#5 Highest Peak of All Time (Hakeem '94 wins)

[ushvinder88]

The internet at its finest, where the 'aba dr. j' will be mythologized into having a peak as good as lebron's. The same internet that will say kobe is overrated due to team success, despite the fact that magic or bird were not dominant individual players like lebron, or anywhere near the 2 way players hakeem and duncan were. I forgot the double standard doesnt apply to older players.

Lebron, Hakeem and Duncan all peaked higher than bird, magic and dr.j, but i forgot only modern players can get criticised for relying more on team success rather than individual dominance. You guys can brainwash yourselves into thinking magic was a dominant individual player like jordan/wilt/shaq/lebron were, hmmm but he wasn't. His defense is by far the worst of any top 10 atg, he always had to have 3 others players on the team that would help carry the load offensively, but magically he produced a higher peak than 94 hakeem, 03 duncan and 09-12 lebron, what a joke.

1. Do you realize that in the ABA Finals of 1976, Erving averaged 38 points and 14 rebounds against a Nuggets team that stayed together, and then became the best defensive team in the NBA the very next season?

2. On what basis do you make that statement? What are you trying to prove here? The Doctor had a TERRIBLE cast when he won the title in '76. Magic was responsible for the greatest offense in history. Magic's offensive peak was above the lump of guys you mentioned, the only one who comes close is Bird.

Magic was not a shutdown defender, but he played good team defense, got a lot of steals, and was arguably the GOAT rebounding guard. None of those '3 other guys that would help carry the load offensively' were on the level of Pippen or young Kobe when Magic was at his peak. Everything was dependent on Magic's creation.

You come in here and start flaming like that, no one is going to take you seriously, my friend.

On what grounds are you making your statement, no one here actually saw dr.j play in the aba, the games werent even on tv.

If lebron won a ring nowadays in a new aba, he would get ripped apart into shreads for joining the inferior league. But i forgot, the modern player bashing doesnt paply to the precious julius erving.

Winning a ring in the ABA means jack squat when talking about top 10 all time peaks. What happened when dr. j actually joined the nba from age 26-29, his PER and numbers in general were completely mediocre. Oh my the 1974-1976 ABA dr. j is better than lebron, the most laughable statement ever.

I really dont know what you mean by offensive peak? Does that simply look at scoring and passing and completely ignore rebounding on the offensive side and ignore effieceny. Lebron blows magic away in terms of efficiency, and he blows him away in terms of defensive play. Lebron over magic any day of the week.

Duncan won his ring by averaging 10 more ppg than any other teammate, 9 more rebounds per game than any other teammate, and 2 more assists per game than any other team. Thats called dominating! Magic on the otherhand has to rely on cooper to cover him defensively, rely on worthy, scott, kareem and other 4th-5th options scorers to carry the load offensively. Thats a higher peak than what duncan and hakeem had to while being the defensive anchors, lol please. Lebron, hakeem and duncan over magic any day of the week.

However, I know realgm is going to give the 5th-8th spots all to kareem, magic, bird and dr.j because evveryone here likes to romantiise them and make them seem better than they actually were.

No one is going to take you seriously if you think peak bird and magic are actually better than lebron, team success is the only reason they are comparable. Keep wearing your oldschool sunglasses.

[GrangerDanger]

^

You do realize basketball has change a lot right? Now stars get the offense ran through them a LOT more. It's a lot easier to put up stats when you touch the ball every single possesion. It gets your confidence up, lets you pick and choose you spots, boosts assists, etc. You act like it's a bad thing that Bird and Magic were flexible enough to dominate the game without needing to hold the ball 15+ seconds every possesion. There would be times when the Lakers would have 6 or so straight possesions without Magic touching the ball. When's the last time you've seeen that happen with Kobe or Lebron?

I get the feeling you don't understand the context of Dr. J's situation in the NBA. There's several good reasons why his "boxscore" numbers dipped. I suggest doing some more research on those late seventies Sixers teams. There's more to the game than boxscore stats.

[ElGee]

Vote: 1986 Larry Bird

@Bastillon -- I have Hakeem next on my ballot right now.

@realbig3 -- I posted the numbers in the last thread. You need to consider the PS performances as well since the way you perform in the PS is what determines winning a championship.

Now, we need to try and separate luck/variance from some causal trend because the sample size of the PS is so small. Fortunately, with Bird we've got about 5 nice years where he's really excelling offensively (84-88). It's safe to say the stuff we see at his peak, in 1986, isn't a fluke.

