn't shocking to me that we're seeing guys who aren't considered among history's finest as definite top-5 guys this season

3) King and Dantley. Both are examples of the type of player that just don't impress me that much as far as super-elite guys go. Both (especially that season) were ridiculous scorers, but didn't really do a lot else to impact the game. They were indifferent defenders, not that great as passers, and didn't seem to possess much in the way of intangibles. For those making the Carmelo comparisons, I think that is where they're coming from...not that Melo is exactly like those guys in production, but that they are on a similar continuum as far as what they could contribute to the court.

4) Zeke, Kareem, Dr. J, and Moses were all players that I would have thought were better at the time. My memories/analysis at the time were obviously not strong then because I was very young, but even 26 years later I don't know that the numbers/results available from that season really suffice to change my opinion.

5) I have no idea what to do with Sidney Moncrief here. In the previous year's vote I didn't vote for him because I just didn't think he was as good as the guys I voted over him. This is a somewhat down year, though, so this could be the place to recognize him.

It almost feels weird to vote, because I don't have much in the way of strong convictions for this year. But today is vote day, so barring further arguments that sway me I'll go with this:

1) Bird
2) Magic
3) Sidney Moncrief
4) Moses Malone
5) Isiah Thomas

[JordansBulls]

I don't understand how people can't have Bernard king top 3 this year. I mean he was responsible for upsetting the Pistons and it was the only time Isiah lost a series with HCA in the NBA. Also he took Bird's Celtics 7 games with a much inferior team.

[Optimism Prime]

Also, I feel obligated to say this is the last season I was alive for. Born in September '83.

[TrueLAfan]

Adrian Dantley... I wouldn't vote for him in the top 5. I wouldn't vote for him in the top 15. Ever. He did less to help teams win than any almost player I've ever seen. Much of this is a repost from a few months ago, but still.

Dantley is a case study in why statistical analysis is often faulty. He had a good midrange jumper and, somehow, got the ball down low in good scoring position. He shot a very high percentage, and went to the line a ton and converted at a high rate. For most of his career, he was a good rebounder, and averaged between 3.5 and 4 assists a game in his peak years. PER will tell you that he was one of the top players of the 80s…among players that played more than 350 games in that decade, he ranks sixth…ahead of Julius Erving, Kareem, Nique, Gervin, Drexler, English, McHale, Parish, Stockton, and Moncrief, among others. On paper, he is an elite paper.

On the court, he was a guy that couldn’t get his number retired by the Jazz—the team where he put up his best numbers--for two decades. He functioned solely as a primary option, holding the ball when he shouldn’t and disrupting any offensive scheme. He averaged 28-30 points a game for the Jazz between 80 and 82, and the team couldn’t get to 30 wins. When he was injured in 1983, the team added John Drew for 44 games, which meant that between them Dantley and Drew played 2000 minutes. The team improved by five wins from the previous season.

Good teams that had Dantley didn’t want him. Buffalo drafted him and Dantley averaged 20 a game as a rookie. They traded him to LA. The Lakers had Dantley right before they drafted Magic, and traded him. He couldn't get along with Kareem and Jamaal...two Wooden products, not exactly noted for selfishness. Utah was miserable with him for half a decade. When they got a good coach (Frank Layden) and got better—they traded him. The Pistons saw he wasn’t a good fit and traded him. He put up good numbers that had little effect on his team. He could still play in his early and mid 30s, but the fact is that nobody wanted him.

I know, I know. People will point at PER and TS% and talk about efficiency. Great. Knock yourselves out. Dantley played on good teams (Lakers, Detroit) that could not wait to be rid of him. He played on bad teams, and they stayed bad. Coaches hated him. Teammates hated him. He didn't help his teams. And when you are talking about the MVP, that is the least valuable thing imaginable.

[semi-sentient]

OK, more good points. It's really tough judging a player that I didn't really watch, but I'll have to take everyone's word for it. I had moved Dantley in my top 5 in favor of Isiah, but I'm going to go ahead and reverse that decision.

[sp6r=underrated]

On Dantley, I think True and DoctorMJ have made a pretty convincing case, that he is less than his numbers suggest. I'm sure twenty years from now people will be coming out of the woodwork to suggest Amare was better than Nash.

I agree with Drza that we entered into a transition zone for great individual performances (I think we got there around 85), not quite as strong as other time periods.

Also for an era that is remembered for dominant teams, 1984 is an outlier. Things were very bunched up. The best teams this year did not separate themselves from the pack, the way they do in normal seasons.

1. Bird: fairly easy.
2. King: dynamic offensive force, great job leading the knicks in the RS, and overall excellent PS
3. Magic: From what I've read and the limited games I've watched Magic was in the transition phase to an all time great. 1986 is when he really broke out in full force.
4. Isiah: I went back and forth with him and Magic. Isiah deserves major credit for his all around offensive impact. This was his finest season.
5. Moncrief: monster defender, good PS

HM
Moses, KAJ

[CellarDoor]

I'm struggling a lot with King. This vote is very subject to change, but here goes:

1. Bird--It's amazing how much that finals series changes perception. I wonder how fierce the debate over #1 would be if the Lakers hadn't faltered.
2. Magic--A bad series aside, I can't see an argument for anyone above him.
3. Isaiah--Terrific season. I don't see an argument for anyone except the next guy to encroach on him.
4. Moncrief--I'm a sucker for defense and motors. Squid might have had the best of both this season. He also had a pretty solid post season for once.
5. Kareem--He's starting to decline here a bit, but it was a very nice season, and no one else really stands out to me.

