RealGM Top 100 #5

[Baller 24]

And?
KG was also greater defender than Magic. Does it mean he was also more all around than Johnson?

You just stated that Garnett wasn't a better all-around player than Oscar Robertson. My defense is that Garnett's defense makes up for the lack of scoring.

I hope I'll speak about it more when come time to votes for West and Robertson, now only that:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6205
and that:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=7225

[/quote]

Point noted, but the same statement can be made on the defensive end about the '08 Celtics.

[Dr Positivity]

The argument is a ways away, but I have KG as a better offensive player than DRob handidly. Robinson, Ewing, Dwight are the 3 guys who's skill level and fundamentals offensively are more suspect than their raw regular season stats show to me - and the playoffs have been the litmus test for them at times when facing a great C defender. Relying on physical ability over skill to create shots is more likely to down you in the playoffs, in my opinion

[RoyceDa59]

I think it would be a shame for Wilt to slip any further, his detractors will mention that he wasn't particularly clutch, and they'd have a legitimate claim, but besides that one factor Wilt was the most dominant and unstoppable force the league has ever seen. I think top 5 all-time suits him quite well and he deserves to be slotted in before Bird, Shaq and Duncan.

[Baller 24]

For the regular season, KG was the clear-cut best player. But....you mentioned championship run, and for the 08' playoffs, Pierce has equal if not better performances.

?

Code: Select all

Garnett
20.4PPG/10.5RPG/3.3APG/1.1BLK/1.3STL/49.5%FG/PER: 23.0

Pierce
19.7PPG/5.0RPG/4.6/APG/1.0STL/44.1%FG/36.1 %3PT/PER: 17.4


Not really.

Not only did Pierce win Finals MVP, but he also played fantastic defense against both Kobe & Lebron.

Uhh, guess who the anchor of that defense was.

In the Bos-Cle game 7, Pierce had 41 points to save that title run. In the closeout game against the Pistons IN Detroit, Pierce dropped 27.

Nitpicking again, look above, I still don't see the correlation of consistent play that states it's better than Garnett's.

RE: Finals MVP, I've already gone over this numerous times in prior threads, Gasol at the time was playing some fantastic defense, he limited Martin (41%), Boozer (38%), Duncan (42%), and eventually Garnett (44%) to inefficient/higher turnover games. This is without the help of Andrew Bynum. Pierce was guarded by Walton/Vlad, because Bryant's defense was obviously exposed as weak.

But beyond that, I still don't see how KG was a better player than DRob.

Robinson was never considered the best player in the league throughout his peak/prime, Garnett was considered so on two different occasions, and in '04 it wasn't even close (Iike '09 LeBron, '00/'01 Shaq, ETC).

[An Unbiased Fan]

A lot of great posts about so far. That was definitely a thought provoking, Fatal. Perhaps I will give Bird a 2nd look. Though I still feel the narrative of his career, is what's carrying his support. He was certainly a fantastic player, with a storied career, I'm just not seeing him as a better player than the 00's group.

i don't have a problem with him going 5 but i do have a problem when people poo-poo the "immortal six" as if it's an antiquated and arbitrary grouping. no. those 6 guys are balls-out better. there has been nobody since MJ to dominate the game the same way that those 6 guys have - winning multiple rings and championships with such over-the-top dominance that everyone else is playing for 2nd place. Not Duncan, not Shaq, not even Kobe. With Shaq his dominance was woefully short especially given the context of his "long" career, with Duncan it was not nearly dominant enough, and Kobe came too little too late.

I think the "immortal 6" was relevant Pre-00's. But as in any sport, other great players come along. I think there's a mental block against rating anyone over those guys, and there shouldn't be. Shaq, Kobe, TD are definitely on par with Bird in the playoffs, and have better longevity.

[RoyceDa59]

Outside of his legend as part of the "Immortal 6", I don't see how Bird is ahead of Shaq, Kobe, or TD. His peak isn't better than Shaq's, and both Kobe & TD beat him in longevity, 2-way play, and playoff success.

However, you can definitely argue he's on par with Shaq in terms of his peak, and better than Duncan, and significantly better than that of Bryant. You can go through the 80s and literally pick out 3-4 years like you can with Shaq or Duncan, and you can say he was the best player in the league.

You can look through the careers of about 6 of the candidates, and argue that they were the best players during a certain span. My problem is that we're talking semantics at that point.