You ask "how are these offenses historic?" Well, we can't really get a good feel for the PS offenses of West or Oscar, so let's leave them aside. So in the 3-pt era, who else has offenses like the ones you listed for a 5-year stretch? Magic's Lakers, Jordan's Bulls, Nash's Suns. That's about it, no? And obviously, in the context of determining an individual player, we need to make subtle accounts for offense/defense strategy (I agree Boston was more defensively-inclined, look at the OREB% numbers) and for their teammates. And yes, I think assuming the 3-point line doesn't matter is wrong, and I've posted numbers on the matter in this very project.

[semi-sentient]

Here are the numbers for Bird's '86 season:


1985-86

Regular Season (Celtics 67-15)

Code: Select all

       GP  MP    PTS   TS%   REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PER   WS 
=================================================================
Bird   82  38.0  25.8  .580  9.8   6.8  2.0  0.6  3.2  25.6  15.8

Team Offense: Celtics (3rd, 111.8 oRtg)
Team Defense: Celtics (1st, 102.6 dRtg)

Playoffs (Celtics 15-3)

Code: Select all

       GP  MP    PTS   TS%   REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PER   WS 
=================================================================
Bird   18  42.8  25.9  .615  9.3   8.2  2.1  0.6  2.6  23.9  4.2

Team Offense: Celtics (2nd, 115.0 oRtg)
Team Defense: Celtics (1st, 104.6 dRtg)

NBA Finals (Celtics over Rockets, 4-2)

Code: Select all

       GP  MP    PTS   TS%   REB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV
====================================================
Bird   6   44.8  24.0  .578  9.7  9.5  2.7  0.3  2.7

Magic's '87 season and Bird's '86 season should spark some great debate. Two amazing seasons that are hard to distinguish.

[PTB Fan]

Nice post by TheRegulat8or on 77 Kareem.

[therealbig3]

I'm voting for Hakeem as well. I've yet to hear an argument against him.

Duncan had a higher SPM

Um, it's true. Since when does production not matter?

Duncan in 02 and 03 clearly surpassed Hakeem in terms of production from what I see with the SPM. In terms of impact, I haven't seen anything to prove that Hakeem had more impact than Duncan. It's small sample sizes for sure, but comparing the with/without of 91 (should be better defensively than 94) and 95 Hakeem (comparable to 94) to 05 Duncan, and 05 Duncan (clearly not his peak) still clearly surpassed Hakeem.

So what gives, why is it so ridiculous to rank Duncan over Hakeem? The best argument for Hakeem is that he played great during the 94 Finals and shut down Ewing. Awesome for him, but that's still only 7 games out of a whole season, and holistically speaking, I think I'm leaning Duncan over Hakeem. At minimum, I'd take Hakeem but barely, and they'll probably go right after each other.

And since I think LeBron/Magic/Bird/Kareem and possibly Walton/Dr. J peaked higher than either of them, that's why I'm not taking Hakeem.

[ushvinder88]

^

You do realize basketball has change a lot right? Now stars get the offense ran through them a LOT more. It's a lot easier to put up stats when you touch the ball every single possesion. It gets your confidence up, lets you pick and choose you spots, boosts assists, etc. You act like it's a bad thing that Bird and Magic were flexible enough to dominate the game without needing to hold the ball 15+ seconds every possesion. There would be times when the Lakers would have 6 or so straight possesions without Magic touching the ball. When's the last time you've seeen that happen with Kobe or Lebron?

I get the feeling you don't understand the context of Dr. J's situation in the NBA. There's several good reasons why his "boxscore" numbers dipped. I suggest doing some more research on those late seventies Sixers teams. There's more to the game than boxscore stats.

What more research do I need to do? You never saw the ABA Dr. J play. You can make any excuses you want as to why his efficiency in the nba is not even in the same league as a lebron/mj or shaq, i deal with reality, i dont pretend erving was on thier level.

So its alot easier to put up the numbers that lebron does while maintaining his efficiency? Really, great to know logic runs wild here.

I choose not to ignore the fact that bird and magic are probably the 2 worst defensive players in the 'consensus top 10'. I choose not to ignore the fact that Magic was never in the situation that hakeem of 1994 or duncan of 2003 were placed in. Magic always had it easier than them, that doesnt result in a higher peak. I have no problem seeing jordan and wilt in the top 5, magic doesnt have a top 5 peak, regardless this doesnt matter much to me anyways. Within 5-10 years, lebron will be greater than magic, he already has the better peak.

