Shaq/Wade vs. TD/Kobe

[therealbig3]

Wade getting a lot better when Shaq came along was not really because of Shaq, it was Wade's natural progression as a player. It was only his 2nd year in the league after all. And Wade got only slightly better from that point on, so to say Wade wasn't a HOF player when Shaq won a title with him is an exaggeration, nobody is going to be a HOF player in their 2nd or 3rd year. But he was pretty much in his prime, and he has a solid case for being a top 5 SG ever, or at least pretty close to it, so a prime Wade is one heck of a player to have on your team...especially since Shaq played 2nd fiddle to Wade in their title run.

Anyways, Kobe plays great with Gasol, and they've been through 3 straight Finals and back to back championships together. A just out of his prime Shaq and a prime Wade won only 1 championship together. Basically, you're taking Gasol, giving him all-world defense, and improving pretty much every facet of his game. I don't see how that's not a better combination. And I posted it before, when a prime Shaq and a prime Duncan matched up, they were pretty evenly matched in terms of production, so I don't really see much of a downgrade between prime Shaq and prime Duncan. Honestly, there's a bigger gap between prime Wade and prime Kobe, and that's not even that big of a difference to begin with.

[Andrewchos]

Everyone had career year's the moment Shaq joined that team, he naturally makes life much easier for guards by being a black hole in the paint and drawing 2-3 defenders regularly, not to mention being one of the best passers ever out of the post area. Damon Jones for example also magically had his career year once Shaq joined, everyone acknowledged back then how much Shaq improved his team mates and made life easier for them if you denie it now your just trying to revise history.

I think for most of his Career Shaq had a much larger impact on the court then Duncan did, not that Duncan wasn't one of the best bigs in the league during his career but I really don't see him on the same Tier that young and Prime Shaq were on, and he was younger so he didn't have to play a truly Prime Shaq for aslong as he would have had to if they both were the same age.

I also believe Prime Wade's court impact is on the same Tier as Prime Kobe, I know many disagree but honestly his performances and his statistics back that opinion up completely.

[therealbig3]

Everyone had career year's the moment Shaq joined that team, he naturally makes life much easier for guards by being a black hole in the paint and drawing 2-3 defenders regularly not to mention being one of the best passers ever out of the post area. Damon Jones for example also magically had his career year once Shaq joined, everyone acknowledged then how much Shaq improved his team mates and made life easier for them if you denie it now your just trying to revise history.

Shaq has a profound impact on role players, because they depend on open looks, and people paying attention to the star players. Yes, in this area, Shaq has been awesome. But other star players, like Kobe and Wade, play as well or better without Shaq than they did with Shaq. Kobe and Wade were going to be superstars regardless, so, Shaq joining the Heat in 05 really wasn't the reason why Wade had a huge year. Wade just developed into a great player.

Shaq and TD did play against each other a decent amount of times though. 25 playoff games, 5 playoff series. The only matchup where you could say Shaq dominated Duncan in terms of production was the 04 series. Every other matchup was close. These series were from 99-04, that was Shaq in his prime, wasn't it?

[Andrewchos]

Thats your opinion, cant really be proved either way. I agree that Wade would have become a star eventually either way but I think playing under Oneal highly sped up his development and took a huge amount of pressure off of Wade making it much easier for him to develop his game and get better.

it was "usually" close except for maybe one or two series but Shaq almost always outplayed him even if the gap/difference wasn't tremendous.

[therealbig3]

Thats your opinion, cant really be proved either way. I agree that Wade would have become a star eventually either way but I think playing under Oneal highly sped up his development and took a huge amount of pressure off of Wade making it much easier for him to develop his game and get better.

it was "usually" close except for maybe one or two series but Shaq almost always outplayed him even if the gap/difference wasn't tremendous.

I mean I disagree that prime Wade was equal to Kobe, but I think we can agree that prime Wade and prime Kobe are close, and it looks like we agree that prime Duncan and prime Shaq are close. So the overall matchup should be close as well. I just think Duncan/Kobe is slightly better, and you think Shaq/Wade is slightly better. To each his own I guess.

[ChuckTheD]

Everyone had career year's the moment Shaq joined that team, he naturally makes life much easier for guards by being a black hole in the paint and drawing 2-3 defenders regularly not to mention being one of the best passers ever out of the post area. Damon Jones for example also magically had his career year once Shaq joined, everyone acknowledged then how much Shaq improved his team mates and made life easier for them if you denie it now your just trying to revise history.

Shaq has a profound impact on role players, because they depend on open looks, and people paying attention to the star players. Yes, in this area, Shaq has been awesome. But other star players, like Kobe and Wade, play as well or better without Shaq than they did with Shaq. Kobe and Wade were going to be superstars regardless, so, Shaq joining the Heat in 05 really wasn't the reason why Wade had a huge year. Wade just developed into a great player.

