RealGM Top 100 List #19

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#41 » by drza » Thu Aug 4, 2011 7:25 pm

Dr Mufasa wrote:Just can't justify saying Pettit was better at basketball than Chuckles. Pettit was great at scoring due to bullying inside and outside range... Charles was even better at bullying his way to efficient points inside and could also hit outside shots. Volume and efficiency backs this up. Pettit was a great rebounder... Charles was just as good. Charles was clearly the most dynamic playmaker.

What would this debate look like if Russell was healthy all of the 58 Finals while Jordan went down in the 3rd quarter of G3 of the 93 Finals and proceeded to miss Games 4, 5 and play 20 minutes on a hobbled ankle in Game 6? What would it look like if you swapped Hagan and Kevin Johnson's starts to the series (KJ: G1 - 4/11 11 pts, G2 - 2/8 4 pts. Hagan - G1 - 11/21 31 pts, G2 - 10/18 37 pts)

I don't give more credit to the 58 Hawks than the 93 Suns. I think people ignore Russell's injury way too much when valuing that win. I don't know how much more value he should get for that title than Johnston's (56) and Schayes' (55) tbh


Good points, and what I was trying to point out in the last thread. Pettit was far enough ago that for him we often have very little to go by outside of the accolades, general stats/title and narrative. So the "won a title over Russell/huge game 7" narrative is an important part, for many, for why he rates so high. But a further look indicates that, to the best of the data I've seen so far's ability to discriminate, Pettit had similar postseason struggles at his peak as Robinson and Barkley appears much better at that aspect. Which punches a hole in the narrative/accolades argument, to me. And when you do that, with what's left, I'd prefer Barkley and Robinson.

In fact, we're at the point where I'd like to start seeing more DRob debates. While his postseason struggles might have taken him back from Dream/Duncan status, we're now out near the cusp of the top-20 and I don't think he should slight much further. If at all. While it looks like Pettit may win this thread, I'm pretty sure my vote is going to come down to Robinson vs Barkley.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#42 » by Laimbeer » Thu Aug 4, 2011 7:30 pm

@fatal

Not sure why you seem to dismiss Isiah's assist numbers and conclude for no particular reason Payton is a better player. Looks like your mind is fresher than mine having watched the playoff games recently, but in general he elevated while Payton didn't.

I think some people are too enamoured of Payton's D. It was great, but does it offset superior skills in leading a team and being a superior playoff performer?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#43 » by ElGee » Thu Aug 4, 2011 7:34 pm

Scottie Pippen peak play

First, Pippen did us a favor by missing 10 games in his Lone Wolf year, 1994. For those under the impression that Chicago wasn't a good defensive team, they would be wrong (All the Bulls teams of the 90s were well built defensively by that point, and in 1994 they replaced Jordan with defensively inclined Pete Myers and had role players like Will Perdue providing really strong interior defense.) In the 10 games Pippen missed early in the year, a time when defenses are typically a little ahead of offenses, Chicago played teams with an average Ortg of 105.8 and gave up 104.3 per 100 (-1.5). With Pippen, against the rest of the league (LA of 106.3) they gave up 102.6 (-3.7). In other words, if we buy that as some ballpark value, Pip's defense was worth about 2.2 SRS points, or roughly 6 wins, on a good defensive team with solid defensive bigs. That's with someone like Purdue out for half the year too. That's impressive to me, and I don't see much a difference between replacing Grant with an elite defensive player and adding Pippen. Yes, he was certainly the greatest perimeter defender I've ever seen and his impact encroaches on most bigs to me.

Digging deeper into Pippen's 1994 season as The Man, he increased his scoring role slightly. Not too much, as this was not Pip's forte, and he continued to play an unselfish facilitation (I think the parallels to KG there are good). For eg, Pip never went over 40 that season. He attempted over 27 shots once, in an overtime game no less. With Myers, Grant and Armstrong in the starting lineup with Pippen, Chicago went 44-14 (62-win pace) with a +4.7 MOV. Think about that.

His rebounding was incredible from the small forward position, posting a 13.3 TRB%, which is in the territory of a big man and 4.5% ahead of the average SF (according to a TrueLA study), which means Pippen accounted for an estimated 212 extra rebounds than expected. The 94 Bulls rocked a +309 rebounding differential (fantastic, for those unfamiliar with rebounding differentials).

