Dr J & Pau Gasol OR Kobe & Amare?

[LakerLegend]

Stoudamire WAS an All-Star caliber player in his early years/prime. Anyone who watched ball then will say as much. If you want to have a discussion using facts, then have at it. Ignoring them or lying doesn't help anyone, make your argument any more truthful or accomplish anything.

[DR1983]

Stoudamire WAS an All-Star caliber player in his early years/prime. Anyone who watched ball then will say as much. If you want to have a discussion using facts, then have at it. Ignoring them or lying doesn't help anyone, make your argument any more truthful or accomplish anything.

Damon Stoudamire's prime was his rookie year. He was a volume, low%, inefficient chucker and you should be ashamed of yourself for using him as some kinda gold star to enhance Kobe's overrated defensive reputation.

[LakerLegend]

Stoudamire put up his biggest numbers his rookie year because on Portland he was playing on one of the deepest most talented teams ever.

The point is, Kobe could guard quick speedy PG's, the Dr. COULD NOT

[DR1983]

Stoudamire put up his biggest numbers his rookie year because on Portland he was playing on one of the deepest most talented teams ever.

The point is, Kobe could guard quick speedy PG's, the Dr. COULD NOT

J was too busy guarding the likes of Bird, Worthy, Wilkins, King, English and Dantley to be concerned with below average 5'10 PGs. That would've been a waste of his rare defensive abilities.

[SmallBallPlsDie]

..yes it's kobe's fault that he can guard 3 positions when dr j could only guard 1?

wtf..

[LakerLegend]

I must be forgetting all of those Denver-Philly playoff series English and Dr were matched up in.

Or all those Utah-Philly series Doc and Dantley were matched up in.

Guys like Bird and Nique used to get more than their fair share against him.

The point here is versatility, and Doc was not anywhere near as versatile as Kobe.

The proof is in the pudding. 5 titles to 1, and its not like Doc didn't play with tons of talent throughout his NBA career.

[DR1983]

I must be forgetting all of those Denver-Philly playoff series English and Dr were matched up in.

Or all those Utah-Philly series Doc and Dantley were matched up in.

Guys like Bird and Nique used to get more than their fair share against him.

The point here is versatility, and Doc was not anywhere near as versatile as Kobe.

Thing is Kobe isn't, nor has he ever been, a great defensive player. His defensive, like his clutch, reputation far exceed the actual reality. Kobe's a sporadic defender. He can look all-world at times. Other times he looks painfully below average. J brought it all the time. He was bigger, longer and more athletic than Kobe. He could do things on the defensive side of the ball that Kobe simply can't. And Kobe's help D is non-existent. He's never been able to single-handedly disrupt a team's offensive flow like J, MJ, Pip or Glove.

[singlepurposeac]

Damon put up his biggest volume on those Toronto teams because they sucked, and someone needed to score. He was also playing over 40mpg every one of his 2 and a half years there. A look at his per 36 numbers gives a much clearer idea of who Damon was (on a bad team). He was not a bad player by any means, he even developed into a nice vet later, but for you to call him an "all-star" (which he never was) and "one of the quickest players EVER" is laughingstock material.

But why reason with you, you just claimed that the winning argument for Kobe over Dr J is that Kobe has 5 rings, and Dr J has 1 (hint hint, ABA Dr J has more than 1, and he actually carried his teams as the man, they weren't stacked like all Kobe's titles). But hey, let's just count rings. Argument over.

[LakerLegend]

Kobe HAS been a great defensive player since 2000 when COACHES have consistently voted him to the All-Defensive team. See the Doc Rivers mention above. Its one thing to say he's not great now, but to say NEVER is a flat out lie. I can mention other PG's Kobe has successfuly guarded besides Stoudamire and Iverson. Rondo for one when Rivers said he was the greatest help defender since Pippen. Show me Doc do one thing on defense that Kobe is physically incapable of. Kobe is quicker, has better coordination, balance, agility, lateral movement which are crucial to defense.

How often did Doc handle bringing up the ball and playing the facilitator role? He couldnt do that.

The ABA is not by any measure comparable to post-merger NBA. The ABA and the NBA SPLIT the professional talent when both existed. Guys doing drugs left and right and half-a$$ing it which nearly killed the professional game in both leagues. You have to understand the difference between comparing the run and gun no defense playing ABA to the PRE merger NBA and POST-merger NBA which COMBINED all the talent. It's not a coincidence all of the star players in the ABA saw huge drops in statistical dominance post-merger.

No one is hating on Doc or saying he wasn't a great player, but you're being irrational.

[singlepurposeac]

Although the ABA as a whole was weaker, it was smaller too, and there were very good teams who Dr J beat for some of those titles, with what amounted to garbage teams. People claim that Gilmore's stats had a nosedive when he came into the NBA too, but adjusted for pace/minutes, they really didn't. If it makes you feel better, provide a pace/minutes adjustment for Dr J in the ABA, but you won't, because you know it will show up Kobe, so you've resorted to sneering at the ABA, as though in 1976 it was a joke league, which is absurd.

[LakerLegend]

It's not just about pace. you have to consider other factors. For example, the ABA was very weak in big men which led to inflated rebounding numbers, and there is NO WAY to say it had comparable talent/competition to the post merger NBA which TOOK its talent and added it to its own. The ABA relatively speaking WAS a joke league compared to today's NBA. It was on the verge of folding with teams going bankrupt left and right.

You cannot compare the ABA which SPLIT the professional talent with the pre merger NBA, to the CURRENT NBA that Kobe plays in which monopolizes ALL of the professional talent.

