Nash vs Rose: Worst MVP in NBA history?

Post #41 » by **Ice Man** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:29 pm

rrravenred wrote:You sincerely believe Amare and Marion were better players than Nash on that team, JB?

They were better than anybody on Rose's team, that is the point. Nash had 2 guys better than anybody Rose had, in fact one could argue that they were each MUCH better, and yet Nash and Rose each led their team to the same record of 62 wins.

That would seem to suggest to me that Rose was the stronger selection and Nash the weaker selection, if we define valuable as meaning helps to win basketball games in the regular season.

SideshowBob · Post #42 » by **SideshowBob** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:42 pm

colts18 wrote:
rrravenred wrote:You sincerely believe Amare and Marion were better players than Nash on that team, JB?

At this point, I think Jordanbulls is either a troll or a 13 years old who actually was born right after MJ stopped playing (Wizards years never existed).

No he's quite obviously a bot. The way he mechanically doles out responses sometimes sound like he's running on various algorithms.

Aeternus · Post #43 » by **Aeternus** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:46 pm

Ice Man wrote:That would seem to suggest to me that Rose was the stronger selection and Nash the weaker selection, if we define valuable as meaning helps to win basketball games in the regular season.

Nice work forgetting how the Suns were only a 7-8 men deep roster while the Bulls had a legue leading defensive unit coming off the bench.
Even if Amar'e and Marion were really much better than (Boozer? Noah?) and Deng, which is arguable, the Bulls easily trash the Suns 4-15.

MASH Transit · Post #44 » by **MASH Transit** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:47 pm

Rerisen wrote:Rose could score uber points like Iverson by chucking up a lot of shots if he wanted, thankfully he plays team ball.

No, Rose couldn't score like Iverson. Regardless of the number of shots he took.

Rapcity_11 · Post #45 » by **Rapcity_11** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:49 pm

Ice Man wrote:
rrravenred wrote:You sincerely believe Amare and Marion were better players than Nash on that team, JB?

They were better than anybody on Rose's team, that is the point. Nash had 2 guys better than anybody Rose had, in fact one could argue that they were each MUCH better, and yet Nash and Rose each led their team to the same record of 62 wins.

This would be a good hypothesis if the Suns didn't completely fall apart without Nash. When Nash left the court (or missed games) in 04/05, the Suns offense dropped by 17.6 points per 100 possessions and the defense got better by 2.1 points per 100 possessions. (Net +15.5 for Nash)

Last year when Rose left the court, the Bulls offense dropped 9.6 points per 100 possessions and the defense improved by 7.7 points per 100 possessions. (Net +1.9 for Rose)

Post #46 » by **rrravenred** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:54 pm

Ice Man wrote:
rrravenred wrote:You sincerely believe Amare and Marion were better players than Nash on that team, JB?

They were better than anybody on Rose's team, that is the point. Nash had 2 guys better than anybody Rose had, in fact one could argue that they were each MUCH better, and yet Nash and Rose each led their team to the same record of 62 wins.

That would seem to suggest to me that Rose was the stronger selection and Nash the weaker selection, if we define valuable as meaning helps to win basketball games in the regular season.

Not all 62-win series are created equal ( :wink:

)The Suns SRS was better than the Bulls the first MVP year and worse the second year (sans Amare). Personally I'd take Boozer, Noah and Deng over Amare and Marion, though YMMV.

It's also worth considering that the Bulls didn't win with offense, which is the primary purpose of a PG, but on the back of league-leading defense, which is a group exercise. So although Rose helped the bulls to an 11th-ranked offence, if we define valuable as helping to win basketball games in the regular season, Rose may not have been the most "valuable" player last season.

Guy · Post #47 » by **Guy** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:27 am

Rose was a great MVP. He put up dominant numbers his 3rd year in the league, 22 years of age on a good team.

JordansBulls · Post #48 » by **JordansBulls** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:02 am

rrravenred wrote:You sincerely believe Amare and Marion were better players than Nash on that team, JB?

Never said that, said they outproduced Nash. There is a difference between the two. No one on the Bulls outproduced Rose, not to mention he was the only allstar on the team. While the Suns had 3 that year.

2005 NBA

1. Shawn Marion
2. Steve Nash
3. Amare Stoudemire

WestSideChamp · Post #49 » by **WestSideChamp** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:05 am

Nash quite easily

He stole mvps from both Kobe and Shaq, both were robbed

Post #50 » by **Doctor MJ** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:10 am

Guy wrote:Rose was a great MVP. He put up dominant numbers his 3rd year in the league, 22 years of age on a good team.

Well, you're certainly right that he was in his 3rd year, and since only 3rd year players are eligible for the MVP, he was really the obvious choice.

