RealGM Top 100 List #23

[GrangerDanger]

World B Free was also a pretty damn good iso scorer

[lorak]

Calvin Muprhy - Iverson before Iverson.

[Gongxi]

Lots of good arguments, I really don't know how to fall here. Since I'm being worked to the bone out here, I hate that I can't weigh in with arguments, so I pride myself in fully reading and considering all the positions people give here. And I still can't decide. Just wanted to say that, I'll probably vote in a couple of hours.

[ElGee]

@andrewww - I have Pierce and McGrady way ahead on career value. I'd probably give a slight edge to Pierce right now.

@TMACFORMVP - I've tried to watch a bunch of youtube highlights available from 05 for Houston. What I've glimpsed was a team that was much more cohesive than I remember by the playoffs, with Wesley and Barry providing key shooting. I remember Juwan Howard's injury actually being an issue too. And I forgot Houston had G3 at home to go up 3-0 and Dallas ripped off an 18-0 run.

Now, I wont hold it against a player too much if he adapts at the beginning of the season, although that is how he played so I won't totally ignore it. But you make a great point -- it's inescapable to me that Houston was 31-10 with Ming - Howard/Spoon - McGrady - Sura - Wesley. Curious, I crunched the numbers and they were +6.9 MOV team in the half season with that lineup, and just +1.2 with all other lineups.

How do I interpret that at a distance? Well, I give the role players credit, as I think guys like James and Barry (and Wesley and Sura) played well, and provided shooters. They managed to outscore Dallas 62-60 in the 34 minutes Mac didn't play in the PS so they weren't a helpless bunch. JVG is a coach I respect immensely as well. But if you look at a power team with a bipolar structure (Ming+McGrady), and they drop a 7 SRS, you think "those two superstars are doing something VERY right."

The difference pre new-year and post-new year seems to be on offense, probably from the shooting changes. But how did McGrady's play look after the new year?

Good lineup: 26.5 ppg 6.1 rpg 5.4 apg 53.0% TS 2.6 TOV 1.9 stl 19.5 GmSc
Other 7 g: 24.6 ppg 6.3 rpg 5.3 apg 51.9% TS 2.3 TOV 1.9 stl 17.7 GmSc

As we would expect, nicer numbers with nicer role players around. And viewing the team offensive performance, assuming a constant 88.8 pace, that lineup had a 111.5 ORtg and the other lineups 100.8. Huge shift.

All in and all, I think there is merit in what you're saying about this being a year that is comparable to say, 04 from McGrady. I think it was probably a little underrated at the time (well, 7th in MVP is good) and certainly has been totally swept under the rug historically. Anyone remember the end of G2? I doubt it.

[Doctor MJ]

So, Vote: Nash

Tough call between him and Frazier.

The thing is in the end, I don't rate Frazier's peak higher than Nash, and really at this point, you've got to give Nash the longevity edge.

In the past I've tended to give Frazier the nod because he was actually a part of a team that broke through and won titles...but you know I just don't think there was anything fundamental stopping Nash from doing that either. The Suns defense could have been better with Nash than it was, and indeed in '05-06 with Kurt Thomas, it was quite solid. Turmoil in the Suns organization through bad luck and bad management limited opportunities for a true title run, but the whole time Nash continued to have impact like a light switch on a level that I kind of doubt Frazier ever had. There's context required there - it's hard to have a team fall apart without you when you have a coach as good at adjusting on the fly as Red, and smart teammates, but still, if I need to give Frazier a clear peak nod, to give him the overall nod, there's just not enough there.

[Gongxi]

Really tough decision between Ewing, Baylor, Nash, and Frazier. If you put a gun to my head, I vote Nash. I don't feel really comfortable with it, but it's a lot like that 10-14 slots where basically any of them could fit in at any of those positions and it doesn't feel like a travesty.

As far as the nomination goes, it's between Payton, Kidd, Cowens, Dwight, and Zo. I'm not prepared to go Pierce yet, although I could be convinced to consider him among that group in the future.

There's some names I want to throw out there to get people thinking about when it comes to nominations, but it feels as if we're so all over the place as is that muddling it up even more will result in even less of a 'mandate' when it comes to these things. But **** it: Hill, McAdoo, McHale, and even McGrady, Archibald, Nique, and even Chris Webber (so many injuries, though) should start to come up in conversation.