Shaq and TD did play against each other a decent amount of times though. 25 playoff games, 5 playoff series. The only matchup where you could say Shaq dominated Duncan in terms of production was the 04 series. Every other matchup was close. These series were from 99-04, that was Shaq in his prime, wasn't it?

01 too, Shaq dominated Duncan in 01. The Lakers won that series in 4 by an average of 22 points per win. No way Duncan outplayed Shaq that year.

[therealbig3]

No Duncan didn't outplay him in 01, Shaq individually did better but the numbers were pretty close. I'll see if I can find them, I posted them in another thread.

[Andrewchos]

Thats your opinion, cant really be proved either way. I agree that Wade would have become a star eventually either way but I think playing under Oneal highly sped up his development and took a huge amount of pressure off of Wade making it much easier for him to develop his game and get better.

it was "usually" close except for maybe one or two series but Shaq almost always outplayed him even if the gap/difference wasn't tremendous.

I mean I disagree that prime Wade was equal to Kobe, but I think we can agree that prime Wade and prime Kobe are close, and it looks like we agree that prime Duncan and prime Shaq are close. So the overall matchup should be close as well. I just think Duncan/Kobe is slightly better, and you think Shaq/Wade is slightly better. To each his own I guess.

Yes I can certainly agree with that. I wont lie though, I think Prime Shaq was a significantly more valuable player then Prime Duncan even if he didn't always dominate in their H2H matchups.

[therealbig3]

Duncan in 01 playoffs against the Lakers (4 games): 23.0 ppg, 12.3 rpg, .478 FG%, 4.3 bpg, 4.3 apg
Shaq in 01 playoffs against the Spurs (4 games): 27.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, .541 FG%, 1.25 bpg, 2.5 apg

I wouldn't call it domination, but a clear edge to Shaq. Duncan did have a solid edge in blocked shots and assists, but Shaq has him beat considerably in the scoring department, both in volume and efficiency. Their rebounding is practically the same.

Looking at their numbers from 99-03, I would say Duncan slightly outplayed Shaq in 99 and 02, while Shaq slightly outplayed Duncan in 01 and 03. Like I said, Shaq more or less owned Duncan in 04. The overall numbers probably go to Shaq, mainly because of that 04 series, but it's still very close.


Through all 25 playoff games:

Duncan: 25.8 ppg, 12.9 rpg, .483 FG%, 2.4 bpg, 4.1 apg
Shaq: 23.9 ppg, 13.5 rpg, .536 FG%, 2.8 bpg, 2.5 apg

[therealbig3]

Thats your opinion, cant really be proved either way. I agree that Wade would have become a star eventually either way but I think playing under Oneal highly sped up his development and took a huge amount of pressure off of Wade making it much easier for him to develop his game and get better.

it was "usually" close except for maybe one or two series but Shaq almost always outplayed him even if the gap/difference wasn't tremendous.

I mean I disagree that prime Wade was equal to Kobe, but I think we can agree that prime Wade and prime Kobe are close, and it looks like we agree that prime Duncan and prime Shaq are close. So the overall matchup should be close as well. I just think Duncan/Kobe is slightly better, and you think Shaq/Wade is slightly better. To each his own I guess.

Yes I can certainly agree with that. I wont lie though, I think Prime Shaq was a significantly more valuable player then Prime Duncan even if he didn't always dominate in their H2H matchups.

Fair enough, that's your opinion, I don't agree, but I can respect it.

[Andrewchos]

Same, I respect your opinion completely, its definitely logical.

Time for bed now its 4am .

Good talking to ya.
/Gnite

[initiald]

I pick Kobe and Duncan easily knowing their game mesh so well, but also their chemistry. Duncan is one of the most underrated anchor in NBA history because he hasn't won any DPOY, but this guy in his prime not only anchor, but his post D was very underrated as well. He also has that nice little bang shot in that right corner that is so fundamentally sound, but deadly. In fact, Duncan is very clutch for a big as well. That off-leaning, ridiculous shot he hit in the Spurs vs Lakers series '04 was amazing, so was his 3 against the Suns to tie the game. Duncan is very clutch, and can play outside-inside, pick and roll very well. Unlike Shaq, he is all overpowering his opponents. Wade, same thing, relies heavily on his athleticism. I can't fantom after Wade lost his athleticism, he'll be nothing more than an old half-amazing-half VC.

Anyway, Kobe is obviously a better 2 ways player than Wade. He is also a fundamentally sound player. When you put two fundamentally sound players together, you can easily win championship for years to come.

Also for those who think Wade and Shaq can coexisted. Really? Didn't Shaq called Wade "flash" or a "wonder boy" or something? To handle Shaq's ego and his immature, I don't know which competitive players can last with him.

