Real GM Top 100 List #11

[penbeast0]

...
Can a Wade supporter explain his case over Pettit? He dominated his position (some say invented it) and had ridiculously more MVP and all-NBA love.

For that matter, in Wade v. LeBron, Wade's health issues are also big, he's only had 5 full seasons to LeBron's 8. 8 is getting into the territory where I don't worry much about durability, 5 is Moncrief/McAdoo area.

[Laimbeer]

...
Can a Wade supporter explain his case over Pettit? He dominated his position (some say invented it) and had ridiculously more MVP and all-NBA love.

For that matter, in Wade v. LeBron, Wade's health issues are also big, he's only had 5 full seasons to LeBron's 8. 8 is getting into the territory where I don't worry much about durability, 5 is Moncrief/McAdoo area.

But nominating Wade now isn't picking him over LeBron, since Bron's been nominated.

[ElGee]

For Wade fans, how do you get around the fact that he has only 8 years in the league and 3 of them had serious injury issues?

2 years, not 3.

KG doesn't deserve to be above Malone. He was in his prime a great defender, but his teams weren't elite in defense and his teams (as the alpha dog) only passed one time first round if not missed playoffs.

I'm not saying KG it's not great. He was great, but I think he is pretty overrated here by two facts
1) The year when he was MVP (he deserved it, he was a beast that season)
2) The year he won the ring.
But two great years can't deny the fact that as the big dog he only managed with:
7 years above 50 in W-L % (6 if you consider 98-99 his first prime season)
7 first round exits (5 if you consider 98-99)
3 years of missing playoffs in his prime (you can say he played with terrible teammates, but players like Lebron, Kobe, AI, Kidd made it with terrible teammates)

You can't just blankly look at a team's performance and judge a player based on it. There's been extensive discussion on this, and it feels like you are blankly ignoring it to cite Minnesota -- arguably the worst run professional franchise of the last decade or so -- and its defensive rating/team performance.

Did you read drza's fantastic post? In case we all somehow forgot, KG's teams were losing to ELITE teams year in and year out, and often performing better against them than the rest of the league - something sparked by Garnett's play.

Missing the playoffs has been addressed extensively as well. Basketball isn't a one-on-one sport. The whole point of this project is to judge players on how they played.

[Baller 24]

Wade's actually only had 1.5 seasons where he's been injured. He was amongst the elite in '07, just too bad he got that shoulder injury.

[ElGee]

disingenuous factoids that i can't get my feeble mind over when considering KG:
- for his first 7 playoff series, he won a cumulative 7 games.
- only four 50+-win seasons with minny, 7 overall. dirk has 11. chuck has 8. Malone has 11.
- in his 3 deep playoff runs, he went from 24/15/4 (very impressive) to 20.5/10.5.3 (mildly impressive) to 15/7/2.5 (fairly unimpressive). that's it! 3 series where he hit double-digit games as a sample size...
- in comparison, DRob who entered the league 6 years older than KG to a crappier squad had 4 "deep" playoff pushes before Duncan arrived (7 overall) and had better numbers in those series - even if he did take a hit in production from the regular season.
- DRTGs (RS/PS):: KG (pre-Celtics): 100/100.6 KG(career): 99/99.5. Drob (pre-duncan): 97/101. Drob(career): 96/96

1 - i really dislike the "his production took a hit" argument, especially when the net results are ignored. Kidd's apg and fg% all took a hit in the postseason whereas billups' points, assists, and rebounds all rose yet nobody's making a case that kidd is better than billups... are they? if someone "shut down" DRob to 20/10 whereas KG "stepped his game up" to 20/10... does it really matter

Disingenuous? These "factoids" have all been addressed -- what about the explanations did you not find adequate?

-You really can't see how it's possible for one team to have more wins than another without having a better player?
-How on earth did David Robinson have a crappier team than Kevin Garnett? For someone who harps on teams so much, you have an *extremely* bizarre view of them.

