Whats The Lowest Wilt Can Be Fairly Ranked?

[HeterodoxView]

He was just a BETTER PLAYER than either Duncan or Shaq.

Based on what?
Shaq may have had some annoying nagging injurys (mostly towards the end of his career) but was healthy and playoff ready almost every year.
Shaq had far better footwork and more skill in the post and had a far more impressive playoff career.
He made the players around him better and everyone wanted to play beside him during his Prime and Young years because he just made life easier on his supporting casts.
He was also one of the best "big game" players ever and Finals performers.

I cannot see any reason why Wilt would be ranked over Shaq, I don't even think its close.

Duncan and especially Shaq also have better longevity over him.

I think you can make a case for Wilt over Duncan but not Shaq.
Shaq was just a better and more skilled player.

I seriously hope you're joking. Shaq better footwork? You know Wilt used to criticize Shaq for having almost no moves in the paint other than dunking? Wilt was FAR more skilled, and its not even close. Rick Barry wrote an article comparing the two and he said the same thing.
The rest of your analysis is more than just questionable, its just false.

Also, saying Shaq/Duncan have longevity over Wilt is just laughably false. Wilt in his final year led his team to the finals. Duncan had trouble in his career after 2007 (ie his 9th season in the league), his defense noticeably deteriorated and he couldn't make it anywhere without the rest of his team. Shaq in his 14th year won a championship, but everyone knows it had nothing to do with him. He was really not all that good in 2006, the east simply sucked that year and the mavericks for reasons I still cannot understand decided to choke away the finals.

[JingoWolf]

Shaq had some of the best footwork at the C position ever.
He was like a giant ballerina with his back to the basket.
Only Hakeem had better footwork.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI85iVU3xkE[/youtube]
Wilt's footwork is garbage compared to O'neals and he was not close to Shaq in terms of skill and ability with his back to the basket.

Shaq had his beautiful spin moves, up and under moves and an unparalleled power game fully utilizing his incredible strength to put himself into position for easy buckets.
He also had a very smooth/fluid jumphook which was very accurate out to 12 feet or so and was probably more reliable/efficient then Wilts short hooks and fadeaway bank shots.

Not to mention his incredible ball handling ability, ball control and passing/courtvision where Shaq destroys Wilt in every category.

Shaq is one of the most skilled C's to ever play the game, only fools who never actually watched him play a single game from 95-06 think he was only good because he was big.

The only C more skilled the Shaq is Hakeem with Jabbar having a weak but fair argument.
Offensive Skill
Hakeem>>Shaq/Jabbar>>>Wilt>Russell

Shaq was beloved by his teammates and everyone wanted to play with him during his Young and Prime years.
Wilt was hated by many of his teammates and was traded in the middle of his Prime.

Shaq raised his level of play in the playoffs and always dominated in elimination games and in the Finals.
Wilt's game "Wilted" in comparison to his regular season play and he often choked or performed poorly in big games.

I really cannot take you seriously after some of the things you said.

"Everyone knows it had nothing to do with him"
Funny I seem to remember Shaq averaging 20/10 for the entire playoffs and getting more defensive attention then Wade in practically every series including the Finals and having incredibly dominant series against Chicago and especially Detroit in the ECF.
Even in the Finals (where he played poorly) he was at 17 / 12 / 2bpg on 60+% shooting in the games they won.
Don't get me wrong, Wade was the MVP of that playoff run but only by a tiny, tiny margin.
Shaq was almost as important to that title run and he was still a Top 5-10 player that year.
Shaq was also the clearly defined leader of that team.

[Dr Positivity]

RealGM's top 25 and whether it's arguable to put them ahead of Wilt:

1) Michael Jordan - Yes
2) Bill Russell - Yes
3) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Yes
4) Magic Johnson - Yes
5) Wilt Chamberlain - Malkovich? Malkovich Malkovich?
6) Larry Bird - Yes
7) Shaquille O'Neal - Yes
8) Tim Duncan - Yes
9) Hakeem Olajuwon - Yes
10) Kobe Bryant - Yes
11) Julius Erving - Yes
12) Karl Malone - Yes
13) Kevin Garnett - Yes
14) Oscar Robertson - Yes
15) Jerry West - Yes
16) Moses Malone - stretching it far now
17) Dirk Nowitzki - stretching it far now
18) LeBron James - stretching it far now
19) Bob Pettit - stretching it far now
20) Charles Barkley - stretching it far now
21) David Robinson - No (longevity says what's up)
22) Dwyane Wade - No (longevity says what's up)
23) Walt Frazier - Hell to the no
24) Steve Nash - stretching it far now
25) Scottie Pippen - Hell to the no