Post #51 » by **Doctor MJ** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:11 am

SideshowBob wrote:No he's quite obviously a bot. The way he mechanically doles out responses sometimes sound like he's running on various algorithms.

I like to think he actually is Michael Jordan.

SideshowBob · Post #52 » by **SideshowBob** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:13 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
SideshowBob wrote:No he's quite obviously a bot. The way he mechanically doles out responses sometimes sound like he's running on various algorithms.

I like to think he actually is Michael Jordan.

WestSideChamp · Post #53 » by **WestSideChamp** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:14 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
SideshowBob wrote:No he's quite obviously a bot. The way he mechanically doles out responses sometimes sound like he's running on various algorithms.

I like to think he actually is Michael Jordan.

RandomKnight · Post #54 » by **RandomKnight** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:29 am

Not a good thread question. It's not close. Rose was the easily worst MVP pick ever. Nash was arguably the best ever.

Sebastian · Post #55 » by **Sebastian** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:39 am

rrravenred wrote:
Ice Man wrote:
rrravenred wrote:You sincerely believe Amare and Marion were better players than Nash on that team, JB?

It's also worth considering that the Bulls didn't win with offense, which is the primary purpose of a PG, but on the back of league-leading defense, which is a group exercise. So although Rose helped the bulls to an 11th-ranked offence, if we define valuable as helping to win basketball games in the regular season, Rose may not have been the most "valuable" player last season.

The Bulls won with both offense and defense last season. You can't discredit Rose just because his teammates were better at defense than offense.

And if you want to harp on the defense thing, give him credit for being, statistically, far and away the best defender at his position last year (according to Synergy Sports). Exactly how much D did Dirk and Durant play last season?

Absolutely ridiculous to state that either Nash or Rose was the worst MVP ever.

Post #56 » by **Doctor MJ** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:00 am

Sebastian wrote:The Bulls won with both offense and defense last season. You can't discredit Rose just because his teammates were better at defense than offense.

It's not really about discrediting so much as not getting carried away with bestowing credit. Nash in Phoenix led the single greatest offensive turnaround in NBA history by a massive margin as the team went from below average to GOAT level on that side of the ball without any other major change to team composition. It simply makes sense to talk about him as if he's responsible for the turnaround even if it's clearly unreasonable to give anyone 100% of the credit for such a thing.

In Chicago the turnaround was smaller, more balanced, and the emergence of an elite defense came with the arrival of a coach who had already been responsible for one incredible defensive turnaround. The assumption that Rose was responsible for a night and day difference just isn't as justified.

Post #57 » by **rrravenred** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:21 am

Sebastian wrote:The Bulls won with both offense and defense last season. You can't discredit Rose just because his teammates were better at defense than offense.

And if you want to harp on the defense thing, give him credit for being, statistically, far and away the best defender at his position last year (according to Synergy Sports). Exactly how much D did Dirk and Durant play last season?

Who was discrediting Rose? He had a good season last year. However, I think I'm within my rights to assess the foundations of the Bulls success last year as being more centred around their very good defence rather than their slightly above average offence. You want to disagree, feel free.

Rose as individual defensive maven? Isn't this having your cake and eating it too? Isn't it possible that Rose's good PPP numbers might have something to do with the defensive talent around him?

Sebastian wrote:Absolutely ridiculous to state that either Nash or Rose was the worst MVP ever.

Who's your pick then?

grimballer · Post #58 » by **grimballer** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:41 am

the obvious answer here is rose.

phx suns were successful due to their offense n nash WAS phx offense.

he turn a 29 win team into 62 win team n the year after justified his mvp selection by winning the division without their leading scorer in amare. phx suns were 0-8 in games nash didnt play during that span.

rose on the other hand is similar to iverson. good offensive player on a good defensive team.

the difference is rose ISNT iverson.

rose didnt lead the league in one single statistical category.

even worse he wasnt top five in single statistical category.

iverson led the league in points n steals + was 2nd in getting to the line.

so its really funy some of the posters arguing that iverson was worse than rose.

Post #59 » by **rrravenred** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:46 am

Rose was more efficient than any of Iverson's volume seasons and I don't think anyone would really argue he was the worse defender of the two.

I'd absolutely rank Iverson's MVP year below Rose's (though he had better seasons later in his career)

grimballer · Post #60 » by **grimballer** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:59 am

exept you forget that iversons 2nd option at the time was mutombo ave. 11 ppg n before him theo ratliff at 12.

rose had 2 player ave. 17 ppg

big difference.

also neither were known as stellar defenders, but at least iverson could play the passing lanes. he would disrupt other teams passing game, something rose cant do.

iverson > rose.

n its not really close.