Nomination? Bleh. I'll go Cowens.

[colts18]

I don't really see the argument Pierce has over McGrady. McGrady had a much better peak. Plus he averaged 29-7-6 in the playoffs for his career.

[penbeast0]

With all the love for Dave Cowens, sort of surprised no one has mentioned Dwight Howard or Alonzo Mourning yet.

[Laimbeer]

Hi all, back from vacation.

This ends tonight? Does anybody have a count?

[andrewww]

chris mullin for nomination down the road anyone? the man was playing out of his mind around the original dream team era as part of the run TMC offense on golden state.

[penbeast0]

VOTE:

Elgin Baylor – FJS, JordansBulls

Walt Frazier – Jerky Way, penbeast0, Snakebites, mysticbb. Baller24, TMACFORMVP

Steve Nash – Dr Mufasa, ElGee, Fencer reregistered, David Stern, Gongxi, Doctor MJ

John Havlicek -- lukekarts

NOMINATION:

Clyde Drexler – Jerky Way, JordansBulls

Gary Payton – penbeast0, ElGee, Snakebites, mysticbb, Baller24, TMACFORMVP

Paul Pierce – therealbig3, Fencer reregistered

Dave Cowens – Dr Mufasa, David Stern, Gongxi

Willis Reed -- lukekarts

[Laimbeer]

Though I'd be tempted to select Baylor and Isiah should be getting consideration, it looks like it's coming down to Clyde and Nash. I really don't like Nash at this level much more than Gervin. Clyde is a more reasonable choice, but it still feels a little high for him.

Cowens' titles get totally forgotten and disrespected here (including by me, the ultimate title whore). Of those that might have a shot at Payton, I like him.

Vote: Walt Frazier
Nominate: Dave Cowens

[Fencer reregistered]

I'll flip my nomination from Paul Pierce to Dave Cowens based on how the vote is going.

Good point above re Bird as an iso scorer. A lot like Pierce, actually. I'd put Pierce over him just in that, however, whereas Bird is far superior to Pierce at the older style of getting a ball in traffic and throwing it quickly into the hoop without having the time to align your body.

And yes, the iso scorers I was missing included ones who got away from their man and pulled up for jumper or runner. It's possible those guys are harder to defend than the ones who want to finish at the rim (and hence may be easier to pack defenses against).

[ronnymac2]

In a rush...read it all though...

Vote: Walt Frazier

Nominate: Clyde Drexler


I think Frazier's individual offense gets underrated. I kind of think Ewing should go here. Or Nash. Meh...

Clydes are popular with me today...

[fatal9]

Vote: Steve Nash
Nominate: Kevin McHale

[penbeast0]

10P has come to the East and it looks like Walt Frazier and Gary Payton, both in close contests.

VOTE:

(8) Walt Frazier – Jerky Way, penbeast0, Snakebites, mysticbb. Baller24, TMACFORMVP, Laimbeer, ronnymac2

(7) Steve Nash – Dr Mufasa, ElGee, Fencer reregistered, David Stern, Gongxi, Doctor MJ, fatal9

(2) Elgin Baylor – FJS, JordansBulls

(1) John Havlicek -- lukekarts

NOMINATION:

6 - Gary Payton – penbeast0, ElGee, Snakebites, mysticbb, Baller24, TMACFORMVP

5 - Dave Cowens – Dr Mufasa, David Stern, Gongxi, Laimbeer, Fencer reregistered

3 - Clyde Drexler – Jerky Way, JordansBulls, ronnymac2

1 - Paul Pierce – therealbig3

1 - Willis Reed – lukekarts

1 - Kevin McHale – fatal9

[lorak]

penbeast0,
I think your nominations count is wrong. mysticbb on Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:06 am
nominated Kidd, not Payton. So we have tie.

[penbeast0]

Bleep. We have gone through a full day of debate with Payton out of the nomination picture; if it was the vote I'd redo the next thread but by the time Payton starts getting votes, Cowens will also be nominated and it won't matter -- thanks for checking though DS.