-How are the "net results" ignored for Garnett? (I think they are ignored because his team's lost, which creates Losing Bias and a warped memory of all his great performances.) The difference, which has been explained in detail, is that it's hard to see David Robinson's impact outside the box score. His role is different. His teams were different. People played him different. Did you watch both of these guys closely throughout their career or are you just looking at a box?

[FJS]

ElGee, I agree basketball it's not one to one, but it's a team sports, and when your team don't have success and you are the franchise player it should be your fault.
Some great player have not won a ring, but at least all have played finals as the first team option (Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Baylor to name a few)

Then, I don't think here we can judge how they played, because there's a few players nobody has seen how they played. Russell and Wilt has been voted due to his stats and his accolades, plus their reputation.
Oscar will be. A few saw KAJ in his last years. And Pettit will be too.
The most of realgm poster are in his 20 or early 30. Some guys have not seen play Bird, Magic or early Jordan, Hakeem, Ewing, Barkley, Malone...

[MarJJMar]

How can Nash not be nominated here, I see a 2 time MVP getting no respect once again.

Wade over Nash right now? In what universe?

Yeah Miami won a championship coming out of the weak East upsetting Dallas but anyone who thinks that Miami team was actually the best team in the NBA is delusional.

[penbeast0]

Wade's actually only had 1.5 seasons where he's been injured. He was amongst the elite in '07, just too bad he got that shoulder injury.

Rookie Season, only played 61 games (includes 5 off the bench)
2007 played 51 games, less than 2000 minutes
2008 played 51 games, less than 2000 minutes

As I said, 5 full seasons, 3 partial ones, though on his side, he has always been healthy for the playoffs. It's only one factor but health and longevity is a significant one.

[Baller 24]

How can Nash not be nominated here, I see a 2 time MVP getting no respect once again.

Wade over Nash right now? In what universe?

Yeah Miami won a championship coming out of the weak East upsetting Dallas but anyone who thinks that Miami team was actually the best team in the NBA is delusional.

Read the rules and criteria before you disrupt the threads please.

1) No one's saying Miami was the best team.
2) We're determining individual peak play, career play, and overall dominance relative to each players era. Hence, the reason we're not valuing only career play.

[Baller 24]

Wade's actually only had 1.5 seasons where he's been injured. He was amongst the elite in '07, just too bad he got that shoulder injury.

Rookie Season, only played 61 games (includes 5 off the bench)
2007 played 51 games, less than 2000 minutes
2008 played 51 games, less than 2000 minutes

As I said, 5 full seasons, 3 partial ones, though on his side, he has always been healthy for the playoffs. It's only one factor but health and longevity is a significant one.

Yeah, I wasn't counting the rookie season

[Laimbeer]

Neither Frazier nor Pettit have been nominated yet, Laimbeer.

Aaaand in the time I posted that, you deleted your post, which sucks because I think it was an informative one.

If you're referring to the list of players not nominated, I realized it was hosed up, deleted it, and posted again.

[Dr Positivity]

I was planning to vote Pettit in somewhere around Bob Lanier and Dave Cowens. Good big man but I feel like his dominance rising to the #1/#2 guy in the league was about Oscar, Wilt, West not being there yet. Nice face-up jumpshot and toughness and great rebounding for the time, but does this sound like a top 21 player? I feel like if he's around even in the early 70s, even if he wins an MVP there, he's at best he's in that Cowens Reed McAdoo zone of "Ok, top 40-50 big man who won an MVP, but how excited are we really by this guy's career" zone

I think I'm going to change my nomination to Patrick Ewing, I completley forgot about him after pushing him a few threads ago. If you're on the anti Wade bandwagon because of longevity, what about Ewing? He gives you a long career at the most important position and has a relative amount of success

[Laimbeer]

How can Nash not be nominated here, I see a 2 time MVP getting no respect once again.

Wade over Nash right now? In what universe?

Yeah Miami won a championship coming out of the weak East upsetting Dallas but anyone who thinks that Miami team was actually the best team in the NBA is delusional.

Read the rules and criteria before you disrupt the threads please.

1) No one's saying Miami was the best team.
2) We're determining individual peak play, career play, and overall dominance relative to each players era. Hence, the reason we're not valuing only career play.