By the way, im curious, what do you mean by basketball players have the offense ran through them alot more? Are you suggesting that if Magic wanted to, he could dominate statistically like shaq, lebron and jordan did, but was held back by his style of play, lol. I have seen magic play many times, i know the type of player he was, he would have never been on thier level if he was asked to be on a team where the offense is run through him and he only has 1 or 2 decent players on his team. Fantasize as much as you want about magic having the gifts of jordan/shaq/lebron in terms of being able to dominate but he wouldnt because I know he aint as good as them.

Yeah thier is more to basketball than boxscore, its called efficiency and defensive impact, two categories where bird, magic and even dr. j are not in the same league as the players i've mentioned.

[lorak]

1. Do you realize that in the ABA Finals of 1976, Erving averaged 38 points and 14 rebounds against a Nuggets team that stayed together, and then became the best defensive team in the NBA the very next season?

1. NYN played at very high pace - around 105 (2012 league average was 91.3), so Erving's numbers are little bit inflated.

2. Nuggets in 1976 were -0.7 DRTG, so nothing special defensively.

3. In 1977 Denver was different team. Among players who played at least 1000 minutes Nuggets lost Simpson (3121 minutes in 1976), Williams (2529), Beck (1586), Terry (1349) and Gerard (1185) and added McClain (2002 minutes in 1977), Silas (1959), Taylor (1558), Wise (1403), Price (1384) and Webster (1276).

So in fact during '77 season it was very different team than during '76 campagin and only 3 from 8 players who played +1k minutes in 1976 also played +1k minutes in 1977 (Skywalker, Jones and Issel). And adding Silas was BIG upgrade defensively so no wonder their defense improved in 1977.

2. On what basis do you make that statement? What are you trying to prove here? The Doctor had a TERRIBLE cast when he won the title in '76.

Terrible? I don't think so. For example Williamson was ok player who played even better in playoffs and Taylor was chosen to All ABA D Team in 1976 and played in ASG.

BTW, 1976 NYN played only 10 games on their way to the title, two rounds... that should count here. As well as talent split between two leagues.

[GrangerDanger]

^

You do realize basketball has change a lot right? Now stars get the offense ran through them a LOT more. It's a lot easier to put up stats when you touch the ball every single possesion. It gets your confidence up, lets you pick and choose you spots, boosts assists, etc. You act like it's a bad thing that Bird and Magic were flexible enough to dominate the game without needing to hold the ball 15+ seconds every possesion. There would be times when the Lakers would have 6 or so straight possesions without Magic touching the ball. When's the last time you've seeen that happen with Kobe or Lebron?

I get the feeling you don't understand the context of Dr. J's situation in the NBA. There's several good reasons why his "boxscore" numbers dipped. I suggest doing some more research on those late seventies Sixers teams. There's more to the game than boxscore stats.

What more research do I need to do? You never saw the ABA Dr. J play. You can make any excuses you want as to why his efficiency in the nba is not even in the same league as a lebron/mj or shaq, i deal with reality, i dont pretend erving was on thier level.

So its alot easier to put up the numbers that lebron does while maintaining his efficiency? Really, great to know logic runs wild here.

I choose not to ignore the fact that bird and magic are probably the 2 worst defensive players in the 'consensus top 10'. I choose not to ignore the fact that Magic was never in the situation that hakeem of 1994 or duncan of 2003 were placed in. Magic always had it easier than them, that doesnt result in a higher peak. I have no problem seeing jordan and wilt in the top 5, magic doesnt have a top 5 peak, regardless this doesnt matter much to me anyways. Within 5-10 years, lebron will be greater than magic, he already has the better peak.

By the way, im curious, what do you mean by basketball players have the offense ran through them alot more? Are you suggesting that if Magic wanted to, he could dominate statistically like shaq, lebron and jordan did, but was held back by his style of play, lol. I have seen magic play many times, i know the type of player he was, he would have never been on thier level if he was asked to be on a team where the offense is run through him and he only has 1 or 2 decent players on his team. Fantasize as much as you want about magic having the gifts of jordan/shaq/lebron in terms of being able to dominate but he wouldnt because I know he aint as good as them.

Yeah thier is more to basketball than boxscore, its called efficiency and defensive impact, two categories where bird, magic and even dr. j are not in the same league as the players i've mentioned.

Thank you for telling me who I have seen play. Good to know I am being stalked. Saying Dr. J didn't have strong defensvie impact or that Magic always had it easy (see Regul8tor's post on 87 Magic and what he did without Kareem) or that it's harder to put up numbers when you get to dominate the ball every possesion (like really?) makes it hard to take this discussion serious

Edit: DavidStern, why does 2012 pace matter? It was a lockout year in a watered down league. Dr. Js numbers are deflated because in today's era stars get the offense ran through them a lot more. Much easier to put up big numbers as a star wing in today's league than in the ABA.