[AgEnT50]

Timmy and Kobe, comfortably.

[kasino]

Kobe/Duncan

Shaq takes his talents to south beach and they eventually implode.
We've seen 3 bad relationships wit the Disel but if were talking strictly basketball still Kobe/Duncan

they both can man the post or midrange on offense
defensivly Duncan is the best thing breathing(without a DPOY smh)


Shaq/Wade would be pretty sweet but the lane is clogged and prime Shaq would get way more touches taking the ball from Wade to create unless he stays at the point then its a whole different story.

[Chosen01]

For people saying the lane would be "clogged" for Wade,obviously didn't watch 05 Heat.

[D Nice]

Bryant & Duncan. There is a MASSIVE defensive separation between Duncan & Shaq, and a prime Kobe is at least one tier above Wade defensively, if not more than one. Offensively it's pretty close to a wash once you consider fit. And then you add to the fact that Kobe & Tim enjoy much better longevity and are much less likely to separate/banter, and the choice becomes pretty easy.

Shaq had no problem coexisting with Penny in his younger days, the only player Shaq ever truly had problems with on the court was Bryant because of his massive Ego and his inability to appreciate how lucky he was to play with the best bigman in the game who made life so much easier for him and did so much for that franchise.

I thought this idiot was banned?

[Chosen01]

Bryant & Duncan. There is a MASSIVE defensive separation between Duncan & Shaq, and a prime Kobe is at least one tier above Wade defensively, if not more than one. Offensively it's pretty close to a wash once you consider fit. And then you add to the fact that Kobe & Tim enjoy much better longevity and are much less likely to separate/banter, and the choice becomes pretty easy.

Shaq had no problem coexisting with Penny in his younger days, the only player Shaq ever truly had problems with on the court was Bryant because of his massive Ego and his inability to appreciate how lucky he was to play with the best bigman in the game who made life so much easier for him and did so much for that franchise.

I thought this idiot was banned?

[D Nice]

Bryant & Duncan. There is a MASSIVE defensive separation between Duncan & Shaq, and a prime Kobe is at least one tier above Wade defensively, if not more than one. Offensively it's pretty close to a wash once you consider fit. And then you add to the fact that Kobe & Tim enjoy much better longevity and are much less likely to separate/banter, and the choice becomes pretty easy.

Shaq had no problem coexisting with Penny in his younger days, the only player Shaq ever truly had problems with on the court was Bryant because of his massive Ego and his inability to appreciate how lucky he was to play with the best bigman in the game who made life so much easier for him and did so much for that franchise.

I thought this idiot was banned?

How else should I refer to the mental midget? Seriously, he's come after me personally and directly on more than one occasion, so I'm not going to feel bad calling a spade a spade.

[kasino]

For people saying the lane would be "clogged" for Wade,obviously didn't watch 05 Heat.

guess thats meant for me(assumption tho)
did and you believe that would be the playstyle with a prime Shaq?
yea ball goes to Shaq

[jaypo]

A couple fo things- Shaq and TD rarely went head to head in the playoffs. In 99 and 2000, Shaq went mainly head to head with DRob. Duncan went at it with the immortal......AC Green at 90 years old. In the latter years, Shaq went head to head with Rasho, Rose, Willis, etc. Duncan went at it with Horry, Samaki Walker, and Slava. So no, they never, outside of a few individual trips downcourt, went head to head.

About Shaq "clogging the paint"- he didn't clog it in 05 and 06, did he? As a matter of fact, I think they functioned pretty well. Wade has as good a midrange shot as anybody, and he is developing his range constantly. I think they function better. Because in his athletic prime, Wade isn't concerned about his numbers or "being a sidekick". Kobe was, and he admitted it. Sure, Shaq will always have an ego. But being the best player in the game will do that to you. But he has proven that if you are all about WINNING, it doesn't matter how many shots you take. His problems started when Kobe was playing selfishly.

For all those that claim Duncan wouldn't have a problem playing with Kobe- what about when Kobe is disregarding the offense and going at it 1 on 5 and shooting in the 30% range and costing them games. You don't think Duncan would hav e a problem with that and say something? If not, I would question his leadership. Think about that!

I always find it funny that people that defend Shaq are the ones that are ridiculed. They are called "mental midgets" even when they post facts to back things up. But if they disagree with hypothetical fairy tale scenarios, they are "mental midgets".

BTW, Kasino, Shaq gave Wade the nickname "Flash" because of how quick he was. The "wonderboy" comment was made, and nobody could confirm if it was negative or not, but the story became "Shaq disrespects Wade by calling him "Wonderboy". He could have called him that because of some spectacular play. And if I'm wrong, let me know. But the "Flash" thing was a compliment.