16 feels right for his floor

[JordansBulls]

RealGM's top 25 and whether it's arguable to put them ahead of Wilt:

1) Michael Jordan - Yes
2) Bill Russell - Yes
3) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Yes
4) Magic Johnson - Yes
5) Wilt Chamberlain - Malkovich? Malkovich Malkovich?
6) Larry Bird - Yes
7) Shaquille O'Neal - Yes
8) Tim Duncan - Yes
9) Hakeem Olajuwon - Yes
10) Kobe Bryant - Yes
11) Julius Erving - Yes
12) Karl Malone - Yes
13) Kevin Garnett - Yes
14) Oscar Robertson - Yes
15) Jerry West - Yes
16) Moses Malone - stretching it far now
17) Dirk Nowitzki - stretching it far now
18) LeBron James - stretching it far now
19) Bob Pettit - stretching it far now
20) Charles Barkley - stretching it far now
21) David Robinson - No (longevity says what's up)
22) Dwyane Wade - No (longevity says what's up)
23) Walt Frazier - Hell to the no
24) Steve Nash - stretching it far now
25) Scottie Pippen - Hell to the no

16 feels right for his floor

Kevin Garnett, Oscar Robertson, Karl Malone, Jerry West ahead of Wilt? Is that some type of sick joke???

[Winsome Gerbil]

RealGM's top 25 and whether it's arguable to put them ahead of Wilt:

1) Michael Jordan - Yes
2) Bill Russell - Yes
3) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Yes
4) Magic Johnson - Yes
5) Wilt Chamberlain - Malkovich? Malkovich Malkovich?
6) Larry Bird - Yes
7) Shaquille O'Neal - Yes
8) Tim Duncan - Yes
9) Hakeem Olajuwon - Yes
10) Kobe Bryant - Yes
11) Julius Erving - Yes
12) Karl Malone - Yes
13) Kevin Garnett - Yes
14) Oscar Robertson - Yes
15) Jerry West - Yes
16) Moses Malone - stretching it far now
17) Dirk Nowitzki - stretching it far now
18) LeBron James - stretching it far now
19) Bob Pettit - stretching it far now
20) Charles Barkley - stretching it far now
21) David Robinson - No (longevity says what's up)
22) Dwyane Wade - No (longevity says what's up)
23) Walt Frazier - Hell to the no
24) Steve Nash - stretching it far now
25) Scottie Pippen - Hell to the no

16 feels right for his floor

Kevin Garnett, Oscar Robertson, Karl Malone, Jerry West ahead of Wilt? Is that some type of sick joke???

No, its Realgm.

Actually... I guess that does make it a joke.

Anyway, there is a long tradition around here of revisionism, whereby the fact that not one person who actually saw Wilt play would put him behind these guys doesn't mean anything compared to our whiz-bang advanced stats and stuff.

Anyway, outside of Realgm I'm not sure I've seen him beyond 4. I think at the height of Shaq's career there might have been some lists putting Shaq higher, but they were often bumping out Russell as I recall. Generally when Jordan ascended to GOAT status the arguments over who he was replacing centered around Wilt, Russell and Kareem. But of course here at Realgm we know better.

[HeterodoxView]

:lol:

Shaq had some of the best footwork at the C position ever.
He was like a giant ballerina with his back to the basket.
Only Hakeem had better footwork.
Wilt's footwork is garbage compared to O'neals and he was not close to Shaq in terms of skill and ability with his back to the basket.

you're a joke dude. how old are you, 20? Stupid kid

Shaq had his beautiful spin moves, up and under moves and an unparalleled power game fully utilizing his incredible strength to put himself into position for easy buckets.
He also had a very smooth/fluid jumphook which was very accurate out to 12 feet or so and was probably more reliable/efficient then Wilts short hooks and fadeaway bank shots.

