Retro POY '73-74 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

'73-74 Results

Code: Select all

Player                1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 15   1   0   0   0 157   0.981
2. Julius Erving        1  15   6   0   0 115   0.719
3. Bob Lanier           0   0   8   5   0  55   0.344
4. Bob McAdoo           0   0   7   5   3  53   0.331
5. Rick Barry           0   0   0   2   4  10   0.063
6. Walt Frazier         0   0   0   1   6   9   0.056
7. Dave Cowens          0   0   0   2   1   7   0.044
   John Havlicek        0   0   1   0   2   7   0.044
9. Artis Gilmore        0   0   0   1   0   3   0.019


[JordansBulls]

Huh, so far Kareem has all but one first place vote this year.

I decline to comment further; just pointing that out.

And like I said from the get go. You win League MVP and the title the same year you get the #1 spot.

1961 Bill Russell
1962 Bill Russell
1963 Bill Russell
1965 Bill Russell
1967 Wilt Chamberlain
1970 Willis Reed
1971 Kareem
1974 Julius Erving (ABA)
1976 Julius Erving (ABA)
1980 Kareem
1983 Moses Malone
1984 Larry Bird
1986 Larry Bird
1987 Magic Johnson
1991 Michael Jordan
1992 Michael Jordan
1994 Hakeem Olajuwon
1996 Michael Jordan
1998 Michael Jordan
2000 Shaquille O'neal
2003 Tim Duncan


I'd like to point out that Dr J didn't get all the votes in 1976 either despite it being his best season ever.

[Optimism Prime]

Huh, so far Kareem has all but one first place vote this year.

I decline to comment further; just pointing that out.

And like I said from the get go. You win League MVP and the title the same year you get the #1 spot.

I'd like to point out that Dr J didn't get all the votes in 1976 either despite it being his best season ever.

Okay, so hypothetically:
1. Game 7 was reffed by someone besides Richie Powers; Bucks win.
2. Kareem and Erving both win MVP and title.

Who's your number 1 in this scenario?

Also--care to comment on the fact that the Bucks lost every Finals game reffed by Powers? What's Kareem supposed to do when it's 8 on 5 and he's got no other all-stars? 33-12-5-2 isn't enough; what's the tipping point to overcome an unpreventable defeat? If he'd put up 40-18-7-4 and they still lost, what would you have to say about that?

[JordansBulls]

Huh, so far Kareem has all but one first place vote this year.

I decline to comment further; just pointing that out.

And like I said from the get go. You win League MVP and the title the same year you get the #1 spot.

I'd like to point out that Dr J didn't get all the votes in 1976 either despite it being his best season ever.

Okay, so hypothetically:
1. Game 7 was reffed by someone besides Richie Powers; Bucks win.
2. Kareem and Erving both win MVP and title.

Who's your number 1 in this scenario?

Also--care to comment on the fact that the Bucks lost every Finals game reffed by Powers? What's Kareem supposed to do when it's 8 on 5 and he's got no other all-stars? 33-12-5-2 isn't enough; what's the tipping point to overcome an unpreventable defeat? If he'd put up 40-18-7-4 and they still lost, what would you have to say about that?

If the Bucks win game 7 @ home of the NBA Finals, Kareem is #1. He would have the title and an extra accolade over Dr J.

[Jimmy76]

If the Bucks win game 7 @ home of the NBA Finals, Kareem is #1. He would have the title and an extra accolade over Dr J.

you didnt address the more interesting and important of the two questions

[semi-sentient]

Site updated: www.dolem.com/poy

Kareem moves to the #3 spot as expected, and he'll be passing up Magic after the next round of voting is complete. As for Dr J, he moves past Kobe, Hakeem, and Malone for the #7 spot. He's also sneaking up on Shaq and could potentially pass him up depending on how the voting goes (only 1.095 behind) over the next two seasons. Kareem is definitely passing Jordan. He's only 2.9 behind, and he's going to win at least 2 more times.

Code: Select all

1.  Michael Jordan        9.578
2.  Magic Johnson         7.114
3.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar   6.695
4.  Tim Duncan            6.153
5.  Larry Bird            6.147
6.  Shaquille O'Neal      5.910
7.  Julius Erving         4.815
8.  Karl Malone           4.649
9.  Hakeem Olajuwon       4.380
10. Kobe Bryant           4.326
11. Moses Malone          3.478
12. Kevin Garnett         3.388
13. LeBron James          3.083
14. David Robinson        2.431
15. Dwyane Wade           2.179

[Dr Positivity]

I don't have a problem with Erving getting a 1st place vote this year. I have him and Kareem as a virtual tie.

[JordansBulls]

If the Bucks win game 7 @ home of the NBA Finals, Kareem is #1. He would have the title and an extra accolade over Dr J.

you didnt address the more interesting and important of the two questions

They lost by 15 points.
I could say the same about LA vs Sacramento in 2002 in Game 6 as well. If they had better refs the Kings would have won.
Or in 2010 between LA and Boston in Game 7 as the Lakers were like undefeated when Joey Crawford reffed.

Big deal.

And about the 1974 Finals, I'm not going to get into what I believe you are hinting at.
(Cowens, Havlicek) or (Kareem and Oscar) that is a separate issue that doesn't even deal with basektball.

[Dr Positivity]

McAdoo put up a pretty good number. Should be good for top 30

[Doctor MJ]

I don't have a problem with Erving getting a 1st place vote this year. I have him and Kareem as a virtual tie.

I would agree. Kareem's my choice, but it's not that crazy to pick Erving.

[Doctor MJ]

Am I the only one who's surprised at how well Dr. J is doing in this? I mean, I expected him to do well...but not this well. And, despite my mistake about the blocks/steals, I'm sticking with the premise. I think Dr. J was a very good to outstanding defenive player for most of his career, and was really great this year on that end.

