#3 Highest Peak of All Time (Russell '65 wins)

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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#41 » by bastillon » Wed Aug 1, 2012 8:31 pm

ElGee wrote:
ardee wrote:Why do you rank Bird over Magic?

-Even if the offensive advantage makes up for the defense, I think Bird scales better to all kinds of different teams on offense. Magic is a "replace the PG and give him the keys" guy. Bird can seemingly go to any kind of offense and play a multitude of positions and still maintain an enormous impact. That would be my "tie-breaker." Would love to hear some out-of-the-box Magic arguments (ahem Doc MJ).


Magic also played different roles during his career. you can hardly compare athletic early 80s Magic off ball player and transition nightmare with much slower/heavier bang-around-the-post late 80s Magic, or do-it-all prime mid 80s Magic.
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#42 » by colts18 » Wed Aug 1, 2012 8:36 pm

ElGee wrote:Now, why am I looking hard at Bird? Let's give him the same broad career strokes to try and narrow in on his peak season.

1980 Celtics
This is Bird's rookie year. I've written in great detail about the changes in the team, here's a quick overview for those unaware.

1979 to 1980 Celtics Changes wrote:-Took the grumpy and disgruntled Dave Cowens off the sideline as a PLAYER-COACH and replacing with him Bill Fitch
-Tiny Archibald's health improved and minutes increasing by 1100
-Replaced poor-rep guys like Marvin Barnes and Bob McAdoo with ML Carr or Gerald Henderson on the bench
-Jo Jo White, limping around on his last legs to start 1979, retired
-Went from no semblance of a rotation (3 healthy players all year, 11 players at 800 minutes, multiple starting 5's) to a team that was healthy and congruent all year

White, Billy Knight and even Earl Williams were starters at the beginning of the 79 season when they opened 2-13...They weren't on the 1980 team. They went 21-20 after a disastrous start and then finished 4-17? McAdoo and players like Curtis Rowe started and played big minutes down that stretch...and they weren't on the 1980 team.


So this massive changes from -5 to +7 SRS isn't simply the presence of Bird. There were a lot of changes. As a result, it's hard to say stuff like "Larry Bird as a rookie took a -2.3 offense to +4.2!"

Can't say that. Not close.

What we can work with is that a rookie Bird -- already 23 years old, polished and one of the best players in the world -- was the offensive centerpiece of a +4.2 offense...the 15th-best offense by that metric in league history at that point in time. This was achieved with a re-invented Tiny Archibald at the point, an efficiency inside player (Maxwell) and some decent shooters (Carr, Ford). These are very nice results.

It also might look to some like Dave Cowens was a big name on the team. Well, Cowens missed 16 games.

w/Cowens: +6.9 SRS
w/out Cowens: +9.4 SRS

The Celtics were just fine without Cowens. This is really a team powered by Bird, augmented by Archibald and Maxwell, and filled with nice role players. Those are seriously good results with such a roster.

1982 Celtics

This time Tiny Archibald missed 14 games. Again, look what happens to the Celtics...

w/Archibald: +6.0 SRS (68g)
w/out Archibald: +7.9 SRS (14g)

Of course in 82, Parish deserves a lot of credit. (He finished 4th in MVP.) But Fitch was doing weird things that year, and the Celtics offense dropped down to 2.9 despite looking like they should be a better offensive team. But the general point is the Celtics were always fine when key players were injured.

We see it again later during Bird's peak.

1986 Celtics
w/McHale: 8.9 SRS (65g)
w/out McHale: 9.6 SRS (17g)

Just to be clear, it's not common to see 17 game samples of 9.6 SRS play. The lineup there was

Parish
Bird (slides to PF)
Wedman
Ainge
D. Johnson

Bench: Walton/Sichting

Now, I'm not saying that team would rock a 10 SRS all year (heck they finished at 9 w/McHale who obviously makes them better in the long run). And the 86 Celtics had a 12.7 SRS in the PS. They did beat the Lakers twice by 10.5 ppg in the RS. From Mar 11 to G3 of the Finals they posted a 13.7 SRS and went 30-3. This is a ceiling, in large part, because of the high-level portability of Bird. He's still a solid defender, mostly due to his crafty team defense (more important than individual D) and ridiculously good rebounding, but he just is able to gel with seemingly any kind of player on offense.