[singlepurposeac]

This "ABA was weak on big men" stuff is constantly rebutted on here, I saw a thread a few days ago on Gilmore which rebutted it in depth. It's simply false. Yes, the EARLY ABA had these problems, but by the time Erving won his 2 titles the ABA had plenty of big man talent. Most nights you'd be against a good to great big man, if you can't be bothered to look the thread up, I'll go find it and link you to it.

Today you play more teams, and a smaller % of those teams have a good center/big man. I can't believe it's on me to defend the 70's, I'm often critical of geriatrics pimping out players from the 70's, 60's, and most especially 50's, but I'm not going to stand here while you say such ridiculous things. Sure, the combined NBA/ABA was even better, but then there were more teams too. This claim that #'s in the ABA were all inflated and we can't pace adjust at all is absurd.

[LakerLegend]

You CANNOT refute the fact that the NBA and ABA SPLIT the professional talent in the 70's, while the post merger 80's and current NBA COMBINES all of the professional talent which is a bigger pool anyway due to the growth in popularity of the game. It's proof is in the numbers of ABA players post merger. That's not even considering the advances in defense and scouting. I''m sorry, but you WILL stand there while I say that because there is no logical way to refute it. It's just the facts.

[singlepurposeac]

Nobody has disputed that the talent was split. What they have said is that there were less teams back then, not to mention more talented bigs than there are today, so the special advantage you claim Dr J was getting in the mid 70's didn't exist.

[Father Time]

I must be forgetting all of those Denver-Philly playoff series English and Dr were matched up in.

Or all those Utah-Philly series Doc and Dantley were matched up in.

Guys like Bird and Nique used to get more than their fair share against him.

The point here is versatility, and Doc was not anywhere near as versatile as Kobe.

Thing is Kobe isn't, nor has he ever been, a great defensive player. His defensive, like his clutch, reputation far exceed the actual reality. Kobe's a sporadic defender. He can look all-world at times. Other times he looks painfully below average. J brought it all the time. He was bigger, longer and more athletic than Kobe. He could do things on the defensive side of the ball that Kobe simply can't. And Kobe's help D is non-existent. He's never been able to single-handedly disrupt a team's offensive flow like J, MJ, Pip or Glove.

Just stop. When he was 21-22 Kobe was an excellent defender. His defense became sporadic with age...

And I think Kobe's help D is actually pretty good. Especially this year he has been great at getting in position to draw charges. Wasn't it Doc Rivers who said that Kobe was one of the better help defenders in the league?

[joelafan]

If you want to be on kobes team toughness is requirment . Amara has never been accountable for his defense. Blame his head coachs.... i will go with kobe and amara.

[magic1fan]

seriously why argue with people who are obvious haters with an agenda? you got one guy lying about all kobe's teams he won with were stacked,when infact they were no more stacked than anyother championship team. then you have another poster lying about kobe never played great defense he just got by on reputation,but how can you have a reputation for something you never did? they make no sense and talk in circles. they are running out of ammo. everything kobe has accomplished is tainted,he was just lucky with stacked teams

[G35]

The gap between Kobe and Dr J is MUCH bigger than any gap between Amare and Gasol either way. So Kobe and Amare.

Yes, Kobe is MUCH better than the Dr. ever was. There's literally nothing any version of Doc does as good as Kobe, let alone better save maybe rebounding and even then thats more a product of the positions they play. The difference in skill is as wide as the grand canyon, and I'm someone who thinks the Dr. is underrated these days.

Rebound? Block shots and steal the ball? Slash? Finish? Saying that Kobe is MUCH (in caps and bolded) better than Dr. J ever was is a joke. Kobe might be better, but if so it's not by a lot when we're discussing actual on court impact and level of play.

Not very often I completely agree with J23F. Doc was like a slightly smaller Lebron James. Or Lebron is a bigger Dr. J. Either way this is close competition. Really I think that all the greats would be unable to stop the other. Lebron/DrJ/Kobe/MJ would be unable to stop the other. Just making it difficult and make them work on the defensive end.

Gasol would be a far better interior defender and provide better passing/post up offense. Amare is a better outside shooter and finishes with more authority around the basket while provide back side shot blocking but not much else.

I would take Gasol/Doc.....

[Warspite]

As someone who has personaly watched WNBA players consistantly blow by Amare and beat him in games of 1on1 Im not sure I would take him if you gave me Kobe and MJ. Theres no doubt Kobe would be demanding Amare be traded or demanding a trade after 2 games. Nobody wants to play with him. Did you guys know that Amare offered to take less to play in Miami but Riley wanted no part of him?

DrJ vs Kobe

DrJ didnt guard PGs he was guarding SFs and PFs. IMHO def becomes more valuable as you get closer to the basket so being 1st team all def at guard is not as important as being 2nd team at forward or 3rd team at C.

Todays game is much more about playing 20ft from the basket so Kobe defense could be of more value. However since DrJ can do what maybe no player today can do and thats post up and play with his back to the basket he provides a skill that is in demand. DrJs physical skills along with rule changes would allow him to do things todays players cant do.

Another interesting fact is that DrJ is a better 3pt shooter for much of his career and there career TS% is almost the same.

The leadership factor for me is so much more important and a player like Gasol would love to play with DrJ while the Kobe/amare duo would hate each other.

In conclusion I like the DrJ/Gasol duo because they both are very good players both at offense and defense. They also can play differant styles and are both very good passers. I would much rather coach this duo, If I was an owner I would rather have this duo represent me and if I was a player I would love to play with Gasol and DrJ who share the basketball and are leaders. Many a ABA player has said that when they had a bad game they would get a call from DrJ who encouraged them and helped them become a better player and person and DrJ wasnt even on there team.

[chefy]

They're probably equal in dunking or maybe Dr. J was slightly better...but pure athleticism wise, James is just one of a kind. Hes stronger and much faster and quicker than Dr. J at 6'8 and 250+ lbs.