The Playoffs

In the postseason, Chicago breezed through Cleveland, with Pippen playing the role of Mr. Everything. Signs of forcing it? 14 turnovers combined in G1 and G3. But this was a guy who had great floor balance in his game and decision-making and with a good coach/scheme like he had could be the focal point of a good/solid offense without a bipolar partner. In Pip's 72 games in 94, the Bulls offense was 106.5 (just above average) and 2.9 points/100 better than when he was out.

Then the famous Knicks series. The Hubert Davis series. The Hugh Hollins series. Call it what you will, but against an historically defense, Pippen struggled in the first few games. Not having Will Perdue literally could have been the difference too, I thought the series was that close (Chicago outscored New York by 8 pts in the 7 games). Some of this series is on youtube, so I caution people who forget the series or who weren't around at the time to avoid box score whoring here. Pip's defense was fantastic as usual and he was setting up teammates regularly from what I recall. In G1 in NY, he was 7-19, but I don't recall a sense of great struggle or anything – he just took a few extra shots because of how good the Knick D was and because Chicago really didn't have another player, outside of maybe Kukoc (18 min) who could get his own. Cartwright couldn't work against Ewing, and Armstrong needed picks or usually Pippen kick out. Chi still mustered 1.07 pts/pos. (Knicks gave up 0.98 during the year.)

In G2, foul trouble and a bad game for Pip. He fouled out, and the Bulls blew a 4th quarter lead, with Pip struggling down the stretch. Ewing had 26-9 on 84% TS. One thing I look for in players is bounce-back games – how they adjust to a strategy or defense or poor approach. In G3, Pip was quite good, with 20-7-4 59% TS helping catapult the Bulls to 1.27 pts/pos! (This was the Kukoc buzzer-beater game.) Pippen responded with an even bigger G4, flying all over the court and basically dominating the Knicks historic defense, a D that help Michael Jordan in serious check in the opening 3 games of the 93 ECF. Pip finished with 25-8-6 56% TS in 35 minutes and Chicago scored 1.12 pts/pos.

G5 was the Hubert Davis game, also on youtube, and was another beyond the box game from Pippen (23-4-4). The Knicks jumped out to a 15-4 run. Only Pippen answered with play after play - he knocked down back to back 3s and scored 12 points to spark a 15-3 counter-run, setting up 5 open scoring opportunities for teammates in the run. It was that type of leadership -- basically running a club, anchoring a defense and providing a veteran presence -- that seemed to be present year-round.

G6 was sort of a classic Pippen game. Only 5-16, but he was again flying all over the place on defense and the glass and finished with 4 steals, 2 blocks, 11 boards and 5 assists. Again, the Bulls score 1.04 pts/100. G7 the Knicks team proved to be too much, as Oakley and Ewing combined for 35 pts 37 reb and 10 ast. Pippen was creating, being active, finishing with 20 pts and 16 rebounds. One NYT piece described him as “sparkling in defeat,” although his offensive limitations were on display to a degree. I don't mean the 8-22, totally understandable in a game like that looking at the defense, his team and shot selection. I mean that he didn't score for the first 8+ minutes of the 4th as the Knicks slowly fortified their lead. That was Scottie in a nutshell: GOAT perimeter defender, could hugely impact a game outside the box, was a very good offensive player, but couldn't ramp up the scoring when needed. Of course, let's keep perspective here, he scored 26% of his team's points against a GOAT-level D without a No. 2 offensive thread.

And for the record, I think I'll take Payton's peak over Pippen's in a vacuum, but it's awfully close.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#44 » by Laimbeer » Thu Aug 4, 2011 7:35 pm

Dr Mufasa wrote:Pettit was great at scoring due to bullying inside and outside range...


I have seen very, very little of him - just some highlight reel type stuff - but his game struck me as closer to Dirk Nowitzki than Karl Malone.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#45 » by fatal9 » Thu Aug 4, 2011 7:46 pm

Laimbeer wrote:@fatal

Not sure why you seem to dismiss Isiah's assist numbers and conclude for no particular reason Payton is a better player. Looks like your mind is fresher than mine having watched the playoff games recently, but in general he elevated while Payton didn't.