In short, I'd make the argument that the 86 Celtics were better than the 67 76ers. (They had 2 bad losses and 40 dominant wins on the year.)

Post-peak:

1988 Celtics
We finally see McHale -- by 88 a clear superstar -- leave a dent with his absence.

McHale Out, Bird In: +3.4 SRS (13g)
McHale In, Bird In: +8.1 SRS (63g)

The no-McHale lineup was
Parish
Bird/Fred Roberts
Bird/Darren Daye
Ainge
D. Johnson

Bench: Marc Acres, some Reggie Lewis (R) -- KC didn't really like his bench.

The defense was worse without McHale -- as we'd expect here -- but the offense was still +6.2. Just further evidence of Bird's offensive impact. And frankly, I think 88 Bird was a clear step down from 86 Bird on the defensive end, which is reflected there.

1991 Celtics
Bird could still play in 1991. He averaged 19-9-8 54% TS in the first 31 games, in which Boston went 27-4. He didn't bang as much around the hoop -- gone were the incredible OREB% numbers and he drew very few fouls -- but the shooting and passing were still there. As was the scoring for himself when needed.

w/out Bird: -0.7 SRS (22g)
w/Bird: 7.4 SRS (60g)

And where is most of the impact coming from? On OFFENSE...and it's a totally different team than the 80 teams or the mid-80s teams. This squad was very balanced, without a true PG, with Reggie Lewis playing catch-and-shoot, McHale posting and Parish hitting in the mid-range.

Offense w Bird: +6.2
Offense w out Bird: +1.6

McHale actually missed 14 games in which Bird played. When McHale played with Bird, the Celtics were

w/Bird and McHale: +9.0 SRS (46g)

The offense jumps to +7.3. In multiple scenarios we are seeing just ridiculous offensive heights from these Bird offenses.


Do you have the in/out data handy for Magic Johnson? He missed a decent amount of games in the mid to late 80's so there is enough of a sample to get his offensive imapct.
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#43 » by GetItDone » Wed Aug 1, 2012 8:43 pm

PTB Fan wrote:Nice debate you guys have going on there.

I have to ask a Q about LBJ: which season do you consider as his best: 09 or 12?

09

2012 he just had a better team.
ThatsWhatIShved wrote:Disrespectfull thread. I would take 06 Arenas over Lebron. Other than traveling and suspected PED use, what does Lebron have over Gil?
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#44 » by Dr Positivity » Wed Aug 1, 2012 8:43 pm

Vote: 1967 Wilt

My next 3 are likely to be Wilt, Russell and Lebron in some order.

09 Lebron definitely deserves consideration. The 09 Cavs supporting cast was extremely flawed, almost as much as 77 Kareem or something. They overperformed in the regular season because mediocre/bad teams couldn't expose their flaws. Varejao, Wallace and Z basically had no chance to guard the Lewis/Howard combo and their 2nd best offensive player (Mo) couldn't hit an open shot. The thing I am critical about Lebron for is not trying to shut down Hedo. I might give my Lebron vote to 2012 because he was amazing this year too, but I certainly don't blame THAT Cavaliers team for losing. I wouldn't even put them on the level of the 2011 Mavs for supporting help, the Mavs had a much better secondary scorer (Terry) and much more size/defensive aptitude with Kidd, Marion, Chandler all being big for their position.

If we did greatest regular season impacts I would put Lebron 09 1st hands down btw. I think he was worth the most wins ever to a single regular season, period.
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#45 » by Dr Positivity » Wed Aug 1, 2012 8:48 pm

Jordan23Forever wrote:I'm not sure I'm allowed a vote (not sure if only those who opted in earlier are voters), but if we're considering non-championshjp seasons based on level of play and dominance, I think 1990 Jordan has to be considered. Here's his case:


I think we're only allowing one season per player, and MJ's 1991 already got in
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#46 » by colts18 » Wed Aug 1, 2012 8:56 pm

bastillon wrote:LeBron never guarded Turkoglu in that series, Delonte West did. also Turkoglu did a lot more damage than those numbers show because he was their prime facilitator and his goal was to attract defensive attention and initiate the ballmovement after Cavs set defense collapsed.

