does shaq have a case for #2 GOAT

[Die93]

hell no, hes top ten and maybe top 5 but no way is the GOAT. His only argument is his peak which is overrated because he had no competetion at the center position nd 00-02 is the worst era for centers in history. He also was never elite defensively cant hit free throws and has played with more individual talent then anyone in the history of the game.

Prime

Penny
Kobe
wade
lebron
nash
With the last 4 of those guys potentually top 25 Players of all time

To only come out with 4 titles is kindoff dissapointing, he shoulve been WAY better then he was. He had the talent to be the GOAT defender but laziness and not working hard got in the way.

Hes definitely better then Wilt especially the Overrated Bill Russell but hes not better then Hakeem or Kareem.

His 2000 Season(while overrated) is a top 3 season of all time tho

[Die93]

I dont really mind you playing for different teams but you playing on 5,6,7 teams is a problem. Especially the ring chasing he did 08-11. (he shouldve retired after the 06 season)
Also when everytime you leave a place you leave on a bad note its an idication of your character.

[Die93]

And at carrying a franchise to 3 Rings. Tim Duncan CARRIED the spurs to a ring in 03, Hakeem CARRIED the Rox to a ring in 94, Shaq never carried anyone, especiialy if you have another 30 PPG Scorer on your team.

[Mamba Venom]

Karreem, Magic and Russell are clearly better.

[GrandTheftRondo]

No because no one is touching Wilt and Bill.

[MarJJMar]

Karreem, Magic and Russell are clearly better.

Magic is not.

[MarJJMar]

And at carrying a franchise to 3 Rings. Tim Duncan CARRIED the spurs to a ring in 03, Hakeem CARRIED the Rox to a ring in 94, Shaq never carried anyone, especiialy if you have another 30 PPG Scorer on your team.

LOL!

And that 30ppg scorer was at best a first round exit or lottery team with Butler and Odom instead of Shaq.
So yes Shaq absolutely carried that team.

[doctorfunk]

idc about stats(other than contemporary) and accolades

Skillwise there's only Hakeem who has a case of being better center than Shaq. To me 2000-2002 Shaq may have been the GOAT. Shaq to me is EASILY top5 player. Atm I rate him top2. Neither Russell or Wilt were as good as Shaq it's enough to see some Wilt tape to see that. You may say Shaq is raw compared to Hakeem. Wilt is raw compared to Shaq. And while Wilt was a great athlete he was at best equal to Shaq athletically.

And at carrying a franchise to 3 Rings. Tim Duncan CARRIED the spurs to a ring in 03, Hakeem CARRIED the Rox to a ring in 94, Shaq never carried anyone, especially if you have another 30 PPG Scorer on your team.

dumbest post of the day

[Die93]

And at carrying a franchise to 3 Rings. Tim Duncan CARRIED the spurs to a ring in 03, Hakeem CARRIED the Rox to a ring in 94, Shaq never carried anyone, especiialy if you have another 30 PPG Scorer on your team.

LOL!

And that 30ppg scorer was at best a first round exit or lottery team with Butler and Odom instead of Shaq.
So yes Shaq absolutely carried that team.

Um that 30 PPG scorer is a 2 time NBA champion and back to back finals MVP without shaq so idk WTF your talking about

2001 playoffs
shaq 30.4 ppg
kobe 29.4 ppg
1.0 ppg difference

2002 playoffs
shaq 28.5 ppg
kobe 26.6 ppg
1.9 ppg difference

Thats carrying the team when someone else is scoring almost the same amount as you are?

Andshaq was swept 5 times in the 90's without that other 30PPG scorer so there goes that logic....

[Masigond]

Kareem's and Walton's skills (fundamentals) were better than Shaq's. They just hadn't his brute force, and that's the reason why Shaq did not have to develop his skills just as much.

Ranking the best players of all time depends on your personal preferences. In terms of individual dominance Shaq is a top 2 player that only Jordan could rival (and as he did it over a longer period of time I'd rank him 1st and Shaq 2nd). Maybe some would add Wilt here, but I think that he did not really get what to do best to make his team win.