I think some people are too enamoured of Payton's D. It was great, but does it offset superior skills in leading a team and being a superior playoff performer?

I'm not dismissing his assist numbers, he was a great passer/playmaker, but I'm just trying to provide context around his earlier, crazier numbers.

I think one good argument for Isiah is that the playoffs somewhat favor players like him. Not only the fact that he was great at individual offense/creating his own shot, or that he stepped up in many important moments, but that his hot/cold inconsistency is somewhat rewarded by playoff format. I sometimes think this way with Kobe too (though he's much more reliable offensively).

The goal is to win 4 games. If a player puts up say 20 ppg on 50% each game, I don't think in the playoffs he's necessarily better than a guy who might put up 12 points on poor shooting one game, and then put up 30 points on great shooting in the next one (including taking over in important stretches). Overall the inconsistent player might only shoot say 45% for the series and average the same number of points, but the fact that his "hot" performances were more dominant than a consistent players typical performance, can actually lift you into winning more games in a series. Basically, the consistent player can sometimes not "rise up" enough times to drive you to wins as the inconsistent jekyll/hyde player. I don't know if I described it well, but just one view of it. Does anyone else agree?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#46 » by penbeast0 » Thu Aug 4, 2011 7:54 pm

fatal9 wrote:. . .

For nominations right now, I'm deciding between Pippen, McHale, Drexler and Payton. I really want to nominate Walton soon because I consider his peak to be top 10 good, but have no idea what to do with him. In two short seasons he ended up doing what most guys didn't accomplish in their careers.


If you care about playoffs and winning titles, Walton had ONE season as a starter . . . period. He never made it to be healthy to the playoffs before or after that except as a reserve in Boston and that's hardly worth putting over great players who performed for 5+ years of stardom.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#47 » by ElGee » Thu Aug 4, 2011 8:07 pm

fatal9 wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:@fatal

Not sure why you seem to dismiss Isiah's assist numbers and conclude for no particular reason Payton is a better player. Looks like your mind is fresher than mine having watched the playoff games recently, but in general he elevated while Payton didn't.

I think some people are too enamoured of Payton's D. It was great, but does it offset superior skills in leading a team and being a superior playoff performer?

I'm not dismissing his assist numbers, he was a great passer/playmaker, but I'm just trying to provide context around his earlier, crazier numbers.

I think one good argument for Isiah is that the playoffs somewhat favor players like him. Not only the fact that he was great at individual offense/creating his own shot, or that he stepped up in many important moments, but that his hot/cold inconsistency is somewhat rewarded by playoff format. I sometimes think this way with Kobe too (though he's much more reliable offensively).

The goal is to win 4 games. If a player puts up say 20 ppg on 50% each game, I don't think in the playoffs he's necessarily better than a guy who might put up 12 points on poor shooting one game, and then put up 30 points on great shooting in the next one (including taking over in important stretches). Overall the inconsistent player might only shoot say 45% for the series and average the same number of points, but the fact that his "hot" performances were more dominant than a consistent players typical performance, can actually lift you into winning more games in a series. Basically, the consistent player can sometimes not "rise up" enough times to drive you to wins as the inconsistent jekyll/hyde player. I don't know if I described it well, but just one view of it. Does anyone else agree?


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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#48 » by penbeast0 » Thu Aug 4, 2011 8:08 pm

fatal9 wrote:
I think one good argument for Isiah is that the playoffs somewhat favor players like him. Not only the fact that he was great at individual offense/creating his own shot, or that he stepped up in many important moments, but that his hot/cold inconsistency is somewhat rewarded by playoff format. I sometimes think this way with Kobe too (though he's much more reliable offensively).

The goal is to win 4 games. If a player puts up say 20 ppg on 50% each game, I don't think in the playoffs he's necessarily better than a guy who might put up 12 points on poor shooting one game, and then put up 30 points on great shooting in the next one (including taking over in important stretches). Overall the inconsistent player might only shoot say 45% for the series and average the same number of points, but the fact that his "hot" performances were more dominant than a consistent players typical performance, can actually lift you into winning more games in a series. Basically, the consistent player can sometimes not "rise up" enough times to drive you to wins as the inconsistent jekyll/hyde player. I don't know if I described it well, but just one view of it. Does anyone else agree?


