RealGM Top 100 #3

[penbeast0]

As one of the Mikan supporters the first time my logic was that Mikan was the only guy that had an argument for top 5 while West, who I supported last time, didn't. However, the lack of support is a reason I haven't voted again . . . I encourage people not only to vote "politically" but to change their votes if they see their candidate isn't going to win to encourage majority voting if they see a clear advantage for a competitive candidate . . . especially in the nomination process where it is important to get the guys into the mix who will be in the argument for the #10 spot which is the first place I think Moses, West, LeBron, etc. will even be getting a vote. That said . . .

Nominate Jerry West -- he and Oscar are incredibly close. Oscar was the better offensive player, West the better defender and stretch the floor shooter, West also was the better playoff performer though Oscar was no slouch, nor was LeBron and he's going to be in the mix soon as will Karl Malone, and yes, Mikan.

[Gongxi]

Looks like I'm holding steady with my vote and nomination from the #1 thread: KAJ and Karl Malone.

[Vinsanity420]

West had vastly better off court intangibles, and he was a much better defender.

Where's the evidence?

[GilmoreFan]

Well, if you want political voting, fine. Change my nomination from Lebron (because he won't win this time) to Karl Malone (who I've noted is next on my list after Lebron). That way I can get Karl in, and focus on Lebron next time.

[Sedale Threatt]

Vote: Kareem
Nominate: Garnett

Actually considering Shaq over Wilt for that fourth spot. All the injuries might do him in but straight up, I don't think it's a stretch.

[Fencer reregistered]

West had vastly better off court intangibles, and he was a much better defender.

Where's the evidence?

Bill Simmons put a lot of it together.

Don't roll your eyes; he was very persuasive on the point. Basically, he collected a lot of quotes to the effect that Oscar's teammates didn't like him, and even were somewhat paralyzed by fear of his disapproval.

The favorable-intangibles claim for West is a little harder to document, but he was immensely popular, and WIlt was greatly reformed on his team. Baylor is harder call; he was a great player, he had a long injury decline, he eventually retired gracefully, and yet we sometimes think he accomplished less overall than he perhaps should have.

[ThaRegul8r]

I know most are considering this a foregone conclusion for Kareem, and I don't really have the time to post much tonight, but...at the moment I'm seriously considering Magic for the #3 spot.

Interesting. I'd like to hear the argument.

[Sedale Threatt]

Oscar Robertson was an angry man. Not in a Michael Jordan, you-suck-too-much-to-be-on-my-team kind of way, but in a I-might-strangle-you-in-a-fit-of-rage kind of way. Growing up where he did, when he did, I don't blame him. But his biography just oozed with rage.

[Optimism Prime]

Vote: Kareem
Nominate: West

And GilmoreFan, for someone as worried about tampering and vote fixing as you were prior to the start of the project, doesn't giving a running tally after twelve hours kind of encourage people to analyze their vote and cast it where it'll do the most good if their choice isn't winning? Just wondering.

[GilmoreFan]

Anyone who is going to go to the trouble of acting in bad faith is able to do their own tally. I would prefer preferential voting, and just voting for Lebron (who is one space ahead of Karl on my list), but if the guy running the project's attitude is we should "be political" about this (for the nomination process at least), then he's not giving people alot of choice but to compromise their principles slightly.

I'm glad at least that everyone is sticking with majority rules for the actual vote though, so people who voted for a 3rd party can re-vote when one candidate fails to get a majority.

btw:
Kareem 12-13 votes (I didn't see if Penbeast settled on Kareem)
Wilt- 1

Nominees:
West- 6
Karl Malone- 4
KG- 2
Oscar- 2
Lebron- 1

[penbeast0]

I was clearly Wilt

[An Unbiased Fan]

Vote: KAJ
Nomination: Karl Malone

In regards to nominations, I still surprised that names like KG, Lebron, and Wade are coming up this early. Have they truly passed guys like West, Oscar, DRob, Barkely? Also, I'm not feeling a lot of PG love, perhaps because points don't typically put up monster stats.

Let's compare two players....

DRob vs KG

I have DRob ahead of KG on my list. Interestingly enough, they both had comparable career paths, but IMO, DRob was the superior player.

1) DRob came to a Spurs team that was ranked 13th in defense, and had a 21-61 record. His rookie year.....their defense jumped to #3, and they went 56-26, losing in the 2nd round. That's a major turn-around almost on par with Boston's in 08'. The major difference of course though, is that DRob didn't add Pierce/Allen/Rondo caliber players to his roster.

Also, in 1996 DRob led SA to the #3 defense, and in 1997 with DRob out they dropped to #29.