The point about Miami is a little sloppy, but Nash having two MVP seasons is certainly a valid point, particularly for peak play.

[Laimbeer]

I was planning to vote Pettit in somewhere around Bob Lanier and Dave Cowens. Good big man but I feel like his dominance rising to the #1/#2 guy in the league was about Oscar, Wilt, West not being there yet.

I have to say I'm pretty stunned by that coming from you, makes me wonder if I need to reconsider how great the guy was. He is a tier below those guys, but does that make him Lanier or Cowens?

[Baller 24]

Patrick Ewing is very underrated IMO. He anchored some of the best and most physical defense we've ever seen. Just sucks he played in an era where Robinson, O'Neal and Olajuwon dominated statistically. Other than that, he's still a fantastic player, and was until '99. And it's too bad he routinely faced Jordan.

[colts18]

Here is my Malone vs. KG case.

Here are there numbers through age 34:
Malone: 26.2 PPG, 10.7 Reb, .583 TS%, 3.3 Ast, 24.1 PER, .207 WS/48
Garnett: 19.5 PPG, 10.7 Reb, .549 TS%, 4.1 Ast, 23.5 PER, .191 WS/48

Playoffs:
Malone: 26.9 PPG, 11.4 Reb, 2.9 Ast, .532 TS%, 22.3 PER, .154 WS/48
Garnett: 19.6 PPG, 11.1 Reb, 3.8 Ast, .519 TS%, 21.7 PER, .151 WS/48

Malone had a few solid years after this including an MVP season. KG is already declining rapidly.

All-NBA:
Malone: 14 All-NBA (11 first team)
Garnett: 9 All-NBA (4 first team)

MVP:
Malone: 2 MVP, 14 top 10, 9 Top 5, 5 Top 3
Garnett: 1 MVP, 7 Top 10, 5 Top 5, 4 Top 3

Head to Head:
Malone: 24.5 PPG, 8.8 Reb, 4.1 AST, 51.7 FG%
Garnett: 19.3 PPG, 10.0 Reb, 3.6 AST, 46.8 FG%

NBA Finals:
Malone- 24.4 PPG, 10.4 Reb, 3.7 AST, 47.3 FG%, .517 TS%
Garnett- 16.6 PPG, 9.0 Reb, 3.0 AST, 46.6 FG%, .509 TS%

You can't use the age excuse because Malone went to the Finals in his age 33 and 34 season while KG went in his 31 and 33. Malone did this while being guarded by one of the best defenders in history. Pau Gasol is no Dennis Rodman. Malone drew 2.2x more FT than KG in 1 less game.

One of the reasons I have Malone ahead is because of the significant offensive advantage. Big part is FT. Malone drew about 2x more FT than KG does. Not only does he rack up FT, but he forces his opponent into the penalty early helping his teammates out. All the KG supporter fail to mention his embarrassing track record at drawing FT.

[penbeast0]

I was planning to vote Pettit in somewhere around Bob Lanier and Dave Cowens. Good big man but I feel like his dominance rising to the #1/#2 guy in the league was about Oscar, Wilt, West not being there yet. Nice face-up jumpshot and toughness and great rebounding for the time, but does this sound like a top 21 player? I feel like if he's around even in the early 70s, even if he wins an MVP there, he's at best he's in that Cowens Reed McAdoo zone of "Ok, top 40-50 big man who won an MVP, but how excited are we really by this guy's career" zone

I think I'm going to change my nomination to Patrick Ewing, I completley forgot about him after pushing him a few threads ago. If you're on the anti Wade bandwagon because of longevity, what about Ewing? He gives you a long career at the most important position and has a relative amount of success

Ewing ranks 2nd on my list of unnominated centers behind the stronger, better rebounding, better peak defense, and more efficient scoring Artis Gilmore plus Artis had that great championship run in 75. Both greats and will be nominated for me soon but . . .

As for the others:

Pettit v. Lanier: Pettit scored more, rebounded a lot more, was a more consistent defender, got All-NBA votes every year while Lanier never got any, and led his team to a lot of success while Lanier never led Detroit much of anywhere. Lanier is one of the great stats to little team success guys here on the site.