The trend I'm seeing is that established stars that have explainable dips in the middle of their prime get cut some slack in this project over guys who aren't as well known and have short peaks. So I think that is where Erving's shares are arguably getting inflated. I do think they're inflated, but it's a pretty mild inflation.

The bigger factor, is just the ABA getting its due, which I wasn't sure if it would or not given that some people tend to dismiss the ABA. I'm quite happy with how the inter-association debate has gone at this point.

Re: Erving's defense. Agree with you. To me Erving's just one more case of how defensive accolades can have huge blindspots. Erving was considered to be offense personified, even in the ABA, so people didn't give him defensive love. Anyone racking up blocks & steals on extremely successful defenses though is clearly doing something quite valuable.

[Dr Positivity]

Erving's number doesn't surprise me. If you're the 2nd best player of your era, which Erving clearly is, you should get a pretty high number. If the top 10 had 2 from every decade, which looks to be almost exactly the case, then Erving should be top 10 (but Mikan's #1 of the 50s might push him out) Erving also completley owned the 74 and 76 seasons in the ABA. When you super dominant Shaq 00 type years like that, it gives you the points in a hurry.

I think however, he's going to end up a lot higher than West and Oscar than people would've expected. The main reason is that I think West and Oscar will almost always be picking at the #3 and #4 spots with Russ and Wilt dominating and it'll be tough to get ahead without those big .700+ years. I'm guessing Oscar's ranking ends up the big shocker of this project compared to his top 100 placing, w/ his missed playoff years, and in general a lot of mediocore teams despite having all-star help. Not sure if he deserves higher anyways. His stats are legendary, but when you're the #4 player of your era, how high do you deserve to go, no matter what era it is. Does Oscar deserve a higher ranking as the 4th wheel of the 60s than Karl Malone and Hakeem do as the 2a and 2b of the 90s? If we're judging players by how they performed relative to era, then Oscar should be closer to Barkley and David Robinson than Shaq, which is what I think will happen

[Optimism Prime]

If the Bucks win game 7 @ home of the NBA Finals, Kareem is #1. He would have the title and an extra accolade over Dr J.

you didnt address the more interesting and important of the two questions

They lost by 15 points.
I could say the same about LA vs Sacramento in 2002 in Game 6 as well. If they had better refs the Kings would have won.
Or in 2010 between LA and Boston in Game 7 as the Lakers were like undefeated when Joey Crawford reffed.

Big deal.

And about the 1974 Finals, I'm not going to get into what I believe you are hinting at.
(Cowens, Havlicek) or (Kareem and Oscar) that is a separate issue that doesn't even deal with basektball.

I'm just saying--as others have said before--it seems as if you have a clear bias against Kareem. Whether you do or not, that's the perception.

Here's your voting record, compared to the project results:

Year-JB-RPOY
74-2-1
75-UR-5
76-4-2
77-3-1
78-4-1
79-3-1
80-1-1
81-4-4
82-UR-5
83-UR-6
84-UR-6
85-5-3

So... with the exceptions of '80, '83, and '84, you've consistently voted Kareem below the project norm. I'm not saying "FALL IN LINE," because differing viewpoints are part of what make this project so interesting, but I'm just saying: this looks fishy.

And, while you get on Manuel Calavera's case for coming in near the end of voting and listing his numbers and that's it, keep in mind that you also post your ballot almost as soon as voting is opened, and that's it. If you've already gone through and ranked everyone, that's fine and I commend your effort, but... everyone in this project is here to learn, and I've seen a ton of ballots change after discussion. I don't have the time to go through and read each post--and I'm not making this point to attack you but asking sincerely--how often have you listened to what other posters have said and changed your votes? If you have on a recurring basis, I apologize; it just seems like you have a tendency to rigidly stick to your rubric and not listen to anyone else.

JB, again, I'm not attacking you on this, just trying to get you to understand the way it looks to me. Dr. MJ, apologies if this counts as "derailing the thread;" that's not at all what I'm trying to do.

[JordansBulls]

Kareem is one of my favorite centers of all time. It just seems that the voting changed all of a sudden when it came to him. If any other star was losing in round 1 or not making the playoffs or losing with the better record they would have been getting blazed for not doing better. Remember this is the 70's when the league was split and for him not to do more and win more when you had 1 man teams winning titles or teams that win in the mid 40's taking titles speaks volumes.

And you are right the project is to learn from one another, but if you come in and all you do is list 5 names in every thread, then what is the purpose, any one can do that. It is basically like you are accepting whomever else before you wrote vs digging into analyzing the situation.
And just so you know, I got Kareem down for 2 more #1.

I just find it interesting that once it got to Kareem if he lost in the 1st round or didn't make the playoffs it was ok to put him #1 all the time when that wasn't happening with anyone else in the project. 1981 for example, 1978, 1976 (3 votes over Dr J in his greatest season).
Even "penbeast0" in one of his comments mentioned it seemed like some posters where being biased with Kareem saying he was getting the top spot because of stats. That is why it is going to be interesting to see if the same posters are voting Wilt #1 over Russell or not even if Russell is winning while Wilt was not.

[penbeast0]

Even "penbeast0" in one of his comments mentioned it seemed like some posters where being biased with Kareem saying he was getting the top spot because of stats. That is why it is going to be interesting to see if the same posters are voting Wilt #1 over Russell or not even if Russell is winning while Wilt was not.

EVEN "penbeast0" -- I'm a Kareem homer now? lol And it was because of name recognition, not just stats since he was getting votes over guys like Gilmore, Erving, and McAdoo who had stats that were just as flashy plus team success.