Retro POY '70-71 (Voting Complete)

[ronnymac2]

Time to officially retire Willie Wise and Pete Maravich honorable mentions. Pistol's rookie year and Wise, though awesome, isn't in his prime anymore.

I honestly don't like anybody from the ABA this year. Not over the NBA stars. I'm considering peak Hondo as a borderline top five player this year, and I'll take him over anybody else from the ABA, so....

First year Reed is legit, but he had a poor playoffs, likely due to that shoulder injury. I respect his game 7 (48 minutes, 24 and 12). Obviously Frazier is in the running. It's a joke that he wasn't top five in MVP voting.

Monroe and Unseld led the Bullets. I think Wes had an amazing year, capping it off with a fantastic playoff series against the Knicks (who could go small-ball, which has given C's problems in the past), and a valiant effort against the best player in the league. He dropped a triple-double in the final game.

Hayes doesn't get enough juice this year. Neither does Bing.

We're entering a three-year stretch for Billy Cunningham where he was an all-nba first team forward. He was the constant for three years. Legends like Elgin Baylor, John Havlicek, and Connie Hawkins (who btw, is one of the most talented forwards I've ever seen) came and went on the all-nba team those three years, but Billy stayed.

I really think this guy deserves some major consideration this year. ElGee posted those articles above, and though it doesn't say much about him, it does say he dropped 65 and 36 in games 5 and 6 against the Bullets. His averages for that seven game playoff series were 26/15/6 on 47% shooting with 10 fta's per game.

Anybody know anything else about that series?

I made a mistake. Rick Barry in the running. Dude dropped 29/7/5 in the REG SEA. Then in the playoffs, he dropped 34/12/4, and hit 14 out of 27 3's in six games. He hit a record eight in one game I believe.

It sucks that West won't get a spot just because of that injury. Wilt is a contender. Kareem and Oscar are as well. Thurmond had an awful playoffs, though he WAS facing Jabbar and a GOAT team.

Contenders: KAJ, Wilt, Oscar, Barry, Cunningham, Hondo, Frazier.

Unseld, Reed, and West (just because) are guaranteed HM's.

[ElGee]

I'd also like to hear more about Billy Cunningham. I feel like I've seen a number of his old games (whatever is available on youtube from late 60s/early 70s) and he's never really jumped out at me.

Strikes me as someone who played extremely hard, was extremely physical, like every lefty took advantage of his southpawedness, rebounded hard and had a good shot. What's the older generation thoughts on him?

I'm also going to make a strong case for Dave Bing. I've only seen him play a little (there's a great game from his rookie season on youtube) but he strikes me as tremendously skilled on offense. He could pass quite well, was fast, move with the dribble in a variety of ways, and score pretty efficiently in a number of ways too. As True said, doesn't look like a good defender, although that's not the end of the world for a guard.

This year, he's essentially the second most prolific offensive weapon in the league. I look at that roster with rookie Lanier, Jimmy Walker (don't have a feel for him as a player) and good ole Terry Dischinger and don't exactly think that should be a really good offensive team. Yet only the Bucks (104.1), the Lakers (100.6) Chicago (100.3) and Seattle (98.6) had better offenses by my estimation than Detroit (98.0).

And this was sort of Bing's Tracy McGrady year -- 3rd in MVP voting and 1st team All-NBA...

[fatal9]

1. Kareem
2. Havlicek
3. Frazier
4. West
5. Wilt

HM: Oscar, Reed, Billy C, Unseld

[penbeast0]

I'd also like to hear more about Billy Cunningham. I feel like I've seen a number of his old games (whatever is available on youtube from late 60s/early 70s) and he's never really jumped out at me.

Strikes me as someone who played extremely hard, was extremely physical, like every lefty took advantage of his southpawedness, rebounded hard and had a good shot. What's the older generation thoughts on him?

I'm also going to make a strong case for Dave Bing. I've only seen him play a little (there's a great game from his rookie season on youtube) but he strikes me as tremendously skilled on offense. He could pass quite well, was fast, move with the dribble in a variety of ways, and score pretty efficiently in a number of ways too. As True said, doesn't look like a good defender, although that's not the end of the world for a guard.

This year, he's essentially the second most prolific offensive weapon in the league. I look at that roster with rookie Lanier, Jimmy Walker (don't have a feel for him as a player) and good ole Terry Dischinger and don't exactly think that should be a really good offensive team. Yet only the Bucks (104.1), the Lakers (100.6) Chicago (100.3) and Seattle (98.6) had better offenses by my estimation than Detroit (98.0).

And this was sort of Bing's Tracy McGrady year -- 3rd in MVP voting and 1st team All-NBA...