My GOAT list looks like this:
First tier: Jordan, Kareem, Russell (I don't care that much for offensive stats - he made his Celtics win big, and that's all that matters)
Only slightly behind them: Magic, Shaq
Again only slightly behind: Bird (only due to his injury-ridden last years - otherwise I'd rank him on the same level as Magic), Duncan and Wilt

[Die93]

idc about stats(other than contemporary) and accolades

Skillwise there's only Hakeem who has a case of being better center than Shaq. To me 2000-2002 Shaq may have been the GOAT. Shaq to me is EASILY top5 player. Atm I rate him top2. Neither Russell or Wilt were as good as Shaq it's enough to see some Wilt tape to see that. You may say Shaq is raw compared to Hakeem. Wilt is raw compared to Shaq. And while Wilt was a great athlete he was at best equal to Shaq athletically.

And at carrying a franchise to 3 Rings. Tim Duncan CARRIED the spurs to a ring in 03, Hakeem CARRIED the Rox to a ring in 94, Shaq never carried anyone, especially if you have another 30 PPG Scorer on your team.

dumbest post of the day

2001 playoffs
shaq 30.4 ppg
kobe 29.4 ppg
1.0 ppg difference

2002 playoffs
shaq 28.5 ppg
kobe 26.6 ppg
1.9 ppg difference

Huh? thas carrying a team when someone is scoring almost the same amount as you?

[Die93]

No because no one is touching Wilt and Bill.

How is wilt or even russell better then Shaq?

[doctorfunk]

Huh? thas carrying a team when someone is scoring almost the same amount as you?

First of all Shaq was CLEAR no1 option on that team. He was sole reason why this team was to finals 4 in 5 straight years. Also he played great in all these finals. Kobe's performances in 2000/2001 and 2004 finals are best described as forgettable. Also that Lakers team until 2007 sucked major balls after Shaq left. I know Kobe is a great player but he was nowhere near Shaq level. It's same as Jordan and Pippen. Bulls without Jordan at least made ECF, Lakers didn't make PO. Jordan had one of best teams behind him, still he did carry them offensively, same for Shaq and Lakers. Kobe holds his own with his great lakers squad of 2009 and 2010 but in Lakers he wasn't Shaq's equal NO WAY.

Also sometimes you have a great player and side-kick or great player+good role players. In the first case does it mean the main guy deserves less credit? Is 2nd championship with Clyde less impressive feat for Hakeem and means he did not carry that Rockets squad?

NOBODY not even mj, shaq or hakeem can win on their own in 5on5 game. Having good support doesn't mean they didn't carry their respective teams though.

[34Dayz]

Shaq has a strong case for #2, his offensive ability and ability to utilize his strength and power game to the fullest was truly impressive. Defensively he was great in his young years and amazing from 00-02 when he worked his butt off on that side of the floor, I dont think many two way Centers were better then him when it came to defensive impact other then maybe Hakeem and Duncan has a case also.

@Die93 : Why do you bring up Kobe in a thread unrelated to him? Anyway those early LA teams won and lost on the back of Shaqs dominance and it was clear he was the leader of those teams. He was the one anchoring the offense and the defense for the Lakers and was clearly the best player in the league by far those years, so as great as Bryant was (in 01, and 02) he was never in Shaqs league (no one was) That is not denying Bryants greatness but there is much more to the game then just PPG your not looking at it in the correct context, even if there PPG was close their impact was not. Only Prime Jordan had a few seasons on par with what Shaq did those years. Like Doc said he was Pippen to Shaqs Jordan, Pippen was great on his own but it was crystal clear who the best player on those teams were.

Anyway like I always say Championships are often a product of luck and timing, if you get the right supporting cast and play at the right time you win if not you don't. Based on his Basketball Ability and impact on the offensive and defensive end combined I have him ranked only behind Jordan but I can understand people who rank him 5-7 and if you consider Accolades and Championships when ranking players he probably wouldn't be higher then 4 or 5.