2) DRob did just as much with his supporting cast, as KG did with his. Sean Elliot was no better than Wally, and Avery Johnson wasn't even on Marbury, Brandon, or Cassell's level. He did get Rodman for a short spell, and the made the WCF where they lost to Hakeem's Rockets.

3) Defensively, DRob was simply the better anchor, I don't think that can be disputed. KG was more versatile, but it didn't translate into overall team impact like DRob's D did. DRob averaged 3.0 BPG for his career. Drob consistent led his teams to a Top defensive rank. KG does trump DRob in All-D teams though, and has a DPOY.

4) Offensively, it's really DRob by good measure. DRob had 4 years of 25+ PPG/57%+ TS scoring, including a scoring title(though that 70 point game was a joke). He also had 8 20+ PPG/57% TS scoring years.

Conversely, KG had ONE 20+/57% TS season. In fact, KG never even had a TS above 55% until the rule changes in 2005.

KG does have an advantage in passing skills, I will give him that. But that advantage doesn't make up for the huge disparity in scoring ability.

5) Rebounding is a slight edge for KG. DRob for his career grabbed 17.3% TRB, while KG grabbed 17.1%. In their peak rebounding years, DRob had 20.8% & KG had 20.3%.

Howver, KG rattled off 4 straight rebound titles, so I'm rating a little higher.

6) Playoff performances is about even. Both guys didn't win till later in their careers. Both guys had dropoffs in efficiency in the playoffs

But for KG, it's pretty amazing that he had only 1 playoff run where he shot a TS% above 55%, while DRob did it 5 times.

7) So I'm really interested to know why qutie a few are picking KG already. A guy like DRob hasn't even gotten a mention yet, largely because he's probably around the #15 range. So how did KG jump over him?

[ThaRegul8r]

In regards to nominations, I still surprised that names like KG, Lebron, and Wade are coming up this early. Have they truly passed guys like West, Oscar, DRob, Barkely?

I don't see why you're surprised. They're players who played in the "modern era." Thus they will be ranked higher on the ubiquitous "most people"'s lists than past players from an era they don't think much of.

[penbeast0]

Positional comparisom. Few had DRob over Moses but several have KG as the next PF over Karl Malone so Garnett got mentioned first. You will see the Admiral start to gather support soon. Good points though.

[Fencer reregistered]

Wherever you think a guy should go (from #11 onward), you have 10 different chances to get him on the nomination list before that slot comes up for voting. If you can't get him on in 10 tries, he's not winning the vote then either.

That's why, even though any one round of the nomination process is badly broken theoretically and in practice, I'm not worrying about it much.

E.g., I first voted West to be nominated at #11. He didn't make it when I voted. But I'm pretty optimistic he'll be on the list by then and indeed before #10 comes up (I'm probably one of the people from whom GilmoreFan is getting the view that there was a consensus top 9, with people's choices for 10th nominee being a bit random, in that I was more explicit that most in saying it).

Once West is on, I may start nominating Pippen. Jordan & Pippen won 6 championships with an all-star PF and little else. That's less help than Magic-plus-older-Kareem had. So there's a strong case to be made that Jordan/Pippen was a better duo than Magic/Kareem. Even noting that Magic and Kareem didn't peak together, this suggests Pippen deserves to be ranked pretty high, even if the lack of accolades (only 1 top 3 MVP, and 2 top 5) gives pause.

By the way, West's MVP placements are 11-5-5-5-3-2-2-2-2-6, so there was quite a good streak in there. Oscar went 5-3-3-1-2-3-4-5-5, which I'd argue wasn't as good, unless you want to penalize West for his GREATER longevity.

[Baller 24]

Vote: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

In terms of nominations I'm still leaning towards Garnett. I truly don't think West or Robertson deserve to be ahead of both Garnett & Malone yet. Wade & LeBron might have an edge over the two in my book too. However, what about someone like Havlicek? Nowitzki too should be coming up soon.

He's kinda like a Pippen for the Russell era, but when Cowens arrived, Havlicek was the clear leader of the team when they won two championships (ex. Kind of like how Walt Fraizer was the leader of the Knicks, even though the league gave Reed the accolades). So I'm interested to see where he ranks, he's got the whole package in terms of scoring, rebounding, passing, defense, and he had some incredible stamina.

AUF, why so much love for Barkley? Nowizki, Wade, LeBron, Garnett, Malone, Robinson, Fraizer, West, Robertson, Havlicek ALL bare a mention before him, pretty easily. As great of a RS he's had and how much peak dominance he's had, he doesn't have the playoff accolades to compare with any of these guys. And while LeBron may not either when it comes to championships, he's clearly got a peak that's considered a GOAT level for about 3-4 seasons now, that maybe only 4 players in league history might be capable of matching. That's a considerable advantage of Barkley, while Malone's got that kind of superstar peak and prime continuing for 10+ seasons.