[therealbig3]

So in the 3-pt era, who else has offenses like the ones you listed for a 5-year stretch? Magic's Lakers, Jordan's Bulls, Nash's Suns. That's about it, no? And obviously, in the context of determining an individual player, we need to make subtle accounts for offense/defense strategy (I agree Boston was more defensively-inclined, look at the OREB% numbers) and for their teammates. And yes, I think assuming the 3-point line doesn't matter is wrong, and I've posted numbers on the matter in this very project.

But that just means that the offenses were consistently elite, but none of them were truly historic. And Nash/Jordan/Magic led clearly better offenses on a consistent basis, so why do you consider Bird above Nash and Jordan as an offensive player?

I can agree with the idea that the focus of being more defensively-minded sacrificed some offense, but like you said, that's a subtle difference, and I don't think that was the difference between historic-looking offenses and "merely" elite offenses. I think 88 had more to do with the fact that Bird had the best offensive regular season of his career, imo, instead of simply a change in focus.

And regarding the 3pt line, from what I remember of what you posted, there were an equal amount of +6 offenses before and after the mid-90s (with the shorter 3pt line), in an equal amount of seasons. So I'm not sure how that shows the 3-point line has caused offenses to have greater separation from the average.

[drza]

Duncan in 02 and 03 clearly surpassed Hakeem in terms of production from what I see with the SPM. In terms of impact, I haven't seen anything to prove that Hakeem had more impact than Duncan. It's small sample sizes for sure, but comparing the with/without of 91 (should be better defensively than 94) and 95 Hakeem (comparable to 94) to 05 Duncan, and 05 Duncan (clearly not his peak) still clearly surpassed Hakeem.

So what gives, why is it so ridiculous to rank Duncan over Hakeem? The best argument for Hakeem is that he played great during the 94 Finals and shut down Ewing. Awesome for him, but that's still only 7 games out of a whole season, and holistically speaking, I think I'm leaning Duncan over Hakeem. At minimum, I'd take Hakeem but barely, and they'll probably go right after each other.

And since I think LeBron/Magic/Bird/Kareem and possibly Walton/Dr. J peaked higher than either of them, that's why I'm not taking Hakeem.

Speaking as someone who'd love to vote Magic here but is finding himself more and more impressed by the bigs when I look at peak...what is it that makes you so certain that Magic/Bird/LeBron peaked higher than both of them?

[Dr Positivity]

Vote 95 Hakeem

Surprised he's not getting more traction here with 2000 Shaq getting 2nd for a similarly dominant inside presence. My general feeling with him is that out of necessity with their lower talent level compared to an 86 Celtics or 87 Lakers, Hakeem had to be USED to a more extreme level than Bird and Magic in the playoffs, to which he delivered in ridiculously good fashion. He had incredible scoring consistency with 20 of the 22 games being 25pts+ performances and an overall 33ppg average which combined with him anchoring the Rockets defense and passing game, gives him a devastatingly complete performance. He absolutely steps up when the Rockets need it, outplaying Malone, Barkley in all 5 of the Rockets elimination games/wins, then we all know what happened vs Robinson and Shaq. This was an extremely hard year with the Iron Throne being up for grabs in MJ's absence/rustiness and Hakeem crushed 4 major rivals in a row. I see this as pretty close to a perfect season and worthy of the #1 spot overall with a few other seasons

[drza]

Bird's teams were defensive minded (no reason a team starting 2 PFs and a 7-1 C should be average when it comes to offensive boards). When they were offensive minded (88) they had one of the best offensive seasons ever. Plus (in the comparison to Nash) they didnt use three pointers that much back then so it was harder to gain a large distance over the competition.

In fairness, it should be noted that LeBron's late Cavs teams were similarly defensive minded and similarly big. LeBron's 2008/2009 frontlines almost always started any 2 of Varejao, Big Ben and Ilgauskas which, mixed with LeBron, made them one of the biggest and more defensive minded teams in basketball. That was a big part of their team strategy, in fact...let the defense keep the game close, the bigs beat up the opponent on the glass, and the shooters be ready to hit from the perimeter...all predicated on James to create the offense that held it all together.

[therealbig3]

Duncan in 02 and 03 clearly surpassed Hakeem in terms of production from what I see with the SPM. In terms of impact, I haven't seen anything to prove that Hakeem had more impact than Duncan. It's small sample sizes for sure, but comparing the with/without of 91 (should be better defensively than 94) and 95 Hakeem (comparable to 94) to 05 Duncan, and 05 Duncan (clearly not his peak) still clearly surpassed Hakeem.