Pettit v. Cowens: Cowens is another big with a good outside inside game who can also be described as relentless and won MVPs on a championship team despite mediocre fg%. Pettit is the better rebounder and scorer, Cowens the better defender. So . . . where is the big difference, it is in Pettit's greatest strength, his ability to draw fouls. Pettit drew 10.2 foul/36 min over the course of his career (while shooting 80% from the line which his peers in this area, Wilt and Shaq, mmm didn't). Cowens drew 3.2/36. That's a ridiculous difference and what Pettit was best known for (other than the 50 point, singlehandedly taking over the 4th quarter, game 7 to beat the Russell/Cousy/Sharman Celtics). Pettit translates this into a big edge in scoring, rebounding, and ability to dominate.

Pettit v. Reed: virtually identical to the Pettit v. Cowens thread except Reed also had troubles staying healthy. He's mainly in this conversation as the darling of the NY media.

Pettit v. McAdoo: If Bob McAdoo had stayed clear of the drugs, continued his incredibly good 5 year peak to 10 years, and carried the Buffalo Braves to a championship, he'd be Pettit. He didn't. It's like Wade v. Pettit only Wade can surpass Pettit with a normal career arc in a couple of years.

None of these guys were as consistent for as long as Pettit, nor were any his equal at rebounding and only McAdoo equaled him as a scorer. They just aren't in the same category. Now, if you want to compare Baylor to Pettit, that's like Oscar Robertson v. Jerry West only with a slightly stronger edge to Pettit than to West in my book.

[Baller 24]

Here is my Malone vs. KG case.

Here are there numbers through age 34:
Malone: 26.2 PPG, 10.7 Reb, .583 TS%, 3.3 Ast, 24.1 PER, .207 WS/48
Garnett: 19.5 PPG, 10.7 Reb, .549 TS%, 4.1 Ast, 23.5 PER, .191 WS/48

Playoffs:
Malone: 26.9 PPG, 11.4 Reb, 2.9 Ast, .532 TS%, 22.3 PER, .154 WS/48
Garnett: 19.6 PPG, 11.1 Reb, 3.8 Ast, .519 TS%, 21.7 PER, .151 WS/48

Malone had a few solid years after this including an MVP season. KG is already declining rapidly.

All-NBA:
Malone: 14 All-NBA (11 first team)
Garnett: 9 All-NBA (4 first team)

MVP:
Malone: 2 MVP, 14 top 10, 9 Top 5, 5 Top 3
Garnett: 1 MVP, 7 Top 10, 5 Top 5, 4 Top 3

Head to Head:
Malone: 24.5 PPG, 8.8 Reb, 4.1 AST, 51.7 FG%
Garnett: 19.3 PPG, 10.0 Reb, 3.6 AST, 46.8 FG%

NBA Finals:
Malone- 24.4 PPG, 10.4 Reb, 3.7 AST, 47.3 FG%, .517 TS%
Garnett- 16.6 PPG, 9.0 Reb, 3.0 AST, 46.6 FG%, .509 TS%

You can't use the age excuse because Malone went to the Finals in his age 33 and 34 season while KG went in his 31 and 33. Malone did this while being guarded by one of the best defenders in history. Pau Gasol is no Dennis Rodman. Malone drew 2.2x more FT than KG in 1 less game.

One of the reasons I have Malone ahead is because of the significant offensive advantage. Big part is FT. Malone drew about 2x more FT than KG does. Not only does he rack up FT, but he forces his opponent into the penalty early helping his teammates out. All the KG supporter fail to mention his embarrassing track record at drawing FT.

1) Dennis Rodman during the Bulls years was also no "shut-down/all-time" defender that was capable of holding his own, he was more of just a rebounding force that hustled on defense.

But we never saw his true defensive power that he showcased with the Pistons at peak form, and you can even look at accolades, his All-NBA Defense stops after '96, and if you want to correlate that with DPOY, he only had a total of eight 1st place votes during his tenure. So not really "all-time great" defense at the time.