[pancakes3]

Shaq has a strong case for #2, his offensive ability and ability to utilize his strength and power game to the fullest was truly impressive. Defensively he was great in his young years and amazing from 00-02 when he worked his butt off on that side of the floor, I dont think many two way Centers were better then him when it came to defensive impact other then maybe Hakeem and Duncan has a case also.

David Robinson was a 2-way center with better defensive impact.
Patrick Ewing was a 2-way center with better defensive impact.
Moses Malone was a 2-way center with equal defensive impact.
KAJ was a 2-way center with better defensive impact.
Wilt was a 2-way center with better defensive impact

in addition to Hakeem and Duncan, there's 7 guys there with >= defensive impact while still producing offensively. how am i determining defensive impact? Drtgs, team Drtgs, all-d team nods, drb%'s, etc.

really, you can't use "defense" or even "2-way" as an argument for Shaq being the best center of all time. if a case were to be made it has to come strictly from the 3-year peak of '00-'02 where he was dominant offensively, and played in 65+ games (which he has done only 10x in his 19 year career).

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and re: pace adjust, a quick and dirty way to look at pace (there weren't possession stats kept back in the 60s-70s) is to compare the fga's. The Lakers in Shaq's .3peat run shot roughly 3/4 of the Warriors. So... 50 ppg 18rpg adjusts to roughly 37/18. later on in his career like when he went back to philly, the fga's had deflated to the lakers shooting 85% of what the sixers shot, which remained the same throughout the 70's. you take that and compare it to the 80's where we DO have possession numbers and Magic's rookie year, based on fga's we have a % of 92 based on fga's and a % of 89 when looking at pace.

his career numbers of 30/23 using an 80% pace conversion would translate to 24/18.5 complete with 4.4 assist/game. assists aren't pace adjusted because it's accepted that assists were given out rather stingily back then and that across the eras, the numbers compare rather constantly. passes like kick-outs weren't considered assists. things like interior passes leading to layups or outlet passes would count... etc.

[34Dayz]

David Robinson was a 2-way center with better defensive impact.
Patrick Ewing was a 2-way center with better defensive impact.
Moses Malone was a 2-way center with equal defensive impact.
KAJ was a 2-way center with better defensive impact.
Wilt was a 2-way center with better defensive impact

DRob / Ewing / Moses = Arent on Shaqs Tier
Moses, KAJ and imo (Ewing) = Arent as good as Young/Prime Shaq defensively
Wilt/DRob = Mentally weak and Play worse in the Post Season.
Wilt = Vastly different Era and Competition ridiculous to assume he could average 30/18/4 in todays league.
Duncan = About equal to Shaq in terms of defensive impact or only slighty better while Shaq is the far better offensive force.
Hakeem = Same as Duncan except better defensively.

Shaq = Best C All-Time.

[MacGill]

To me, no he doesn't and if I am evaluating not based on who my favorite players are and going by more than peak, dominance etc Shaq has a case to replace Wilt on the all-time lists and a spot at #5.

MJ - nothing needs to be said about this

Magic - Don't think anything has to be said about him as well

KAJ - hate him as a player/personality but he dominated the game in a different fashion than Shaq and ultimately was a higher producer for a longer time period of his career.

Russell - I have a new found respect for Bill especially after the RPOY & Top 100 lists and while I think Shaq would personally crush him, winning is winning, and him being able to anchor those teams defensively while becoming the greatest winner ever, speaks volumes. In a team game, a well oiled starting 5 could beat a most dominant 2 player starting 5.

After this, I am comfortable with Shaq.

[pancakes3]

DRob / Ewing / Moses = Arent on Shaqs Tier

offensively, yes. defensively? DRob and Ewing are above shaq's "tier" defensively

Moses, KAJ and imo (Ewing) = Arent as good as Young/Prime Shaq defensively

False by looking at DRtg/pace (points allowed per 100 possessions), DRankings, DRb%'s, etc. plus you're using that "let's only look at 5 disjoint seasons out of 19" logic again.