I still think the 'Immortal 6" weighs heavy on people's minds, because if Wilt & Bird are taken with the next 2 picks, it stays intact. I really haven't heard any convincing arguments for Bird other than the "peak" arguemnt. And honsetly, that was a 3 year peak on one side of the court, and that didn't produce any more playoff success than Shaq, Kobe, TD had in similiar 3 year spans. And those guys had less support than Bird.

While I agree the immortal 6 is a bit of an old boys club if anything, and it's certainly not set in stone, I can't say that I agree with the notion that Bird being the clear cut best player in the league is just semantics. He won back-to-back-to-back MVP's from 84-86, making him indisputably the best player in the league at that time. There are only two other players to win 3 straight MVP's (Russell and Wilt). Many players won MVP when they were not the best player in the league, but rather the timing of their best statistical season and team success swayed the voters. (Iverson in '01 as an example, Rose this past year as another). I think back-to-back MVP's, similar to back-to-back titles (and associated finals MVP's) adds a little more credibility to a career resume. The ability to repeat speaks to a player's commitment to the game.

Regular season MVP is the one individual accolade that I personally place the most stock in, and for that reason, I place Bird ahead of Shaq, Duncan and Kobe, and slightly behind Wilt in the all-time rankings.

[Dr Positivity]

I'm changing my nomination to Garnett (will edit the original post). Baller made some good points, KG's career arc looks similar to Oscar's with the 1 big year and then a bunch of knockouts and the playoff misses at the end, then winning a title on a stacked team - except in each case he does a little better than Oscar, with worse help (though arguably Oscar having a league with 40% of teams being more talented than his balances that out, as I mentioned in a post a little while ago). KG has as good of stats. But if there's a tiebreaker if he needs it, it's that KG's attitude impresses me more. Oscar has admitted in his book his teams didn't have good chemistry. That probably played its part in them underperforming and collapsing, while the Twolves collapse in 06, 07 was related to everyone but KG being absolute balls.

[RoyceDa59]

Vote: Wilt
Nomination: Kevin Garnett

[An Unbiased Fan]

The argument is a ways away, but I have KG as a better offensive player than DRob handidly. Robinson, Ewing, Dwight are the 3 guys who's skill level and fundamentals offensively are more suspect than their raw regular season stats show to me - and the playoffs have been the litmus test for them at times when facing a great C defender. Relying on physical ability over skill to create shots is more likely to down you in the playoffs, in my opinion

DRob was a fantastic offensive player. His career TS% is 58.3%, and he crushes KG in efficiency. We're talking about a former scoring champ, a guy who put up 29.8 PPG and 4.8 apg, while grabbing 3 offensive boards in his prime. DRob's jumpshot >>> KG's, seriously.

In what way does KG beat DRob handily on offensively? I mean really, did you just compare Dwight's offensive skil to DRob's?

[Baller 24]

If Magic has the Bill Russell persona to the '80s, than Duncan definitely has the same persona to the '00s. He's done practically everything it takes for his team to win at all possible costs. He's been loyal, which only remains between only two other candidates (Olajuwon/Bird), he's taken a massive salary cut and restructured his contract in expense to help his team win at all possible costs.

Bryant's been as far as bitching at his management for more talent, where Duncan has never even questioned the attics of his management. O'Neal's had his issues all-around the league. As for Chamberlain, we've heard plenty of stories from his end.

And while Bird in '80 during his rookie season had a turnaround season with immediate impact (turned a 20 win team to a 60 win team), Duncan in '03 with the youth and inconsistency in terms of talent, had an absolute tear throughout the season and playoffs.

[Vinsanity420]

I mean really, did you just compare Dwight's offensive skil to DRob's?

He might be more "skilled" offensively, but that doesn't mean he produces that way too. He averaged around a 54 TS% in his playoff career, compared to Dwight's 62 TS%. That's a massive difference. Robinson's volume wasn't significantly higher either. Their playoff O-Rating/Usage Rates are comparable as well.

[Baller 24]

DRob was a fantastic offensive player. His career TS% is 58.3%, and he crushes KG in efficiency. We're talking about a former scoring champ, a guy who put up 29.8 PPG and 4.8 apg, while grabbing 3 offensive boards in his prime. DRob's jumpshot >>> KG's, seriously.

Yes, but looking at RPOY, Robinson's been considered a top 5 player in the league 6 times, where he's never been considered the absolute heads and toes as the best. Where Garnett's been considered a top 5 player in the league 7 times, where he's been considered the best on 2 different occasions (one of which was overwhelmingly).

In what way does KG beat DRob handily on offensively? I mean really, did you just compare Dwight's offensive skil to DRob's?