LeBron guarded Alston and failed miserably. all his series he was slow in the pick and rolls and Cavs paid the price in games 3-4. when Alston exploded for those 26 pts or whatever, it was mainly LeBron's fault. when Alston had poor shooting outings it was mainly because he sucks as a player. he was missing open kickout 3s. when LeBron didn't guard Alston, he guarded Pietrus. I remember there was a layup that Pietrus made becase LeBron didn't even guard him. wide open layup with no one around him. it kind of symbolized LeBron's defense throughout that series.

it was Brown's idea to put LeBron on the worst opposing player to help on Dwight defensively. but he didn't really do that either. Dwight had one of the best offensive series in his career and he never seemed bothered by LeBron's help D (there wasn't much help either).

Funny how the double standards work depending on your agenda. When its KG's team getting abused by Dirk in 2002, it's the coaches fault for putting him in the zone. Why didn't KG use the help defense that is bandied about by his supporters to stop Dirk and the Mavs? There is only so much help defense a player can play if his teammates simply can't matchup with Howard or Rashard Lewis especially with the 3 point shooting of the Magic. Look at the Celtics/Lakers, they chose to guard Dwight 1 on 1 without help and guard the 3 point shooters. That was effective for them because their big men could guard Howard.
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#47 » by colts18 » Wed Aug 1, 2012 9:59 pm

Here are some defensive stats for some modern players. Keep in mind these stats are for the team so the credit can't be 100% on the player because they play around 40 MPG (4/5 of game) but they deserve the majority. This is relative to the other teams in the league so the lowest possible ranking is 30th place (Ie: 30 teams in league)



09 LeBron: 1st in pts, 1st in FG%, 1st in efficiency (stat that takes all stats into consideration into 1 formula like PER)

98 MJ: 1st in pts, 2nd in FG%, 1st in effiency

09 Wade: 20th in pts, 6th in FG%, 10th in effiency

08 Kobe: 18th in pts, 17th in FG%, 8th in effiency

08 CP3: 13th in pts, 26th in FG%, 10th in efficiency

00 Shaq: 4th pts, 3rd in FG%, 7th in efficiency
Inside the paint rankings: 8th in pts, 2nd in FG%, 2nd in Efficiency (00 Mourning is #1 in all 3 stats)

03 Duncan: 6th in pts, 1st in FG% 1st in efficiency
Inside the paint rankings: 7th in pts, 2nd in FG%, 3rd in Efficiency

04 KG: 7th in pts, 4th in FG%, 1st in efficiency
Inside the paint rankings: 11th in pts, 6th in FG%, 3rd in efficiency

10 Howard: 5th in pts, 1st in FG%, 1st in effiency
inside the paint rankings: 2nd in pts, 1st in FG%, 1st in Effiency
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#48 » by drza » Wed Aug 1, 2012 10:28 pm

colts18 wrote:Here are some defensive stats for some modern players. Keep in mind these stats are for the team so the credit can't be 100% on the player because they play around 40 MPG (4/5 of game) but they deserve the majority. This is relative to the other teams in the league so the lowest possible ranking is 30th place (Ie: 30 teams in league)



09 LeBron: 1st in pts, 1st in FG%, 1st in efficiency (stat that takes all stats into consideration into 1 formula like PER)

98 MJ: 1st in pts, 2nd in FG%, 1st in effiency

09 Wade: 20th in pts, 6th in FG%, 10th in effiency

08 Kobe: 18th in pts, 17th in FG%, 8th in effiency

08 CP3: 13th in pts, 26th in FG%, 10th in efficiency

00 Shaq: 4th pts, 3rd in FG%, 7th in efficiency
Inside the paint rankings: 8th in pts, 2nd in FG%, 2nd in Efficiency (00 Mourning is #1 in all 3 stats)

03 Duncan: 6th in pts, 1st in FG% 1st in efficiency
Inside the paint rankings: 7th in pts, 2nd in FG%, 3rd in Efficiency

04 KG: 7th in pts, 4th in FG%, 1st in efficiency
Inside the paint rankings: 11th in pts, 6th in FG%, 3rd in efficiency

10 Howard: 5th in pts, 1st in FG%, 1st in effiency
inside the paint rankings: 2nd in pts, 1st in FG%, 1st in Effiency


I can see making broad-strokes comparisons for older players because we don't have the data, but why would this method be better than defensive RAPM for the last decade? Seems like what you describe here is just a much, much, much rougher approximation based on overall team results and sometimes somewhat bizarrely credited (why would Paul be the main guy on his defense?) when you could actually look at more refined numbers. For the players that you mention here that we have +/- data for, here were their defensive RAPM numbers for the seasons in question:

'03 Duncan +3.7 (2nd in NBA, Ostertag 1st @ +3.8)

'04 Garnett +3.6 (3rd in NBA, Ben Wallace 1st @+4.3)

'08 CP3 -0.8 (Well outside of the top 100?, Garnett 1st @+5.2)

'08 Kobe +0.5 (Well outside of the top 50? Garnett 1st @+5.2)

'09 Wade +0.7 (outside top-50?, Garnett 1st @+5.6)

'09 LeBron +2.8 (about 13th in NBA, Garnett 1st @+5.6)

'10 Howard +2.5 (about 16th in NBA, Bogut 1st @+4.4)

If you're going to make a statistical defensive argument it seems to me that of these recent players/years that you listed, Duncan and Garnett were both at the top of the league in defense at their peaks. LeBron and Howard were both among the better defenders in the league (Though Howard's been at the top of the league in other years), and none of Wade, Kobe or CP3 were making much defensive impact in those seasons.
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#49 » by therealbig3 » Thu Aug 2, 2012 12:24 am

After Russell, I'm looking at Wilt, Bird, Magic, and LeBron.

Following those guys, I think Duncan, KG, Hakeem, Walton, Dr. J, and Kareem are all in very similar boats. Probably Kareem next, then the other big men, then finally Dr. J. It's absolutely no knock on Dr. J, but I think those other guys were simply better. And I have read all the great posts on Dr. J.

After the top 13 guys (who I agree are the 13 players that clearly peaked higher than anyone else in history), I'd probably go with Dirk/T-Mac/Wade/Kobe/Barkley/West/Oscar/Malone/Robinson/Nash in some order.
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#50 » by ElGee » Thu Aug 2, 2012 6:14 am

colts18 wrote:Do you have the in/out data handy for Magic Johnson? He missed a decent amount of games in the mid to late 80's so there is enough of a sample to get his offensive imapct.


1981
w/Magic: +4.8 SRS (36g)
w/out Magic: +2.2 SRS (46g)

I've included the game he gets injured (left at the beginning). If we assumed a constant pace with Magic (unlikely -- they probably played faster), then the ORtg change is 105.8 to 111.4 with him.

1984
w/Magic +4.0 SRS (67g)
w/out Magic +0.2 SRS (15g)

I can actually come up with a pace estimate using the Complex Method, but in lieu of that we know that the Lakers TS% with Magic was 53%, down from the 53.7% when he was out for 15 games.

1986
w/Magic +7.2 SRS (72g)
w/out Magic +7.4 SRS (9g)

Small sample. I've discarded the last game of the year which was a throw-away. Here, we have the full pace information.

Offense w/Magic: +6.1 ORtg
Offense w.out Magic: +5.0 ORtg

1988
w/Magic: +6.0 SRS
w/out Magic: -5.5 SRS

Cooper also missed 5 of the games Magic missed. Again small sample.

Offense w/Magic: +5.7
Offense w/out Magic: -1.1

1996
w/Magic: +6.3
w/out Magic: +2.9

Offense w/Magic: +7.4
Offense w/out Magic: +2.5

These numbers need a bit of context though, as Eddie Jones missed the beginning of the year (a big impact player throughout his prime, BTW).

Jones in/Magic Out: +3.5 SRS (+2.6 ORtg)
Jones in/Magic In: +6.3 SRS (+7.4 ORtg)
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#51 » by bastillon » Thu Aug 2, 2012 11:53 am

colts wrote:Here are some defensive stats for some modern players. Keep in mind these stats are for the team so the credit can't be 100% on the player because they play around 40 MPG (4/5 of game) but they deserve the majority. This is relative to the other teams in the league so the lowest possible ranking is 30th place (Ie: 30 teams in league)


horrendous way to measure individual defense with all the tools that we have available. way to push your agenda. you're a great poster, I know you can do better.

colts wrote:Funny how the double standards work depending on your agenda. When its KG's team getting abused by Dirk in 2002, it's the coaches fault for putting him in the zone. Why didn't KG use the help defense that is bandied about by his supporters to stop Dirk and the Mavs? There is only so much help defense a player can play if his teammates simply can't matchup with Howard or Rashard Lewis especially with the 3 point shooting of the Magic. Look at the Celtics/Lakers, they chose to guard Dwight 1 on 1 without help and guard the 3 point shooters. That was effective for them because their big men could guard Howard.