HM: SF scoring trio.

[Sedale Threatt]

1. Bird
2. Magic
3. King
4. Kareem
5. Isiah

[Dr Positivity]

1. Bird - MVP, Finals MVP, clear best player. Easy choice here.

2. King
3. Magic

Very close, I used their playoff performances to break it. King was pretty epic and Magic got a lot of heat after those Finals for some choke-like plays

After that is a bunch of guys with similiarish cases like Moncrief, Isiah, Dantley, Kareem, Moses, Dr. J. So to break it I'm going to use the ol "If I had the 4th pick in a draft where all I know is the player I pick, and my goal is to eventually win a title that year once the other pieces fill in, who do I pick?" dealbreaker.

I'm leaving off Moses because of the GP and his mediocore playoffs. Erving also had a weak postseason. Still don't know how a team of Moses, Dr. J, Andrew Toney, Maurice Cheeks, Bobby Jones who had just come off a GOAT worthy season, lost in the 1st round to the Nets. I'm guessing they had a bit of year after syndrome

Dantley's history of being a malcontent and getting traded so much indicates he's not the type I want leading my team

So that leaves Kareem, Isiah, Moncrief. I think I take Isiah first of those guys. Young, fresh 21/11 PG, plays good d, puts my offense in good hands and is easy to build around. After that I go with Moncrief with his MP advantage and again, young legs over old ones.

1. Bird
2. King
3. Magic
4. Isiah
5. Moncrief

[Gongxi]

Adrian Dantley... I wouldn't vote for him in the top 5. I wouldn't vote for him in the top 15. Ever. He did less to help teams win than any almost player I've ever seen. Much of this is a repost from a few months ago, but still.

Dantley is a case study in why statistical analysis is often faulty. He had a good midrange jumper and, somehow, got the ball down low in good scoring position. He shot a very high percentage, and went to the line a ton and converted at a high rate. For most of his career, he was a good rebounder, and averaged between 3.5 and 4 assists a game in his peak years. PER will tell you that he was one of the top players of the 80s…among players that played more than 350 games in that decade, he ranks sixth…ahead of Julius Erving, Kareem, Nique, Gervin, Drexler, English, McHale, Parish, Stockton, and Moncrief, among others. On paper, he is an elite paper.

On the court, he was a guy that couldn’t get his number retired by the Jazz—the team where he put up his best numbers--for two decades. He functioned solely as a primary option, holding the ball when he shouldn’t and disrupting any offensive scheme. He averaged 28-30 points a game for the Jazz between 80 and 82, and the team couldn’t get to 30 wins. When he was injured in 1983, the team added John Drew for 44 games, which meant that between them Dantley and Drew played 2000 minutes. The team improved by five wins from the previous season.

Good teams that had Dantley didn’t want him. Buffalo drafted him and Dantley averaged 20 a game as a rookie. They traded him to LA. The Lakers had Dantley right before they drafted Magic, and traded him. He couldn't get along with Kareem and Jamaal...two Wooden products, not exactly noted for selfishness. Utah was miserable with him for half a decade. When they got a good coach (Frank Layden) and got better—they traded him. The Pistons saw he wasn’t a good fit and traded him. He put up good numbers that had little effect on his team. He could still play in his early and mid 30s, but the fact is that nobody wanted him.

I know, I know. People will point at PER and TS% and talk about efficiency. Great. Knock yourselves out. Dantley played on good teams (Lakers, Detroit) that could not wait to be rid of him. He played on bad teams, and they stayed bad. Coaches hated him. Teammates hated him. He didn't help his teams. And when you are talking about the MVP, that is the least valuable thing imaginable.

That's great on a macroscopic level, but we're talking about just one year here. And in this one bad year, I can't figure out how people have King somewhere high and Dantley nowhere to be found, considering how he was actually just about totally comparable.

I don't see why we need this year to be a referendum on his entire career. If we are, I have to wonder about Ruland.

[sp6r=underrated]

I'm struggling a lot with King. This vote is very subject to change, but here goes:

1. Bird--It's amazing how much that finals series changes perception. I wonder how fierce the debate over #1 would be if the Lakers hadn't faltered.
2. Magic--A bad series aside, I can't see an argument for anyone above him.
3. Isaiah--Terrific season. I don't see an argument for anyone except the next guy to encroach on him.
4. Moncrief--I'm a sucker for defense and motors. Squid might have had the best of both this season. He also had a pretty solid post season for once.
5. Kareem--He's starting to decline here a bit, but it was a very nice season, and no one else really stands out to me.

HM: SF scoring trio.

Who were the three members of the SF trio?

[drza]

I'm struggling a lot with King. This vote is very subject to change, but here goes:

1. Bird--It's amazing how much that finals series changes perception. I wonder how fierce the debate over #1 would be if the Lakers hadn't faltered.
2. Magic--A bad series aside, I can't see an argument for anyone above him.
3. Isaiah--Terrific season. I don't see an argument for anyone except the next guy to encroach on him.
4. Moncrief--I'm a sucker for defense and motors. Squid might have had the best of both this season. He also had a pretty solid post season for once.
5. Kareem--He's starting to decline here a bit, but it was a very nice season, and no one else really stands out to me.

HM: SF scoring trio.

Who were the three members of the SF trio?

You didn't ask me, so I apologize for the presumption, but I'm assuming King, Dantley and English.