What's sad is that we actually don't have much if any videotapes from Wilt's scoring days, the earliest full games we have are from 1964, a year in which his scoring was not what it was a few years earlier (partly due to change in philosophy that year). So you pretending to know that Shaq was better than Wilt is a joke, you're a **** joke dude.

Not to mention his incredible ball handling ability, ball control and passing/courtvision where Shaq destroys Wilt in every category.

ROFL! Wilt is the best passing bigman that has ever lived, and stating otherwise is a joke. again, why is this ? because you're a joke

Shaq is one of the most skilled C's to ever play the game, only fools who never actually watched him play a single game from 95-06 think he was only good because he was big.

I think he was great, but not as great as some people like yourself give him credit for. How many times has Shaq gotten swept? **** man, more times than I can count. Wilt on the other hand got swept once in his entire career, in a 3 game series. Anyway, point being, Wilt was more skilled than Shaq, and Wilt said as much himself. Wilt was willing to admit that Shaq might become better than he was due to Shaq being wiling to use his strength, but he also said Shaq has nowhere near the skills Wilt did, and quite frankly he never did for the rest of his career.

The only C more skilled the Shaq is Hakeem with Jabbar having a weak but fair argument.
Offensive Skill
Hakeem>>Shaq/Jabbar>>>Wilt>Russell

Yes, yes we know you're one of the less intelligent roaming around realgm.

Shaq was beloved by his teammates and everyone wanted to play with him during his Young and Prime years.
Wilt was hated by many of his teammates and was traded in the middle of his Prime.

Um...actually it was the other way around. A lot of Shaq's teammates didn't think much of him because he played around a lot. Wilt on the other hand all of his taemmates liked him. Now when it came to Wilt's coaches, that was a different story at times.

Shaq raised his level of play in the playoffs and always dominated in elimination games and in the Finals.
Wilt's game "Wilted" in comparison to his regular season play and he often choked or performed poorly in big games.

Yes, and Shaq never faced any competition at his position. Furthermore, it's a bit mistaken for people to say that Wilt Wilted in the playoffs, in fact people's numbers generally go up because they get more minutes. Wilt on the other hand always played the same amount of minutes whether reguloar season or playoffs.

And the notion that he choked in the playoffs is only true in 1968/1970 (1969 he played poorly all year due to his coach) and ONLY IN GAME 7. At least he got his team to game 7, unlike a certain someone who apparently loved getting swept.

I

really cannot take you seriously after some of the things you said.

Yes, well whenever someone attacks your beloved shaq, a player you make stuff up about to support whatever ranking you want to give to him, anything can be a joke to you, but in reality everyone here knows you're the joke.

Don't get me wrong, Wade was the MVP of that playoff run but only by a tiny, tiny margin.
Shaq was almost as important to that title run and he was still a Top 5-10 player that year.
Shaq was also the clearly defined leader of that team.

[/quote]
If Alonzo mourning was able to play more minutes that year, they would have won without Shaq. Shaq contributed nothing and was a weakling on both the offensive and defensive end. He SUCKED, and everyone except a bunch of young idiots like yourself knows that.

[Warspite]

RealGM's top 25 and whether it's arguable to put them ahead of Wilt:

1) Michael Jordan - Yes
2) Bill Russell - Yes
3) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Yes
4) Magic Johnson - Yes
5) Wilt Chamberlain - Malkovich? Malkovich Malkovich?
6) Larry Bird - Yes
7) Shaquille O'Neal - Yes
8) Tim Duncan - Yes
9) Hakeem Olajuwon - Yes
10) Kobe Bryant - Yes
11) Julius Erving - Yes
12) Karl Malone - Yes
13) Kevin Garnett - Yes
14) Oscar Robertson - Yes
15) Jerry West - Yes
16) Moses Malone - stretching it far now
17) Dirk Nowitzki - stretching it far now
18) LeBron James - stretching it far now
19) Bob Pettit - stretching it far now
20) Charles Barkley - stretching it far now
21) David Robinson - No (longevity says what's up)
22) Dwyane Wade - No (longevity says what's up)
23) Walt Frazier - Hell to the no
24) Steve Nash - stretching it far now
25) Scottie Pippen - Hell to the no

16 feels right for his floor

The recent list is dubious at best and a fraud at worst.