I don't think you understand what you're saying. in 2002 Saunders did a terrible mistake because Mavs were probably the greatest 3pt shooting team of all-time. sometimes they had five 3pt shooters on the floor for god's sake. one of the simplest basketball principles is not to play zone defense vs 3pt shooting teams. you wanna play zone vs Wade/LeBron because they're not outside threats and depend a lot on their isolations so zone up and that'll help you with crowding the lane. but you don't play zone vs Nash/Finley/NVE/Dirk/LaFrentz. really, I'm not sure if you're being serious here. there's no way you can think of a worse game plan than what Saunders came up with. it's not about where he put KG. this is about using zone vs possibly THE greatest 3pt shooting team ever.

in the case of Cavs-Magic, the problem was never with Brown's coaching. he had an idea to put LeBron on the worst opposing player so that he would roam around defensively. LeBron being Cavs best help defender on the perimeter, that makes some sense. at the time I thought Cavs should've gone small with LeBron guarding Lewis but Brown's gameplan was legit. he knew there's no way Ilgauskas/Varejao could stop Dwight and he also knew he needed a good defender to help out on him. the problem was LeBron rarely helped well.

tactically this a no contest, Brown had a good gameplan - put your best defender on opp's worst player and let him help defensively (btw. I like to do that in real games when I'm playing basketball, I'm kinda like Stockton defensively so I'm trying to guard a non shooter to help out. this is a good strategy); Saudners had an idiotic plan. this isn't much a surprise. Brown has always been known for his great defensive coaching. Saunders' teams consistently underperformed defensively. just watch what he did to those tremendous Pistons teams. suddenly you had opps shooting layups down the stretch. LeBron/Wade run over those Pistons in the playoffs. it was sad to watch how team could be changed with bad coaching. Brown is one of the best defensive coaches of this generation. Saunders is a defensive (Please Use More Appropriate Word). this is your difference.

what you're also overlooking is that Wolves defenders were poor, period. Cavs had a great defensive personel. they were the best defensive team in the league after Garnett went down with that knee injury in february. I wouldn't have any problem with that series if LeBron was playing with Wally and Joe Smith and they were trying to stop Nash/Dirk/Finley. that'd be impossible obviously. but Cavs had #1 ranked defense in the league and they were playing against mediocre offensive team. to let them look like Suns 05 offensively is just not right.
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#52 » by ardee » Thu Aug 2, 2012 1:03 pm

PTB Fan wrote:Nice debate you guys have going on there.

I have to ask a Q about LBJ: which season do you consider as his best: 09 or 12?


2009, quite handily, at least for me.

The impact he had on that 2009 team is quite shocking, to be honest. Just a monstrous regular season, the way he was literally winning game after game by himself. And he was also second in Defensive Player of the Year voting... He looked to be at Pippen-level defensively, at times.

Playoffs were even better, and even though people like to poke at his Orlando performances, really, how can you find fault with a 39-8-8 series against the league's no. 1 defense?
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#53 » by ardee » Thu Aug 2, 2012 1:12 pm

ElGee wrote:
ardee wrote:Why do you rank Bird over Magic?


It's never been clear to me, but I'm definitely leaning toward it in the is project based on:

-Bird's defense is better
-Magic's offensive advantage might not be enough to make up for it

-Even if the offensive advantage makes up for the defense, I think Bird scales better to all kinds of different teams on offense. Magic is a "replace the PG and give him the keys" guy. Bird can seemingly go to any kind of offense and play a multitude of positions and still maintain an enormous impact. That would be my "tie-breaker." Would love to hear some out-of-the-box Magic arguments (ahem Doc MJ).


So you're specifically ranking '86 Bird over '87 Magic here? If that's the case it's an interesting assertion, and I can think of a few arguments here. Just checking if that is what you're saying though.
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#54 » by PTB Fan » Thu Aug 2, 2012 1:54 pm

ardee wrote:
PTB Fan wrote:Nice debate you guys have going on there.

