TMACFORMVP wrote:Re: Dr. Mufasa, while I don't agree with you about McGrady's particular place in this project, I couldn't agree with you more about Nique.
As far as scoring wings go, Nique may be the most underrated player on RealGM (note: I said RealGM, not the actual media). But nonetheless, all I hear when someone discuss Nique is "low efficiency, hollow stat loser." Dude was a dominant scorer, and not as bad as people make him out to be in the supposed weaknesses in his game. I personally don't have him here yet, but I think we should get his name out there, because I think we're at a point where he should start coming up on the horizon - and certainly not too far behind Pierce/McGrady in an All-Time Sort Ranking.
Scoring- The only players in NBA history with more 25+ PPG seasons are Jerry West, Karl Malone and Michael Jordan (all with more than 10 seasons).
- He's in fact tied with guys like Kobe, Shaq, and Kareem for 10 straight 25 PPG seasons. That's ridiculous longevity for scoring that sort of output night in and night out. For comparisons sake, a guy like Gervin has three entire seasons less scoring the ball at that sort of rate (though I understand that's flawed, since he had many other high volume scoring seasons, while Nique pretty much did 25 PPG or bust). The only players with more 2000 point seasons are Karl Malone, Kareem, and Jordan.
- In a stretch, from 90-95, Nique had four seasons of scoring at least 25 PPG on a .550 TS% or higher. The only other players to replicate such a feat during this time frame was Jordan (4x), Malone (5x), and Mullin (4x). Keep in mind, this is the same stretch with first three peat Jordan, peak Hakeem, DRob, Barkley, Ewing, and still in prime Karl Malone.
The bottom line when Weiss took over as the head coach, Nique became a considerably more efficient but similar in high volume scorer.
Heck in '93, Nique averaged 30/7/3 on 47% from the field, and 38% from three (finishing top 10 in the league in three point makes). I don't think we realize how special that sort of season is from a scoring perspective. In NBA history, there have only been 12 seasons in where a player has done 28+ PPG on at least 45% from the field and 35% from three (with over half a three made per game):
Jordan (4x), Bird (3x), TMac (1x), Durant (1x), Bryant (2x).
I'm not trying to say his peak is on par with some of these guys, but I think we should realize Nique did have efficient seasons scoring the ball, with one season where he was just ridiculous. (His efficiency difference between wins/losses for that Hawks team was incredible, in 39 wins, he did 33/7/4 on .596 TS, in their 31 losses, he did 26/7/3 on .535 TS. He had two months shooting the ball at a 50/40/83 rate, while putting up 34 and 31 PPG respectively those months. A real underlooked season, despite a short playoff exit, IMO). I mean, seriously look at his 91, and 93 season and compare them to Durant's just last season - Nique would nearly have the edge in most categories.
His TS% relative to league average was a nice margin ABOVE.
90: .536 (.556) + 2.0
91: .534 (.555) + 2.1
92: .531 (.552) + 2.1
93: .536 (.570) + 3.4
94: .527 (.529) + 0.2
Admittedly it's lower during the first part of his career, but he scored at roughly league average for three more seasons.
87: .537 (.543) + 0.6
88: .537 (.534) - 0.3
89: .536 (.528) - 0.8
He's had two seasons (his first two seasons of the streak) where he's averaged considerably less than the league wide true shooting percentage, which is unfortunate, but does not define his career, IMO. In case anyone is interested:
85: .543 (.512) - 3.1
86: .555 (.536) - 1.9
EDIT - The Hawks were 11th, 4th, 5th, 4th, 4th, 8th, 16th (year Nique got hurt), 10th during Nique's prime. That's pretty impressive considering the lack of other legitimate options.
He's had what you could argue eight terrific seasons ITO of scoring ability with a four year peak that's nearly in line with some of the years Kobe has had (in terms of scoring). Has led the league in scoring, came twice three more times, finished in the Top 10 in FT's attempted 7 times, and even finished in the top 10ish in 3 Pointers made twice.
I'm not trying to say Nique was a super efficient guy, but he wasn't as bad as advertised.
ReboundingI saw ElGee's post about Pippen's rebounding #'s and what TrueLAFan be considered an average rebounder for a SF. Surprisingly enough, the "one dimensional" Nique has a similar career TRB% when compared to Pippen. 10.4 Career TRB%, including peaking at a 13.0 TRB%. He's even had a season where he averaged nearly 26 PPG along with 9.0 rebounds. The only perimeter players that have averaged at least 25/9 are Larry Bird, Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor, Billy Cunningham and Rick Barry. You could even consider Bird/Cunningham as combo sort forwards, and being in a more modern era, that's damn impressive by Nique.
Note: I'm not saying he's a better rebounder than Pippen, because in the playoffs Nique generally stayed the same/slightly worse, while Pippen increased his output, but Nique was a fantastic rebounder for his position, with a terrific peak.