[JingoWolf]

If Alonzo mourning was able to play more minutes that year, they would have won without Shaq. Shaq contributed nothing and was a weakling on both the offensive and defensive end. He SUCKED, and everyone except a bunch of young idiots like yourself knows that.

Sig Worthy.


Cmon dude... how old are you?
You say I make stuff up but then you say stuff like this and that Wilt was beloved by all his teammates when its public knowledge that many of his teammates especially in his early years despised him and considered him a selfish, statpadding ballhog.

BTW, here is Shaq when he "contributes nothing".
2006 Playoffs

Shaq vs Chicago
22 / 11 / 2apg / 2bpg on 61% shooting

Shaq vs Detroit
22 / 11 / 2.5bpg on 66% shooting

Shaq vs Dallas (in the wins)
17 / 11 / 2bpg on 60% shooting

2006 Alonzo Mourning (Playoffs) : 6ppg / 2rpg... yeah he could have replaced Shaq.

Not to mention Shaq was still getting consistent double/triple teams that year which kept the lanes clear for Wade to get easy drives to the basket.
He was a Top 5-10 player that year, acting like he would be simple to replace or that Wade would have even sniffed the Finals without him is a joke.

[penbeast0]

RealGM's top 25 and whether it's arguable to put them ahead of Wilt:

1) Michael Jordan - Yes
2) Bill Russell - Yes
3) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Yes
4) Magic Johnson - Yes
5) Wilt Chamberlain - Malkovich? Malkovich Malkovich?
6) Larry Bird - Yes
7) Shaquille O'Neal - Yes
8) Tim Duncan - Yes
9) Hakeem Olajuwon - Yes
10) Kobe Bryant - Yes
11) Julius Erving - Yes
12) Karl Malone - Yes
13) Kevin Garnett - Yes
14) Oscar Robertson - Yes
15) Jerry West - Yes
16) Moses Malone - stretching it far now
17) Dirk Nowitzki - stretching it far now
18) LeBron James - stretching it far now
19) Bob Pettit - stretching it far now
20) Charles Barkley - stretching it far now
21) David Robinson - No (longevity says what's up)
22) Dwyane Wade - No (longevity says what's up)
23) Walt Frazier - Hell to the no
24) Steve Nash - stretching it far now
25) Scottie Pippen - Hell to the no

16 feels right for his floor

Seriously, although I disagree with about 10 of these slots, I fail to see how you can possibly put contemporaries Oscar and West ahead of Wilt. Oscar had less ridiculous stats combined with appreciably lesser team success; West also had much lesser stats and was even less successful against Boston than Wilt was (despite having Baylor who should rank over anyone Wilt played with in either Philly incarnation). You could talk about their success as a complementary player but Wilt won that way too in his non-scoring Laker stretch.

And of course, another person giving full credit for all the Laker championships to Magic . . . and then the same credit to Kareem for the same rings.

[ThaRegul8r]

RealGM's top 25 and whether it's arguable to put them ahead of Wilt:

1) Michael Jordan - Yes
2) Bill Russell - Yes
3) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Yes
4) Magic Johnson - Yes
5) Wilt Chamberlain - Malkovich? Malkovich Malkovich?
6) Larry Bird - Yes
7) Shaquille O'Neal - Yes
8) Tim Duncan - Yes
9) Hakeem Olajuwon - Yes
10) Kobe Bryant - Yes
11) Julius Erving - Yes
12) Karl Malone - Yes
13) Kevin Garnett - Yes
14) Oscar Robertson - Yes
15) Jerry West - Yes
16) Moses Malone - stretching it far now
17) Dirk Nowitzki - stretching it far now
18) LeBron James - stretching it far now
19) Bob Pettit - stretching it far now
20) Charles Barkley - stretching it far now
21) David Robinson - No (longevity says what's up)
22) Dwyane Wade - No (longevity says what's up)
23) Walt Frazier - Hell to the no
24) Steve Nash - stretching it far now
25) Scottie Pippen - Hell to the no

16 feels right for his floor

Seriously, although I disagree with about 10 of these slots, I fail to see how you can possibly put contemporaries Oscar and West ahead of Wilt.

