When Did Kobe Pass Dr.J On Your Rankings And Why/How?

[JingoWolf]

Shaq also only had problems with Kobe from 93-06.

Yeah, I mean, 13 years, that's nothing.

I meant from 93-06 the only player Shaq ever really had issues getting along with was Kobe.
Kobe had issues with Shaq, Malone and many of the LAL Veterans and some others.

I guess neither had/have perfect track records in that regard but Shaq was a very friendly/personable dude and was loved by most of the guys he played with.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NAmlj3tWx0[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKhP3PnB_xM[/youtube]

[JingoWolf]

You can make a good case that he should have won 3 straight MVPs from 2006-2008.

CP3 should have been the MVP in 08.
Nash was really spectacular in 06 and his team beat Kobe's H2H and Wade was also better then him that year.
07 you had Dirk, Nash and Lebron who all arguably had a better case then him.

I'll give you this.
I think Kobe's best case for MVP was in 06 or 07 and I wouldn't have disagreed if he won it those years but he was far from ever being the obvious or clear choice for the award and I am not sure he was ever my favorite or #1 choice.

Winning the MVP doesn't really matter much anyway since in the end like all league given awards is subject to the bias of the voters.

Some awards like All-D, All-Team etc... lost their credibility years ago.

[AnaheimRoyale]

Yup, Kobe's undeserved all-D teams should definitely be a factor in his ranking against Dr J, who was clearly a far superior defender. *Yawn*

[An Unbiased Fan]

You can make a good case that he should have won 3 straight MVPs from 2006-2008.

I would love to see it.

Dirk rightfully won the award in 2007, and Paul was robbed in 2008. Kobe's best case for the award was in 2006.

Dirk won the award in 2007 because of the Mav's record, Kobe was the "most valuable" player in 2007. The Lakers were an awful team without him, and most didn't even pick LA to make the playoffs. Kobe had I think four 40+ PPG months, a 4 game 50 point streak, and an insane number of 40+ games just to put LA into the playoffs from 2006-2007. The performances he was putting up were historic, and hadn't been seen since the days of 80's MJ, and Wilt. And he was playing elite defense too. He was essentially LA's defensive anchor during those years, which tells you had bad it was.

And in 2008, Kobe had LA going way before the Gasol trade. Then Bynum goes down and people expect LA's to fold, but Kobe kept them going. They then make the Pau trade, and Kobe works his game around Pau, so that he can integrate wihtout issues, and LA's goes on a run from the get go. CP3 had a great year in 08', but his team was healthy all year, he had an all-star bigman all year with David West, and he choked away HCA down the stretch. Kobe was the clear MVP.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Shaq also only had problems with Kobe from 93-06.

Yeah, I mean, 13 years, that's nothing.

I meant from 93-06 the only player Shaq ever really had issues getting along with was Kobe.
Kobe had issues with Shaq, Malone and many of the LAL Veterans and some others.

What about Penny, Van Exel, Eddie Jones, Ceballos?

[AnaheimRoyale]

Interesting statistic, Dr J and Kobe have both played 16 seasons at this point.

Dr J has more points, rebounds, steals, blocks, and a better shooting %. Kobe has more assist (not by much) and shoots a better FT%. Dr J has all the other mentioned advantages too, such as being a better player.

[JingoWolf]

Who cares about big scoring games in the regular season against bottom feeding teams?
He wasn't doing that in the playoffs and was rarely doing them against the better teams in the regular season.

Here, lets look at 2007.
These are all the games he had with 40+ points.

CHA
MEM
UTH
NOK
WAS
BOS
SAC
POR
HOUx2
MINx2
LACx2
GSWx2
SEAx2

Mostly bottom feeding sub .500 teams.
Kobe was padding his stats against them ala Wilt Chamberlain.
It's just much less impressive when you realize that.

Remember Shaq's effortless 62 against LAC?
Great scorers can put up big scoring nights against weak teams if they want but most dont.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Interesting statistic, Dr J and Kobe have both played 16 seasons at this point.

Dr J has more points, rebounds, steals, blocks, and a better shooting %. Kobe has more assist (not by much) and shoots a better FT%. Dr J has all the other mentioned advantages too, such as being a better player.

This is only true if you include ABA stats, which would be rather ridiculous.

[C-izMe]

I find that this argument is split between people who value the ABA as much as the NBA and people who don't. I personally don't know how to feel because (arguably) four of the best 5 players playing basketball were in the ABA (Kareem, Dr. J, Artis Gilmore, Moses Malone who wasn't quite there yet, and George Gervin) and they had other greats like Connie Hawkins for example. At the same time the numbers were obviously inflated due to their break neck pace and wide range of talent. If there are any posters who were alive in the days of the ABA I would like to know if the ABA and NBA were equals.

[AnaheimRoyale]

Since Dr J played in an ABA that was at least as good as the NBA at the time, it would hardly be ridiculous.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I find that this argument is split between people who value the ABA as much as the NBA and people who don't. I personally don't know how to feel because (arguably) four of the best 5 players playing basketball were in the ABA (Kareem, Dr. J, Artis Gilmore, Moses Malone who wasn't quite there yet, and George Gervin) and they had other greats like Connie Hawkins for example. At the same time the numbers were obviously inflated due to their break neck pace and wide range of talent. If there are any posters who were alive in the days of the ABA I would like to know if the ABA and NBA were equals.