Wilt/DRob = Mentally weak and Play worse in the Post Season.

you mean like how Shaq averaged 29ppg in '94 and '95's regular season but only 25 ppg in the postseason? or that his fg% dropped in each of his lakers 3peat years? because those are the type of cherrypicking numbers that people nitpick Wilt/Drob for. Never mind that Wilt's rebounds went up in the playoffs. Never mind that DRob's did as well. i think looking at the marginal differences between the RS and the PS instead of looking at the net production is one of the most disingenuous arguments ever against a player. you're essentially comparing that player against himself, looking for an illogical statistical anomaly and trying to pin something that can't be measured - clutchness, other intangibles - to it.

Wilt = Vastly different Era and Competition ridiculous to assume he could average 30/18/4 in todays league.

i just provided pace adjust numbers. i think it's ignorant though to say that the legends of the past - Russell, Wilt, Thurmond, Bellamy, etc. just aren't as good players. Wilt was pulling down 19 rebounds a game in 1973 and he's still grabbing 2 more rebounds than the next closest guy. This is in an era with Kareem, Cowens, and Unseld, Why wouldn't Wilt's numbers translate? In what year does the leap forward take place? why?

Duncan = About equal to Shaq in terms of defensive impact or only slighty better while Shaq is the far better offensive force.

you're delusional if you think Duncan and Shaq are "about equal" in defensive impact. Nothing corroborates that opinoin. Shaq was never a great defender even when he put his mind to it. he was merely "good" during his peak '00-'02 seasons. I'll grant you the offensive impact since Shaq for those lone 3 years was an awesome 30ppg go-to scorer but it's not the leg up you think it is.

Hakeem = Same as Duncan except better defensively.

Hakeem at his peak was a better player on both ends of the court.

Shaq = Best C All-Time.

well if you're going to use arbitrary cherrypicked qualifiers, others can easily retort and say he was often hurt (wilt played in 6 less seasons and has 2 MORE seasons' worth of minutes played), a defensive lateral move for much of his career, underwhelming rebounder (especially defensively), and really gets more credit on the offensive side than he deserves because every time he dipped his shoulder it should have been whistled as an offensive foul (much like how every time Iverson dribbled it was a carry).

again, like i said in my original post - for the 3-peat seasons Shaq has a half-decent case but if you put his career under scrutiny? his 19 year career? his 19 year career where there was a noticeable "perfect storm" of peaking when the position was in transition and he was inordinately healthy? he gets to shoot past other players with a longer sustained prime because of a few peak years? well shoot by that logic, Walton has a case to be a top 5 C's of all time too then. McAdoo a better case. Bellamy as well.

For that matter, Tiny Archibald has a case against Magic for being the GOAT pg, TMac has a case for being 1b next to Jordan, Grandmama is no worse than pippen, mcdyess is duncan 2.0 and in addition to Walton, McAdoo, and Bellamy, Yao needs to plead his case for the top 10.

**DISCLAIMER** - i'm not ruling out the fact that Shaq doesn't have a case for #2 GOAT. I'm just saying if he does, it's a limited one and that you as one of the minority voices who thinks he's the overwhelming GOAT, aren't making too convincing a case to convince me (and others) otherwise.

[Vincent 666]

No. Shaqs glaring flaw as go to player in the clutch because of his poor free throw shooting prevents him from being placed so high.

Hes 6th on my all time list and if it wasnt for that deficiency, he would be 1 and 1a with Jordan.

[Saciid11]

If you look at stats, achievement, awards ...no, but if you look at impact, dominance then yes and I even go as far as say Shaq had more impact on the game in his prime then Jordan. But anyway I would rank Shaq behind only Jordan and Kareem .

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Russel
6. Magic
7. Hakeem