It does indeed seem odd that one could say that any of Wilt's contemporaries save Russell could be ranked ahead of him. As qualitative data is my specialty, I can say that, in the time that he played, Russell was the only player people considered better. You had your "Russell and Wilt were more dominant, but Oscar is more skilled" contingent (this is where the "most skilled" argument originated), but this was a minority olinion. (There were people who tried to say "most skilled," or "best pound-for-pound," but he was the third-best player of his era at best).

[Warspite]

Rank him however you want but if you were an NBA GM you would offer Wilt your max contract or you would draft him #1 over everyone else. If you sat in an old gym on the 2nd floor and watched the top 20 players of all time play in pickup games you and everyone around you would say that #13 kid was the best of the group.

I ask you this: How many teams could reach the NBA Finals with 1967 Wilt Chamberlain as there starting C?

Now do it for the other 10 top players. Thats the impact that Wilt has and thats how great he is.

How many teams win only 31 games with Prime MJ, or Prime LeBron? None. That's how many wins Wilt won in 1963, the year where he had the highest PER in NBA history.

8 teams

[colts18]

Rank him however you want but if you were an NBA GM you would offer Wilt your max contract or you would draft him #1 over everyone else. If you sat in an old gym on the 2nd floor and watched the top 20 players of all time play in pickup games you and everyone around you would say that #13 kid was the best of the group.

I ask you this: How many teams could reach the NBA Finals with 1967 Wilt Chamberlain as there starting C?

Now do it for the other 10 top players. Thats the impact that Wilt has and thats how great he is.

How many teams win only 31 games with Prime MJ, or Prime LeBron? None. That's how many wins Wilt won in 1963, the year where he had the highest PER in NBA history.

8 teams

Name 8 current NBA teams that would win 31 games with Prime MJ or Prime LeBron? The only one is the Bobcats and I would bet that it is a 50/50 chance MJ or LeBron could lead them .500

[ElGee]

RealGM's top 25 and whether it's arguable to put them ahead of Wilt:

1) Michael Jordan - Yes
2) Bill Russell - Yes
3) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Yes
4) Magic Johnson - Yes
5) Wilt Chamberlain - Malkovich? Malkovich Malkovich?
6) Larry Bird - Yes
7) Shaquille O'Neal - Yes
8) Tim Duncan - Yes
9) Hakeem Olajuwon - Yes
10) Kobe Bryant - Yes
11) Julius Erving - Yes
12) Karl Malone - Yes
13) Kevin Garnett - Yes
14) Oscar Robertson - Yes
15) Jerry West - Yes
16) Moses Malone - stretching it far now
17) Dirk Nowitzki - stretching it far now
18) LeBron James - stretching it far now
19) Bob Pettit - stretching it far now
20) Charles Barkley - stretching it far now
21) David Robinson - No (longevity says what's up)
22) Dwyane Wade - No (longevity says what's up)
23) Walt Frazier - Hell to the no
24) Steve Nash - stretching it far now
25) Scottie Pippen - Hell to the no

16 feels right for his floor

Seriously, although I disagree with about 10 of these slots, I fail to see how you can possibly put contemporaries Oscar and West ahead of Wilt. Oscar had less ridiculous stats combined with appreciably lesser team success; West also had much lesser stats and was even less successful against Boston than Wilt was (despite having Baylor who should rank over anyone Wilt played with in either Philly incarnation). You could talk about their success as a complementary player but Wilt won that way too in his non-scoring Laker stretch.

And of course, another person giving full credit for all the Laker championships to Magic . . . and then the same credit to Kareem for the same rings.

Because people got stuff wrong. Still get stuff wrong. Badly sometime. I'm floored at some of the all-nba and all-defensive votes from this week, but then I remember that I once worked with some of the people who make those votes and frankly they aren't very smart. They are jazzed to be in an NBA locker room and excited to have lived some sort of fan dream, but they aren't particularly bright (some aren't even good writers) and they carry heavy prejudices with them on many issues. These aren't people who really ever get jobs with teams or in any analytical field for a reason (newsflash -- such jobs are 10x more lucrative).

They didn't have much TV back in the 1960s. They didn't have video scouting. They didn't track many basic stats. And the more I analyze team sports the more concerned I get about Winning/Losing Biases. They are *extraordinarily* large in the media, and most of the accounts are from narrative-driven story-tellers.