Both leagues were on par with each other, but the problem I have is that there was an obvious inflation of numbers due to half the talent of the 70's playing in the NBA.

Just look at DR. J's numbers in the ABA, and compare that to his NBA numbers.

[MisterWestside]

So lemme get this straight...

Dirk won the award in 2007 because of the Mav's record, Kobe was the "most valuable" player in 2007.

CP3 had a great year in 08', but his team was healthy all year, he had an all-star bigman all year with David West, and he choked away HCA down the stretch. Kobe was the clear MVP.

You don't like Dirk winning the award even though his team had a better record, yet CP3 gets penalized for his team not having the best record in the West?

Huh?

[An Unbiased Fan]

So lemme get this straight...

Dirk won the award in 2007 because of the Mav's record, Kobe was the "most valuable" player in 2007.

CP3 had a great year in 08', but his team was healthy all year, he had an all-star bigman all year with David West, and he choked away HCA down the stretch. Kobe was the clear MVP.

You don't like Dirk winning the award even though his team had a better record, yet CP3 gets penalized for his team not having the best record in the West?

Huh?

I never penalized CP3 for not having the best record(Boston had that in 2008). I DID however, penalize him for choking away HCA out West in the final weeks, including a head to head game with LA that basically determined the #1 seed. His team was healthy all year, and he had West/Chandler on his frontline.

Kobe was the MVP. He basically held LA together all year long, despite injuries, and a new player coming in for the final 30 games.

[Josephpaul]

People do realize that the year Dr. J won his title in the NBA, he wasn't even the best player on his own team as well.

Dr. J averaged a very good 21/7/4 on 56.6% TS

Moses Malone averaged 25/15 on 57.8% TS

Then in the playoffs,

Dr. J averaged 18/8/3 on 50% TS

Moses Malone averaged 26/16 on 59% TS

Dr. J wasn't even as good as Kobe during the first title year in that season. Yet people give Kobe **** for playing with Shaq.

bravo

[JingoWolf]

Kobe was the MVP. He basically held LA together all year long, despite injuries, and a new player coming in for the final 30 games.

How did he hold LAL together?
Were they supposed to fall apart?

Prime Odom and most of the key roleplayers were healthy from the start.

Yeah some of their Talent didn't join the team until most of the season was over but it doesn't change the fact that their core of Fisher/Kobe/Odom was healthy the whole season.

That alone was good for 40-50 wins even had none of the other players joined the team.

[HeartBreakKid]

So lemme get this straight...

Dirk won the award in 2007 because of the Mav's record, Kobe was the "most valuable" player in 2007.

CP3 had a great year in 08', but his team was healthy all year, he had an all-star bigman all year with David West, and he choked away HCA down the stretch. Kobe was the clear MVP.

You don't like Dirk winning the award even though his team had a better record, yet CP3 gets penalized for his team not having the best record in the West?

Huh?

I never penalized CP3 for not having the best record(Boston had that in 2008). I DID however, penalize him for choking away HCA out West in the final weeks, including a head to head game with LA that basically determined the #1 seed. His team was healthy all year, and he had West/Chandler on his frontline.

Kobe was the MVP. He basically held LA together all year long, despite injuries, and a new player coming in for the final 30 games.

That's a little harsh saying that Chris Paul was not MVP because the Hornets were only the #2 seed in the West, and not the first.

[MisterWestside]

Inever penalized CP3 for not having the best record(Boston had that in 2008). I DID however, penalize him for choking away HCA out West in the final weeks...

That's what I was inquiring about the first time. Reread my post.

It still doesn't make sense though. You want to hold the Hornets record against CP3's MVP candidacy (the Lakers had the better record), but you also want to claim that Kobe should have won the award in a year when Dirk's team had the best record in the West.

[Asianiac_24]

I seriously don't see how Paul is the MVP in 08. Team success? Kobe wins, and he only had Gasol for half a season. Supporting cast? Kobe had Odom and half season of Gasol/Bynum, while Paul had West and Chandler. West is currently the leader of a #3 seeded team in the East and Chandler is the DPOY who was essential for the Mavs' championship last year. They are fairly equal. Arguably equal supporting cast, but Kobe has the better team record. Paul has nothing on Kobe except stats like the PER, which shouldn't even be a factor in MVP voting anyways.

[Asianiac_24]

Inever penalized CP3 for not having the best record(Boston had that in 2008). I DID however, penalize him for choking away HCA out West in the final weeks...

That's what I was inquiring about the first time. Reread my post.

It still doesn't make sense though. You want to hold the Hornets record against CP3's MVP candidacy (the Lakers had the better record), but you also want to claim that Kobe should have won the award in a year when Dirk's team had the best record in the West.

IMO, it is fair to hold CP3's team record against him in 08 because he had a a good supporting cast. Also hurts him that he got outplayed by Kobe in the head to head match up that determined the #1 seed.

[ShaqsLakers]

Easily Dr.J. Better defender, more clutch, more athletic. Just a better basketball player.