Impact/Winning91-92: (22-20 w/him -- .523 %) (16-24 w/out him -- .400 winning %)
92-93: (39-32 w/him -- .549 % ) (4-7 w/out him -- .363 winning %)
TOTAL W/OUT NIQUE: 101.6 PPG
LEAGUE AVERAGE: 105.6
TOTAL W/ NIQUE: 110.6 PPG (+9.0)
That's taking a team with the a below average offensive team and making it one of the best in the league. Just for reference sake; 101.6 would be ranked the 22nd worst scoring offense (of 27), while 110.6 would be ranked 5th in terms of overall scoring offenses.
TOTAL (over the course of those two seasons):
61-52 (.539) w/him.
20-31 (.392) w/out him.
That's pretty telling in the sense that it would go against the "he had no real impact on his team" sort of thing. He took them from a team that was below average offensively, and made them slightly above average.
- He led four straight 50 win teams (including one Hawks team that won 57 games). To note, Paul Pierce during his prime has never been the best or more impact-ful player on a 50 win team (though, it's nitpicking as one of his teams won 49, IIRC). Nonetheless, Nique's production goes down in the playoffs, which should drop him down considerably (if he was a fantastic playoff performer, he should arguably be in contention for the spot right now).
But how much can we really blame him for losing in the playoffs. The teams Nique lost to in the playoffs throughout his career consisted of:
86 Celtics, '87 Pistons, '88 Celtics, '89 Bucks, '91 Pistons, '93 Bulls
Outside of the '89 Bucks, we're talking about the best teams in the NBA, some including the greatest teams of All-Time (Celtics, Bulls). Considering Nique never had a legitimate All-Star next to him (Willis was an all-star the year Nique was hurt, and the team played w/out Nique.. Willis was good, but not someone I'd call the help needed to beat the teams listed above).
I think in this competition, we've done a good job of looking past certain circumstances players have been given, and moreso judging them on what they were able to do with what they're given. I think Nique getting a couple 50 win teams and other playoff appearances only losing to the best personifies that train of thought.
Accolades- 5 Top 10 Finishes in MVP Voting (2, 5, 6, 8, 5)
- 7 Time All-NBA.
- 9 Time NBA All-Star
- NBA Scoring Champ
Style Of PlaySome people say his style of play wasn't conducive to winning basketball. I have to ask, why that is? The usual response is, ball hog that eats up the shot clock and takes players out of the rythmn of their offense. I've seen a lot of Nique games recently, and tbh, I've never got the impression he held the ball, and stopped movement. He was much more a quick hitter that made his moves early, often got doubled and tripled team, and would pass well out of them. At times he would force shots, but not to any extent that it actually hurt his team. What scorers of these caliber DIDN'T force shots at times?
And his ROLE on those Hawks teams were to take shots and score points. If he wasn't there to do it, we see the sort of impact it had on the Hawks in '92 and '93. If the Hawks management wasn't so stupid, we could potentially be talking about a Nique that reached the ECF. in '94. The Hawks were rolling before they traded him, which ultimately crushed him, and ended his career (on his Beyond the Glory, he was so crushed, that he just went home crying looking for someone to hug). There have been articles claiming it could have finally been Nique's "year" with Jordan having retired for the first time. Now that's all purely speculative, but the Hawks started 24-7 (won around 34 of 49 with Nique), and he had reduced his shot attempts with a better supporting cast, and they were poised to make a run.
And again, the man DID lead four straight 50 win teams.
He took roughly 20-23 shot attempts for the most part of his prime (20 for his career), which isn't even too far off from the amount of shot attempts Kobe put up.
Defense/PlaymakingNot much to defend here, as these are some of the more criticized parts of his game as well, but I'd just like to point out that:
a.) I don't think Nique's defense was terrible per se. It wasn't good, he didn't fight hard through screens, but we have to figure in some of the offensive load he had for the team, right? He was OK in the passing lanes, and was tough in denying the ball before the pick or screen. With Fratello and a solid defensive cast (Rollins), the 80's Hawks were among the better defensive teams in the league, in fact finishing 2nd in DRTG once season! I know that's not a huge indicator, but I've never got the impression that he was a huge liability defensively. Average, not great, or even particularly good, but not horrible, or particularly bad. Hell, in most games, you'll often see Nique taking majority of the challenge of guarding the opponents best player.
b.) He didn't get many assists, but he didn't turn the ball over. From 90-94, he gave you over 3 assists, and was always under 3 turnovers. Compare that to a more modern day sort scorer in Melo, and you could conclude that Nique was much more careful with the ball in his hands. His assist to turnover ratio isn't a negative like it was Gervin, or even Melo. He was giving you roughly the same amount of assists/mistakes, but in his peak, had a decently positive AST/TO ratio, which again can't be said for a guy like Gervin.
TL;DR version: Nique was an outstanding scorer, with underrated efficiency, a very good rebounder, and didn't make too many mistakes with the ball. He led numerous teams to the playoffs, including 4 straight 50 win teams, and only lost to some of the best teams the era has had to offer. He should be knocked down for his lack of upping his game in the playoffs, but he has decent longevity, and was always critically recognized as one of the best players in the league whether it be in terms of MVP voting, or All-NBA selections. I'm not saying I have him for my nomination here (that still resides with Kidd, and a few more guys), but his name should come up soon - and he deserves a little more respect than those give him sometimes on RGM.
): +2 in 1992 and +1.6 in 1993.
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