I still value the old accounts. I still pick the brain of my Dad's generation (I'm lucky to have grown up with 3 smart, sports lovers who also played many sports), but they are all flawed in their own way. I don't think it's impossible to think West or Oscar were better over the course of their careers, even if I do think it's unlikely.

[therealbig3]

^IDK, it's pretty simple for me...there's evidence that Oscar had huge impact throughout his career, that isn't the case for Wilt until the last few years of his career. So I rank Oscar higher.

Wilt's argument is mainly peak, because his longevity as a GOAT-impact player is pretty short.

[Warspite]

How many teams win only 31 games with Prime MJ, or Prime LeBron? None. That's how many wins Wilt won in 1963, the year where he had the highest PER in NBA history.

Reduce the current NBA to 8 teams and then let the 1987 Bulls play each of them 10 times and lets see if they play .500 ball. Will they win 31 games?

It doesnt surprise me at all that you simply cant understand the differance between playing in a 30 team league and 9 team league. Just as the record for Ws in a season has only been broken in expansion yrs so has the record for Ls in a season. The more teams you have the greater the distance between best and worst and the fewer teams you have the less differance between worst and first.

Theres pretty much the same number of allstars and HoFers playing in the NBA at any one time but the differance between 9 teams and 30 allows for 1 player to have a bigger impact as the the size of the league increases.

Im 100% certain that Wilt playing D Howard 4 times a yr would be much more impactful to his team and in his league than when he was facing Bill Russell 12 times a season. Wilt never had the oppertunity to play games vs the 12-30th best Cs in the world. He never played in a league that was illeagal to play zone in. He never had the oppertunity to play with shooters who could hit 45% of there 3pt shots.

[mysticbb]

Theres pretty much the same number of allstars and HoFers playing in the NBA at any one time but the differance between 9 teams and 30 allows for 1 player to have a bigger impact as the the size of the league reduces.

Wow. Do you really believe that the talent pool stayed constant? Do you honestly believe that the amount of talent available didn't change?

[JordansBulls]

Theres pretty much the same number of allstars and HoFers playing in the NBA at any one time but the differance between 9 teams and 30 allows for 1 player to have a bigger impact as the the size of the league reduces.

Wow. Do you really believe that the talent pool stayed constant? Do you honestly believe that the amount of talent available didn't change?

No way, not to mention the talent that was in the league in the 60's wasn't all that great. Sure you had some great players, but many of the average guys couldn't cut it nowadays.

[bastillon]

lol @ penbeast blaming Kareem & Magic for playing with each other when Wilt couldn't even win with prime West dropping like 40 ppg in the finals and that wasn't even close to the most stacked team he played on there is no player in NBA history who flat out wasted the talent on the teams he played on.

[penbeast0]

"Blaming?" Bad word choice. My comment was that people are giving full credit to Kareem for leading his teams to multiple championships in the 80s and ranking him top 5 all-time; they are then giving credit to Magic for leading his team to multiple championships in the 80s and ranking HIM top 5 all-time. Meanwhile, West is not considered a top 10 player and someone like Scottie Pippen is not considered top 20.

In a roughly equal number of years, Wilt without West equaled the number of championships of Kareem without Magic (and of course Magic won zero without Kareem). Wilt's teams didn't live up to expectations; neither did Kareem's pre-Magic. Wilt has the excuse of facing Bill Russell, his playoff series win percentage against teams without Russell is over 80% or just a little better than Michael Jordan's. Kareem was unable to get past the Dave Cowens/Jack Sikma type teams . . . there's a significant difference there.

If you slam Wilt for his "playoff failures" but laud Kareem for his "playoff success" it seems you are using a double standard. If you don't, it's hard to see how Kareem is significantly better than Wilt other than longevity and Wilt's longevity was good, just that Kareem's was great.

[Warspite]

Theres pretty much the same number of allstars and HoFers playing in the NBA at any one time but the differance between 9 teams and 30 allows for 1 player to have a bigger impact as the the size of the league reduces.

Wow. Do you really believe that the talent pool stayed constant? Do you honestly believe that the amount of talent available didn't change?

The talent pool for FoH players is a pretty even constant.

The number of allstars in any yr is the same. It is a constant 24 players.

The talent at C is pretty consistant with the exception of the early 70s.