I have to ask a Q about LBJ: which season do you consider as his best: 09 or 12?


2009, quite handily, at least for me.

The impact he had on that 2009 team is quite shocking, to be honest. Just a monstrous regular season, the way he was literally winning game after game by himself. And he was also second in Defensive Player of the Year voting... He looked to be at Pippen-level defensively, at times.

Playoffs were even better, and even though people like to poke at his Orlando performances, really, how can you find fault with a 39-8-8 series against the league's no. 1 defense?


Is there a big difference from a statistical point of view when the two seasons are compared? Let's say if you were making a case somewhat for the '12 season, what arguments would you be using? I'm very curious because I'm in big doubt about it.
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#55 » by lorak » Thu Aug 2, 2012 2:11 pm

drza wrote:I'll be voting for '65 Russell, for reasons touched upon in the previous two threads.


Why Russell '65 over Bird '86?

ElGee wrote:With Shaq and MJ in my rear view, I'll move on to the players I see as the next immediate candidates and address some of what is being said about them:

Bill Russell and Wilt: As of right now, he's my next vote. I suppose it makes sense then to compare him to Wilt, who as I have mentioned I apparently view quite differently than most. I've seen posters, like Dipper, reference that Wilt would have been better in the future. If you have so boldly chosen to enter the world of "how would these guys do in ANY time or TODAY?" then by all means I agree. I've said many times I think this method is so unclear it borders on silly, but if that's how one values this project then I understand (reluctantly).

IF, on the other hand, you are like me and feel we can only judge what a guy did relative to his league that year,



So why Mikan isn't, and will not be, mentioned? After all his peak isn't so far in time from Russell's and his impact was as good, if not better.
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#56 » by drza » Thu Aug 2, 2012 2:43 pm

DavidStern wrote:
drza wrote:I'll be voting for '65 Russell, for reasons touched upon in the previous two threads.


Why Russell '65 over Bird '86?


Short answer (time crunch at the moment): I think Russell's individual defensive impact at his peak is as large as any 2-way impact for any player ever, including Jordan and Shaq. I don't have any issue with any of the players that have already been voted in or the ones that will be soon, including Bird, but I honestly haven't seen an argument yet as to why Russell shouldn't have already been voted in.
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#57 » by lorak » Thu Aug 2, 2012 3:00 pm

drza wrote:
DavidStern wrote:
drza wrote:I'll be voting for '65 Russell, for reasons touched upon in the previous two threads.


Why Russell '65 over Bird '86?


Short answer (time crunch at the moment): I think Russell's individual defensive impact at his peak is as large as any 2-way impact for any player ever, including Jordan and Shaq.



But don't you think Russell's impact was done in weaker era? I mean, +10 SRS impact in 1962 probably isn't better than +8 SRS in 1992.
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#58 » by colts18 » Thu Aug 2, 2012 5:24 pm

ElGee wrote:1981
w/Magic: +4.8 SRS (36g)
w/out Magic: +2.2 SRS (46g)

I've included the game he gets injured (left at the beginning). If we assumed a constant pace with Magic (unlikely -- they probably played faster), then the ORtg change is 105.8 to 111.4 with him.

1984
w/Magic +4.0 SRS (67g)
w/out Magic +0.2 SRS (15g)

I can actually come up with a pace estimate using the Complex Method, but in lieu of that we know that the Lakers TS% with Magic was 53%, down from the 53.7% when he was out for 15 games.

1986
w/Magic +7.2 SRS (72g)
w/out Magic +7.4 SRS (9g)

Small sample. I've discarded the last game of the year which was a throw-away. Here, we have the full pace information.

Offense w/Magic: +6.1 ORtg
Offense w.out Magic: +5.0 ORtg

1988
w/Magic: +6.0 SRS
w/out Magic: -5.5 SRS

Cooper also missed 5 of the games Magic missed. Again small sample.

Offense w/Magic: +5.7
Offense w/out Magic: -1.1

1996
w/Magic: +6.3
w/out Magic: +2.9

Offense w/Magic: +7.4
Offense w/out Magic: +2.5

These numbers need a bit of context though, as Eddie Jones missed the beginning of the year (a big impact player throughout his prime, BTW).