I think the inconsistent but explosive player helps pull off upsets . . . Baron Davis getting hot and GS beating Dallas for example, but a hot and cold player with below average efficiency shoots you out of more games than he shoots you into so . . . if you are the better team, you lose more games that you otherwise should have won. Now if you are ENOUGH better, you can still win and you can be hot for enough games to make a historic run sometimes (Rick Barry?). But generally, if you are the best team in the league, consistent scoring (and defense which seems to be more consistent for top teams) is better than hot and cold explosiveness.

This can be seen for Gary Payton in the upset loss to Denver too. Seattle's hot and cold player was Shawn Kemp and while Payton shot .493 and pretty much played his normal series, Kemp was totally intimidated by Mutombo and shot .375 for the series. Thus the #1 seed lost to the #8.

Note: the backpicks article ElGee sites seems to say much the same thing.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#49 » by lorak » Thu Aug 4, 2011 8:36 pm

vote: Robinson
nomination: Pippen
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#50 » by fatal9 » Thu Aug 4, 2011 8:38 pm

The trend I see in elgee's blog is being good teams are hurt by high variance players (variance was the word I was looking for by the way lol), interesting, though somewhat expected. I think Pistons/Isiah are a bit more of a unique case. He was doing it on far less volume than guys like Wade/James/MJ/Kobe and he nor most guys in the range were doing as much offensively as those guys. Comparing him more to say a 17 ppg consistent PG like a Stockton, not those 30 ppg, 20+ shot guys whose scoring makes up for a far greater portion of the offense. So his lows weren't as low, highs weren't as high, and Pistons could do a good job in masking his weakness due to the number of scoring options they had. But if I'm going to say that, then Isiah basically becomes a player who is super valuable on only very specific types of contending teams and that makes him hard to build around.

I'm just going by what I saw in those playoff games though. It's a double edged sword for sure though, very hard to judge.

Overall I agree with you guys (curious to know where you guys rank him), I'm still five players away from even considering him, but just providing a possible argument in his case other than the typical "he beat players x y and z".
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#51 » by fatal9 » Thu Aug 4, 2011 8:43 pm

also, fast forward to 1:13:00 if you have 15 minutes to watch Barkley at his best. so many big performances by him in dire moments that year.

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#52 » by drza » Thu Aug 4, 2011 8:57 pm

ElGee wrote:Vote: Charles Barkley
Nominate: Scottie Pippen

Pippen v Payton
As for the nomination, Scottie Pippen is a functional PG to me. When I build teams ATL style, Pippen finds his way on to a LOT of teams because of his lack of need for shots coupled with his ability to initiate offenses/distribute and GOAT perimeter defense and versatility. It means you can pair him 2 other wings as Chicago did with Harp and Jordan and just crush people defensively. (Small, quick PG's excluded, but has anyone noticed that NO ONE can stop those players?)

...


Some good points, here. Pippen's offensive impact was similar to a point guard, but his defensive impact was as close to big-man caliber as a wing could get. All-in-all, those are two high-impact aspects of his game that the box scores just can't capture well.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#53 » by Baller 24 » Thu Aug 4, 2011 8:58 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
fatal9 wrote:. . .

For nominations right now, I'm deciding between Pippen, McHale, Drexler and Payton. I really want to nominate Walton soon because I consider his peak to be top 10 good, but have no idea what to do with him. In two short seasons he ended up doing what most guys didn't accomplish in their careers.


If you care about playoffs and winning titles, Walton had ONE season as a starter . . . period. He never made it to be healthy to the playoffs before or after that except as a reserve in Boston and that's hardly worth putting over great players who performed for 5+ years of stardom.