If you've ever watched Robinson play, he's a face-up player that relies heavily on his face-up jumper, something that didn't help him nor Ewing. Where has Garnett's also got the skillset and advantages to score with his back against the basket in the low-post.

[Dr Positivity]

I don't think Robinson is more skilled than Dwight. Robinson has a respectable but not great jumper, Dwight has better post ability. For both the rest comes down to physical talent, Robinson having more (basically Wilt's body). I consider KG to be more skilled than Robinson at every facet of the game more or less

[JordansBulls]

DRob was a fantastic offensive player. His career TS% is 58.3%, and he crushes KG in efficiency. We're talking about a former scoring champ, a guy who put up 29.8 PPG and 4.8 apg, while grabbing 3 offensive boards in his prime. DRob's jumpshot >>> KG's, seriously.

Yes, but looking at RPOY, Robinson's been considered a top 5 player in the league 6 times, where he's never been considered the absolute heads and toes as the best. Where Garnett's been considered a top 5 player in the league 7 times, where he's been considered the best on 2 different occasions (one of which was overwhelmingly).

That's because Robinson was in the league with peak MJ and peak Hakeem.

[An Unbiased Fan]

DRob was a fantastic offensive player. His career TS% is 58.3%, and he crushes KG in efficiency. We're talking about a former scoring champ, a guy who put up 29.8 PPG and 4.8 apg, while grabbing 3 offensive boards in his prime. DRob's jumpshot >>> KG's, seriously.

Yes, but looking at RPOY, Robinson's been considered a top 5 player in the league 6 times, where he's never been considered the absolute heads and toes as the best. Where Garnett's been considered a top 5 player in the league 7 times, where he's been considered the best on 2 different occasions (one of which was overwhelmingly).

With all due respect to the great job Doc with the RPOY project, I don't really use it as a guide. KG wasn't even the best player in 08', but I won't get into why he won.

MVP shares:
DRob - 3.123
KG - 2.752

Top 10 MVP finishes:
DRob - 8
KG - 5

MVPs:
DRob - 1
KG - 1

If you've ever watched Robinson play, he's a face-up player that relies heavily on his face-up jumper, something that didn't help him nor Ewing. Where has Garnett's also got the skillset and advantages to score with his back against the basket in the low-post.

I have seen DRob all of his career, inlcuding his very first game against LA. KG isn't even on his tier offensively. KG's game revolves around jumpshots too. He can post up occasionally, but DRob could also.

[Baller 24]

With all due respect to the great job Doc with the RPOY project, I don't really use it as a guide. KG wasn't even the best player in 08', but I won't get into why he won.

Probably cause it's immune to Bryant, but aside from that in '04, you can clearly make a case, despite him not getting past LA, as for Robinson, there really isn't a season where you can say the same for him.

I have seen DRob all of his career, inlcuding his very first game against LA. KG isn't even on his tier offensively. KG's game revolves around jumpshots too. He can post up occasionally, but DRob could also.

When has Garnett's entire game revolved around jump shots? It's clearly evident that he's a better low-post player than Robinson's ever been, same for Ewing.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I don't think Robinson is more skilled than Dwight. Robinson has a respectable but not great jumper, Dwight has better post ability. For both the rest comes down to physical talent, Robinson having more (basically Wilt's body). I consider KG to be more skilled than Robinson at every facet of the game more or less

I have to ask, did you see DRob play pre-97'? Because Dwight isn't anywhere close skill-wise. Dwight puts up great FG% numbers because he's 5 feet from the basket. Keep in mind Kwame Brown put up 59% FG% one year.

For historical perspective, here's DRob's Quad Double game. 34 points, 10 assists, 10 rebs, 10 blocks

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkpT0QdUDIY[/youtube]

[Baller 24]

That's because Robinson was in the league with peak MJ and peak Hakeem.

1st three-peat Jordan is considered more peak than the 2nd, and aside from that he won the MVP handily over Olajuwon, he had the best record in the west.

[lorak]

And?
KG was also greater defender than Magic. Does it mean he was also more all around than Johnson?

You just stated that Garnett wasn't a better all-around player than Oscar Robertson. My defense is that Garnett's defense makes up for the lack of scoring.

I understand, but if you look at this that way you should also admit that KG is more all around player than Magic. If not - why?

[Baller 24]

I understand, but if you look at this that way you should also admit that KG is more all around player than Magic. If not - why?

I don't look at it that way, you knocked Garnett for his inability to score on volume, so I shot one right back at you.