Jones in/Magic Out: +3.5 SRS (+2.6 ORtg)
Jones in/Magic In: +6.3 SRS (+7.4 ORtg)

Thanks ElGee. It does show that Magic had a big impact but I was hoping that it was bigger offensively. I'll have to look into him more.

You are voting for Russell 65. Have you looked back at the in/out defensive stats for the games Russell missed now that B-R has gamelogs for every game in his career? He averaged just 65 games/season in his first 4 years that was supposed to be his offensive peak.
drza
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#59 » by drza » Thu Aug 2, 2012 5:26 pm

DavidStern wrote:
drza wrote:
DavidStern wrote:Why Russell '65 over Bird '86?


Short answer (time crunch at the moment): I think Russell's individual defensive impact at his peak is as large as any 2-way impact for any player ever, including Jordan and Shaq.



But don't you think Russell's impact was done in weaker era? I mean, +10 SRS impact in 1962 probably isn't better than +8 SRS in 1992.


The question of how to handle era is a difficult one. I guess here, this is the way I think of it (with acknowledgment to Doc MJ and others who made similar arguments in the top-100 project):

While the game has changed a lot in the last 50 years, Russell's body type/athleticism/defensive abilities would seem translatable. Two of his "descendants" in this respect, Olajuwon and Garnett, have demonstrated the ability to dominate the modern NBA at the defensive end. In an attempt to quantify it...

Since Garnett has been in Boston he has finished in the top-5 in yearly RAPM in every season except for 2010 (knee), based in large part on his defensive impact. In the 4-year APM study from 2008 - 2011, Garnett also finished in the top-5 overall and #1 on defense with a defensive APM mark of +6.4. That +6.4 on defense alone would have placed him #8 in the league for both offense and defense combined, and not that far behind #1 LeBron (+10.2). Mind you, this is mid-30s Garnett playing in more of a "Russell-like" role than he was in his prime.

But, I'm very confident that peak Bill Russell was a dramatically better defender and rebounder than 30-something Garnett. Thus, I don't find it a stretch at all that a peak Russell over the last 5 years could have been topping the RAPM lists purely on defense alone, including the 2009 peak for LeBron that will certainly finish in the top-10 of this project.
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Re: #3 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Fri 11:49 PM Pacific) 

Post#60 » by ardee » Thu Aug 2, 2012 5:35 pm

PTB Fan wrote:
ardee wrote:
PTB Fan wrote:Nice debate you guys have going on there.

I have to ask a Q about LBJ: which season do you consider as his best: 09 or 12?


2009, quite handily, at least for me.

The impact he had on that 2009 team is quite shocking, to be honest. Just a monstrous regular season, the way he was literally winning game after game by himself. And he was also second in Defensive Player of the Year voting... He looked to be at Pippen-level defensively, at times.

Playoffs were even better, and even though people like to poke at his Orlando performances, really, how can you find fault with a 39-8-8 series against the league's no. 1 defense?


Is there a big difference from a statistical point of view when the two seasons are compared? Let's say if you were making a case somewhat for the '12 season, what arguments would you be using? I'm very curious because I'm in big doubt about it.


Well, for the '12 season, I would say he was more versatile. He couldn't get to the rim literally at will like he did in 2009, but he was stronger, bigger and had a legit back to the basket game. His jumper was MUCH improved, as was his efficiency.

I'd say defense is about a wash, maybe slight edge to 2012. I still think his defense gets slightly overrated (Durant 31 ppg on 65% TS against him), but he's definitely among the top three wings in the league in that area.

Main reason I rank 2009 over 2012 is because the impact is clearly visible. In 2009 he took a team with ONE other player who had a PER over 15 to a 112.4 ORtg.

In 2012 his team had another superstar wing, an All Star post option, and three good to very good shooters (Battier, Miller and Chalmers), and they yet finished with only a 106.6 ORtg. Now I know it's not the ideal team fit-wise (the LeBron-Wade dynamic has already been discussed to death), but the fact remains that with such a massive talent gap shouldn't we be seeing something historic?

As for the Playoffs, I don't think anyone can argue with a 37 PER. Nearly .400 WS/48? I don't like to rely so much on advanced stats, but will we ever see something like that again? The pure domination was just mind-boggling.

I mean seriously, if he doesn't run into a team with a big man whom his team can't handle, that's the GOAT season right there.

As it is, the '09 season probably be about 6-7 on my list.

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