Nomination: Kevin Garnett

[Baller 24]

BTW, Bob Pettit deserves a mention soon.

[An Unbiased Fan]

AUF, why so much love for Barkley? Nowizki, Wade, LeBron, Garnett, Malone, Robinson, Fraizer, West, Robertson, Havlicek ALL bare a mention before him, pretty easily. As great of a RS he's had and how much peak dominance he's had, he doesn't have the playoff accolades to compare with any of these guys. And while LeBron may not either when it comes to championships, he's clearly got a peak that's considered a GOAT level for about 3-4 seasons now, that maybe only 4 players in league history might be capable of matching. That's a considerable advantage of Barkley, while Malone's got that kind of superstar peak and prime continuing for 10+ seasons.

I have Barkley as my #3 PF of all-time, slighty ahead of Dirk, who's slighty ahead of KG.

Barkley is the greatest offensive PF ever. While Dirk is a better shooter, Barkley had good shot, and a devastating post game. He was also a monster on the offensive boards, and a great passer. From 87'-90', Barkley led the league in TS%, and was 65%+ all those years. His career TS was 61.2%.

Barkley is also on par, if not better than KG as a rebounder. In 87' where Chuck posted 14.6 rpg, he also grabbed 5.7 offensive boards at a 16.7% rate. Barkley had 13 years with 11+ rpg to KG's 8.

Defensively....well, that's the reason Barkley is around the #15 range, and not the #5. He was a decent post defender, even against guys like Shaq, and his defensive rebounding was great. But, he was lazy on rotations, and due to being out of shape many of his years, didn't have the stamina to put forth much defensive effort. nevermind the fact that he was 6'6 and very undersized.

Playoff-wise, Barkley isn't much different from most of the players in the #12-20 range. He had a shot in 93', but came up short against MJ. His offensive numbers dropped a bit from the RS, and he had his short-comings like most 1 title/ringless HOFers do.

Overall, Barkley had 2.438 MVP shares, and 8 Top 6 MVP finishes. He was either 1st or 2nd team All-NBA for 10 straight years.

[Vinsanity420]

Bill Simmons put a lot of it together.

Don't roll your eyes; he was very persuasive on the point. Basically, he collected a lot of quotes to the effect that Oscar's teammates didn't like him, and even were somewhat paralyzed by fear of his disapproval.

The favorable-intangibles claim for West is a little harder to document, but he was immensely popular, and WIlt was greatly reformed on his team. Baylor is harder call; he was a great player, he had a long injury decline, he eventually retired gracefully, and yet we sometimes think he accomplished less overall than he perhaps should have.

All that is similar to what Kobe was doing between 05-07 when his teammates weren't producing favorable results. Does one rank Kobe lower for this too? How is having a bad supporting cast on Oscar? Why not just rate him on how good he was at playing basketball?

[lorak]

Nominate Jerry West -- he and Oscar are incredibly close. Oscar was the better offensive player, West the better defender and stretch the floor shooter,

1. There's no evidence that West was better shooter. In fact data suggest otherwise: career regular season FT%: West 81.4, Robertson 83.8; playoffs: 80.5 West, 85.5 Robertson (!), Big O was even better shooter under pressure, while West was worse.

2. Small players have smaller impact on D than on O, so Oscar's advantage on offense is more valuable than West's advantage on defense.

West also was the better playoff performer

No, he wasn't.

Code: Select all

Robertson's and West's playoffs statistics from 1961-62 to 1969-70

stat   OR 62-70   JW 62-70
PPG   29.7      30.9
TS%   56.6      55.6
FT%   86.9      80.6
RPG   9.3      5.9
APG   9.4      5.9


Of course someone might tell that West's prime years were different. So lets look at West's prime, which was from '65 to '72 (5 times in these 8 seasons he finished 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting):

Code: Select all

stat   OR 62-70   JW 65-72
PPG   29.7      31.0
TS%   56.6      54.2
FT%   86.9      82.5
RPG   9.3      4.8
APG   9.4      6.9


West had vastly better off court intangibles, and he was a much better defender.

Any proof of these intangibles? No some mythical stories but real impact on on court events.
And how it works? I mean, if West was better at it how it helped his team? Show some examples when Lakers won games because of West's intangibles.

As for defense, it's less important when we are talking about small players. Offense is much more valuable and in some aspects of defense (defensive rebounding, but also for example post defense) Robertson was better.