Agreed, but that one season where he had it flowing from all angles is one for the ages. I'll say this though, if Walton never had an injury problem, we might even be looking at a KAJ's legacy in a very different context, our entire top 10 line-up would have been shifted, we might even be seeing a new GOAT center for all we know. It's very hard to say that about a lot of injury riddled players. And if we're valuing his peak in terms of how great of a basketball player he really is, he's got a top 10 peak alone, with the injury issues I'd easily say it very well pushes him back to be worthy of being placed in the 30s.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#54 » by penbeast0 » Thu Aug 4, 2011 10:00 pm

Let's take a look at them during their top periods at 5 year peaks (not top stats but when their teams were at their best since the narrative for Isiah Thomas is based on his big game performances). For Seattle, that's 94-98, 5 years with an SRS over 6 which include Payton's two big playoff upsets where the Sonics were beaten by Denver and LA (though Shaq getting healthy again makes the LA loss less strange) but also their only finals appearance during Payton's tenure. Oddly enough, it doesn't include ANY of his top 4 PER seasons which were 99-2002

For Detroit, that's 87-91, which, oddly enough, also don't include Isiah's top 4 PER seasons which ran from 83-86. These were the year for both of them where they stepped back from the "gotta do everything myself" role and let the talented players around them shine as well. Teamwise, the Sonics were easily the better regular season team with an average SRS higher than the best of the Detroit teams but postseason the Pistons stepped it up while the Sonics slipped back.

Payton - Min Reb Ast St To Pts ts% (Team Pace, league efg, def rating)
1993-94 35.1 3.3 6.0 2.3 2.1 16.5 .526 (95.1, .485, 101.5)
1994-95 36.8 3.4 7.1 2.5 2.5 20.6 .564 (95.0, .500, 106.3)
1995-96 39.0 4.2 7.5 2.9 3.2 19.3 .554 (93.8, .499, 102.1)
1996-97 39.2 4.6 7.1 2.4 2.6 21.8 .545 (90.3, .493, 102.7)
1997-98 38.4 4.6 8.3 2.3 2.8 19.2 .544 (89.8, .478, 103.6)

Playoffs Min Reb Ast Pts
1993-94 36.2 3.4 5.6 15.8 .
1994-95 43.0 2.5 5.3 17.8 .
1995-96 43.4 5.1 6.8 20.7 .
1996-97 45.5 5.4 8.7 23.8 .
1997-98 42.8 3.4 7.0 24.0 .
5 Year Playoff ts% .546 (# of games vary by year)

Thomas - Min Reb Ast St To Pts ts% (Team Pace, league efg, def rating)
1986-87 37.2 3.9 10.0 1.9 4.2 20.6 .528 (101.0, .488, 105.8)
1987-88 36.1 3.4 8.4 1.7 3.4 19.5 .521 (98.3, .489, 105.3)
1988-89 36.6 3.4 8.3 1.7 3.7 18.2 .528 (95.5, .489, 104.7)
1989-90 37.0 3.8 9.4 1.7 4.0 18.4 .501 (94.4, .489, 103.5)
1990-91 34.5 3.3 9.3 1.6 3.9 16.2 .507 (91.9, .487, 104.6)

Playoffs Min Reb Ast Pts
1986-87 37.5 4.5 8.7 24.1
1987-88 39.6 4.7 8.7 21.9
1988-89 37.2 4.3 8.3 18.2
1989-90 37.9 5.5 8.2 20.5
1990-91 33.5 4.2 8.5 13.5
5 Year Playoff ts% .518

A few things to note. Payton was actually the better scorer during these prime seasons. The turnover differential between Payton and Isiah is pretty huge; Isiah is getting more assists but committing a lot more turnovers for a lower assist/turnover ratio; Is The league was slightly but not significantly more efficient in Payton’s era and a bit more but again, not a huge amount faster paced in Isiah’s.

The playoff efficiency during their peaks goes to Payton by an even greater margin than in the regular season – it was his ring chaser years past prime that brought it down. And, Seattle is even a better defensive team than Detroit and it’s hard to believe that this is true because Donaldson/Kemp/Perkins were better than Laimbeer/Rodman/Salley/etc. Payton’s defense shows up strongly in team defensive numbers (I don’t have them for the playoffs)

I think looking more closely at the peak years of the franchise makes the case for Payton again . . . unless you are just counting rings.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#55 » by ThaRegul8r » Thu Aug 4, 2011 10:04 pm

Dr Mufasa wrote:Just can't justify saying Pettit was better at basketball than Chuckles. Pettit was great at scoring due to bullying inside and outside range... Charles was even better at bullying his way to efficient points inside and could also hit outside shots. Volume and efficiency backs this up. Pettit was a great rebounder... Charles was just as good. Charles was clearly the most dynamic playmaker.