2) Pau Gasol's impact was felt immediately to the Lakers front-court. Without Bynum here's how he limited some of the best PFs in the league during the Lakers 2008 run.

Martin: 42%
Boozer: 38%
Duncan: 42%
Garnett: 44%

So it was very consistent, he didn't just limit Garnett, but Duncan & Boozer played a horrendous series against the Lakers, and this is without Bynum ever being there.

3) Why no mention of passing? Garnett's one of the best passers in league history, especially out of both the high & low post, and considering he's had seasons where he's had 5 or 6 assists, do you know how incredibly hard it is to rack up that number for a big-man?

He consistently created plays and facilitated the offense from the post (incredibly hard, Malone had Stockton), and if you're going to compare peak forms of both players (2004), Garnett's very well just as good, if not better. Also why no consideration of defense? Garnett's one of the top 3 best defenders of our era, and with a legitimate cast anchored a historic defense.

[Fencer reregistered]

Recall that KG's teams didn't have a useful first-round pick for MANY years, because for most of those years they didn't have a pick at all.

The Joe Smith fiasco also cost his team one MLE signing.

This is the team that also traded for Mark Blount.

[pancakes3]

disingenuous factoids that i can't get my feeble mind over when considering KG:
- for his first 7 playoff series, he won a cumulative 7 games.
- only four 50+-win seasons with minny, 7 overall. dirk has 11. chuck has 8. Malone has 11.
- in his 3 deep playoff runs, he went from 24/15/4 (very impressive) to 20.5/10.5.3 (mildly impressive) to 15/7/2.5 (fairly unimpressive). that's it! 3 series where he hit double-digit games as a sample size...
- in comparison, DRob who entered the league 6 years older than KG to a crappier squad had 4 "deep" playoff pushes before Duncan arrived (7 overall) and had better numbers in those series - even if he did take a hit in production from the regular season.
- DRTGs (RS/PS):: KG (pre-Celtics): 100/100.6 KG(career): 99/99.5. Drob (pre-duncan): 97/101. Drob(career): 96/96

1 - i really dislike the "his production took a hit" argument, especially when the net results are ignored. Kidd's apg and fg% all took a hit in the postseason whereas billups' points, assists, and rebounds all rose yet nobody's making a case that kidd is better than billups... are they? if someone "shut down" DRob to 20/10 whereas KG "stepped his game up" to 20/10... does it really matter

Disingenuous? These "factoids" have all been addressed -- what about the explanations did you not find adequate?

maybe in the clutter that were previous threads which i may or may not have TL/DR-ed but i have yet to see adequate addressing in this thread. refresh me in short, dumbed down words?

-You really can't see how it's possible for one team to have more wins than another without having a better player?

breaking 60? yes. i can see that happening. i won't fault him for not topping 60. however, when it comes to the 11th best player of all time not being able to be 8+ games above .500 consistently, something is amiss. i mean, don't you expect guys like Iverson, Lebron, Wade, and to an extent even 'Melo to be able to get his team to 50 wins more often than not regardless of teammates?

-How on earth did David Robinson have a crappier team than Kevin Garnett? For someone who harps on teams so much, you have an *extremely* bizarre view of them.

going to a crappier team from the get go. KG went to a team with googs/rider/porter. DRob had terry cummings and a sophomore Rod Strickland.

-How are the "net results" ignored for Garnett? (I think they are ignored because his team's lost, which creates Losing Bias and a warped memory of all his great performances.) The difference, which has been explained in detail, is that it's hard to see David Robinson's impact outside the box score. His role is different. His teams were different. People played him different. Did you watch both of these guys closely throughout their career or are you just looking at a box?

different for sure. DRob would grab the board, get it to his guard. run the floor and either get transition baskets or post up. KG would grab the board, bring it up himself, nestle in at the elbow and initiate the offense. more or less...

my point is that people poo poo DRob by saying "oh he wilted in the playoffs" even though his post-shrink numbers in his deep playoff pushes are still around the 25/12/3 range. then someone, somewhere, says that KG "stepped up" in '08 and stepped his game up from 19/9 to 20/10 in the playoffs. it just seems like cherrypicking stats to back preconceived notions.