Dischinger and Walker were offensive minded players as I remember. Walker had been a big college star and had a flashy undisciplined game; sort of Pete Maravich lite. Otto Moore, who split time with Lanier, and Komives, the 3rd guard, were the defensive stoppers plus they had sort of a PF by committee. Bing did have a terrific year offensively but it's their defense this year that's the surprise, sort of like 74.

[lorak]

1. KAJ
2. Big O
3. Wilt
4. Frazier
5. West

[shawngoat23]

EDIT: Please note that I'm changing my ballot:

1. Lew Alcindor
2. Walt Frazier
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Jerry West
5. John Havlicek
HM: Oscar Robertson, Billy Cunningham

Explanations given in later post.

Original post follows below

I probably won't have much time to get this up tomorrow morning, so here's a hastily compiled list. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar definitely is NOT #1 on my list though...

1. Lew Alcindor

(because I'm awesome like that; haven't had a choice so easy since 1983 or 1986, and this is arguably even more of a no-brainer)

2. Walt Frazier
3. Jerry West
4. John Havlicek
5. Billy Cunningham
HM: Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain

I thought that West was the second best player this year, but I had to dock him for missing 13 games and the entire postseason. That's enough to put Frazier on top, with Clyde masterfully leading the Knicks to the second-best record in the league. Havlicek gets a nod for putting up big numbers on a rebuilding Celtic squad which has not yet found their mid-70s identity yet. Billy Cunningham gets some love for me because he was very productive, as evidenced by his statistics and his All-First nomination, as well as the fact that these Sixers two years later were a sad bunch without him.

[ThaRegul8r]

I probably won't have much time to get this up tomorrow morning, so here's a hastily compiled list. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar definitely is NOT #1 on my list though...

1. Lew Alcindor

[TrueLAfan]

Final Vote:

1. Kareem
2. Frazier
3. West
4. Havlicek
5. Wilt

Putr WIlt over Oscar because, well, I think Wilt was a better player.

Comment about West. I also docked him a slot for missing over a dozen games. But we are talking about a guy who played over 2800 minutes anyway during the RS. I think missing the PS hurt him more than anything; if he had played then, he would have gone #2 for me.

[semi-sentient]

1) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2) Walt Frazier
3) Wilt Chamberlain
4) Billy Cunningham
5) Oscar Robertson

#1 was as easy as it gets. Kareem was dominant from start to finish and accomplished about as much as a player can.

Walt was amazing as well, and as usual, consistent from start to finish.

Wilt gets the nod above both Havlicek and West because he played a full season.

I initially had Havlicek and West in my top 5, but missing the playoffs definitely hurts them this year. West might very well have been the 2nd best player this year, but he missed 13 regular season games and the entire playoffs. Havlicek, while fantastic, also missed the playoffs. That said, I like what I've read about Cunningham and especially Robertson. I think it's clear that he was a huge part of the Bucks success so I'm going to give him the final spot.

[ronnymac2]

Kareem is really an easy number one. Nobody is screaming out "I deserve the next spot!" though. Wilt was an efficient 20/18/4 player with elite defense who was good but not amazing in the playoffs. I AM a bit skeptical of Barry's ABA numbers, though the quality of the player is there imo. I think Oscar is like 2008 Kevin Garnett. Hondo was awesome but doesn't have tiebreakers going for him at all really. Cunningham and Frazier don't have black marks, but they aren't super dominant either.

Best player is: Wilt, Frazier/Oscar/Barry, Cunningham/Hondo...

Best year tiebreakers: Frazier/Oscar, Barry, Cunningham, Hondo

Now....can Oscar/Frazier catch up to Wilt? Can Cunningham catch up to Barry?

I'm actually going with Chamberlain second. I think if you give him what you gave Oscar, which is the best player on the planet, you'd have a title. He had West, and I know they may have underacheived in the REG SEA, but the team doesn't look like they are constructed too well, and they were missing Elgin Baylor for basically the whole season. Wilt never got his chance to play in the post-season with the second best player in the league in the Logo, and he still got his team past the first round.

I'll put Oscar ahead of Frazier. Oscar was fantastic in the finals and had an 08-KG type of season where he says "Imagine if I had KAJ in my peak instead of in my latter-prime!" Frazier was amazing though, too.

Cunningham vs. Barry for the fifth spot. I'm taking Billy. These guys had remarkably similar years.

Final Rankings:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Walt Frazier
Billy Cunningham

Super HM: Rick Barry

HM: West, Hondo, Reed, Unseld

I had Barry ahead of Billy, but I'm going to defer to others who are giving Cunningham some props now. They truly are neck and neck.