What would this debate look like if Russell was healthy all of the 58 Finals while Jordan went down in the 3rd quarter of G3 of the 93 Finals and proceeded to miss Games 4, 5 and play 20 minutes on a hobbled ankle in Game 6? What would it look like if you swapped Hagan and Kevin Johnson's starts to the series (KJ: G1 - 4/11 11 pts, G2 - 2/8 4 pts. Hagan - G1 - 11/21 31 pts, G2 - 10/18 37 pts)

I don't give more credit to the 58 Hawks than the 93 Suns. I think people ignore Russell's injury way too much when valuing that win. I don't know how much more value he should get for that title than Johnston's (56) and Schayes' (55) tbh


ST. LOUIS (AP)—Boston’s chances in the National Basketball Assn. championship playoffs well may rest on how quickly Bill Russell can recover from an ankle injury.

The 6-10 Russell injured his ankle last night in the third game of the series between Boston’s Celtics and the St. Louis Hawks. St. Louis won the game 111-108.

Russell was removed from the game and taken to Jewish Hospital. X-rays showed his ankle was badly sprained.

Dr. Stan London said, “We’ll start working on it first thing in the morning.”

He said Russell “might be ready for Saturday and probably will be in the game” April 9 at Boston.

Russell hurt the ankle when he came down on it hard in the third quarter.

Last night’s game put the Hawks ahead 2-1 in the best of seven series.



BOSTON (UP) — Rebounding ace Bill Russell of the Boston Celtics Monday was declared out for the rest of the National Basketball Assn. championship playoffs with the St. Louis Hawks because of a severely sprained right ankle.

Dr. Edward R. Browne, Celtics team physician, said, “Russell is out for the rest of the year. We’re continuing to work on him but I doubt if he would be available within the next three weeks.”

The 6-10 Russell, who holds every rebounding record available in the NBA, injured the ankle last week at St. Louis. X-rays viewed Monday showed a “small chip fracture” inside the ankle in addition to torn tendons inside and outside the ankle.



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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#56 » by penbeast0 » Thu Aug 4, 2011 10:24 pm

But you also can't call Pettit a playoff choker (which you otherwise could) when he singlehandedly took over the game -- Russell or no Russell -- Pettit did, not Cliff "Mr. Playoff" Hagan, not Ed Macauley or Chuck Share who were Atlanta's centers, but Pettit.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#57 » by colts18 » Thu Aug 4, 2011 10:28 pm

The more i look at Pippen the more I think he had top 10 defensive impact. I am 95% sure he had more defensive impact in the 90's than MJ. Just look at the stats. Maybe 80's MJ had more impact but it's hard to tell because of the lack of stats and he only missed significant time pre-prime.

Pippen might be an even better defender today because he could play his illegal defense that he did effectively without worrying that the refs would call it. Though he probably benefited from handchecking.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#58 » by ronnymac2 » Thu Aug 4, 2011 10:29 pm

Dwyane Wade deserves more mention here. He is perhaps the best peak player here.

I'm probably voting for Charles. He was a championship-caliber offensive anchor. He just didn't win a title. Not his fault.

Too many Pettit votes citing the title and MVPs.

As for the nomination...Probably going for Isiah. Drexler is likely next.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#59 » by Sedale Threatt » Thu Aug 4, 2011 10:32 pm

colts18 wrote:The more i look at Pippen the more I think he had top 10 defensive impact. I am 95% sure he had more defensive impact in the 90's than MJ. Just look at the stats. Maybe 80's MJ had more impact but it's hard to tell because of the lack of stats and he only missed significant time pre-prime.

Pippen might be an even better defender today because he could play his illegal defense that he did effectively without worrying that the refs would call it. Though he probably benefited from handchecking.


Pippen was a great defensive player. I'd easily buy him as having more impact than Jordan.

This is going to sound like ridiculous hyperbole, but with a consistent jumper, he might have been virtually flawless.

The aforementioned defensive prowess, freakish athlete, the ability to handle and distribute the ball, solid rebounder...he had so many strengths.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #19 

Post#60 » by therealbig3 » Fri Aug 5, 2011 12:38 am

I think Pettit and Isiah are getting way overrated here.

Vote: Barkley
Nominate: Pippen

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