[Optimism Prime]

1. Lew Alcindor
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Walt Frazier
4. Jerry West
5. Oscar Robertson

HM: Havlicek

[Sedale Threatt]

1. Alcindor
2. Chamberlain
3. Frazier
4. Havlicek
5. Robertson

[shawngoat23]

Three straight votes with Wilt at #2. I may need to revisit my leaving him entirely off the top 5. Any chance you could count up the votes later this evening, Doctor MJ?

[Doctor MJ]

Three straight votes with Wilt at #2. I may need to revisit my leaving him entirely off the top 5. Any chance you could count up the votes later this evening, Doctor MJ?

Eh, okay.

Not going to make this a regular thing, but we'll extend to this evening this thread.

[JordansBulls]

Three straight votes with Wilt at #2. I may need to revisit my leaving him entirely off the top 5. Any chance you could count up the votes later this evening, Doctor MJ?

It's either Wilt or West for me here and I went with West, greater impact even playing less games. Not going to put two guys in the top 5 on a team that won less than 50 games and that didn't win it all.

[semi-sentient]

How can West have had a greater impact overall if he missed the playoffs? That's kind of a big deal I think. The Lakers still managed to get by with Gail Goodrich and reach the WCF. Maybe West can be considered the guy that gets them over the top (I know how that sounds), but the Lakers weren't exactly disabled without him. I don't want to underrate him though because he was fantastic when he played, but for him to get ranked that high when he wasn't able to produce when it mattered seems a bit much.

[Sedale Threatt]

Yeah, I haven't been dishing out much punishment for missing games, but when you don't play in the playoffs, that's pretty tough to overlook. I don't know, I'm guessing here, but maybe that's why the Lakers didn't win it all?

[Doctor MJ]

Yeah, I haven't been dishing out much punishment for missing games, but when you don't play in the playoffs, that's pretty tough to overlook. I don't know, I'm guessing here, but maybe that's why the Lakers didn't win it all?

Honestly, this Buck team was one of the greatest ever, and the Lakers didn't become fantastic until Sharman came in the next year.

[Doctor MJ]

My vote:

1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Oscar
4. Frazier
5. West

Kareem is the single easiest #1 selection in the history of the league. So much so that it's a little hard to be motivated to sort out the rest.

The Lakers gave the Bucks their toughest fight in the playoffs, despite not having West. Goodrich deserves his props, but that makes it hard to go with anyone but Wilt at #2.

I'll give Oscar the 3 slot. It's tempting to argue for other guys over him, but this Buck team is seriously one of the greatest teams in history - and we know that when Oscar went away, it fell apart in a hurry. There's a bit more to it than that, but the man deserves some major credit

In the East, it seems pretty clear who the best player was, despite the Frazier was not the top MVP candidate on his team. I think Reed gets a bit of a bum rap here sometimes because of the push to get Frazier the credit he deserves. We'll see in subsequent voting years that Reed really was the star of the Knicks when they first came to prominence. However, the idea that Reed was superior to Frazier this year just seems bizarre. Honestly, if they had had advanced stats available back in the day, I think voting would have been different. I know that the mainstream basketball media isn't exactly the most stat savvy, but when Frazier's accumulating demonstrably better box score stats and establishing himself as the premier defensive player on the team, and playing way more minutes, things just become quite clear.

With all that said, getting upset by the 42 win Bullets, who then got swept in the finals, makes it too hard to rank him ahead of the top 3.

I'm giving West the last spot. His missing of the playoffs is enough to drop him to this point, but I think we know enough about West to say that what earned him the #2 spot in the MVP voting was not an illusion. The team went 3-8 to finish the season after his injury, and while beating the Bulls may look like an upset, the Lakers had the matchup edge in the regular season even to the point of being on of the 3 post-West wins.

Honorable Mention:

Unseld - I wanted to find him a place in the top 5 this year, as he seems like a guy who deserves some shares - but I just can't do it. Yes he led a team to the finals, but they were a weak team that squeaked by a couple of close series in the weak conference before getting smashed to bits. The West dominates this year, and I certainly can't see putting Wes ahead of Frazier.

Havlicek - Deserving of a spot but I can't find room. It makes sense to drop West below the big stars of playoff teams, but am I really going to knock West for missing the playoffs vs players who weren't in the playoffs?

[Doctor MJ]

It's either Wilt or West for me here and I went with West, greater impact even playing less games. Not going to put two guys in the top 5 on a team that won less than 50 games and that didn't win it all.

I don't get the "won less than 50 games" logic. No complaints about you leaving one of the two off, but this isn't the modern NBA where a dozen teams win 50 games. Putting 2 guys from arguably the 2nd best team in the league seems perfectly fine to me.