So what gives, why is it so ridiculous to rank Duncan over Hakeem? The best argument for Hakeem is that he played great during the 94 Finals and shut down Ewing. Awesome for him, but that's still only 7 games out of a whole season, and holistically speaking, I think I'm leaning Duncan over Hakeem. At minimum, I'd take Hakeem but barely, and they'll probably go right after each other.

And since I think LeBron/Magic/Bird/Kareem and possibly Walton/Dr. J peaked higher than either of them, that's why I'm not taking Hakeem.

Speaking as someone who'd love to vote Magic here but is finding himself more and more impressed by the bigs when I look at peak...what is it that makes you so certain that Magic/Bird/LeBron peaked higher than both of them?

IMO, I honestly think it's personal preference, because as other people have said, the top 13 can go in almost any order. So I'm not certain about anything lol.

But I think LeBron/Bird/Magic were significantly better offensive players than Duncan and Hakeem, and imo, I don't think their defense totally compensates for that. Very close, but especially considering I think they were all positive impact defenders anyway, especially Bird and even moreso LeBron, I feel more comfortable taking their peaks over Duncan and Hakeem.

LeBron is currently the most intriguing one to me, because I think I can build a historic level offense with the right pieces around him, and I think I can simultaneously build an elite defense around him. So overall, I think he gives me the chance at building the best overall team around his abilities at his peak.

[ThaRegul8r]

Vote 95 Hakeem

Surprised he's not getting more traction here

Because all the Hakeem advocates have gotten behind the previous year's Hakeem, not this one. Even though it was this year's postseason, not the previous one, which had people reassessing where Hakeem ranked on the GOAT list.

And not one person has thought to compare the two seasons when it was said in preliminary discussion that Hakeem was one of the players it was difficult to decide on one particular season from a couple candidates they had.

[Dr Positivity]

For a vote I'll put in Hakeem 94.

I'm still wondering why more aren't voting for him. What more could you ask for in a season.

Just curious, how strongly do you feel about 94 over 95 Hakeem? It seems like 94 Hakeem was definitely better defensively and in the regular season but I find myself more impressed by the clutch playoff exploits of the 95 iteration...

[lorak]

Edit: DavidStern, why does 2012 pace matter? It was a lockout year in a watered down league. Dr. Js numbers are deflated because in today's era stars get the offense ran through them a lot more. Much easier to put up big numbers as a star wing in today's league than in the ABA.

During last decade pace is between ~91 and 92 (once was 92.7 and it's the fastest pace since 2000 when it was... 93.1).
And your last two sentences aren't true. Defenses now are much more advanced than 30 years ago so it's harder to offensive players. And offences ran through superstars even more then. I men, Doc was the only reason why ABA existed so long, so no surprise that they wanted to show him as much as possible. Similar story with KAJ - the only true NBA's superstar during most of the 70s.

[ushvinder88]

^

You do realize basketball has change a lot right? Now stars get the offense ran through them a LOT more. It's a lot easier to put up stats when you touch the ball every single possesion. It gets your confidence up, lets you pick and choose you spots, boosts assists, etc. You act like it's a bad thing that Bird and Magic were flexible enough to dominate the game without needing to hold the ball 15+ seconds every possesion. There would be times when the Lakers would have 6 or so straight possesions without Magic touching the ball. When's the last time you've seeen that happen with Kobe or Lebron?

I get the feeling you don't understand the context of Dr. J's situation in the NBA. There's several good reasons why his "boxscore" numbers dipped. I suggest doing some more research on those late seventies Sixers teams. There's more to the game than boxscore stats.

What more research do I need to do? You never saw the ABA Dr. J play. You can make any excuses you want as to why his efficiency in the nba is not even in the same league as a lebron/mj or shaq, i deal with reality, i dont pretend erving was on thier level.

So its alot easier to put up the numbers that lebron does while maintaining his efficiency? Really, great to know logic runs wild here.

I choose not to ignore the fact that bird and magic are probably the 2 worst defensive players in the 'consensus top 10'. I choose not to ignore the fact that Magic was never in the situation that hakeem of 1994 or duncan of 2003 were placed in. Magic always had it easier than them, that doesnt result in a higher peak. I have no problem seeing jordan and wilt in the top 5, magic doesnt have a top 5 peak, regardless this doesnt matter much to me anyways. Within 5-10 years, lebron will be greater than magic, he already has the better peak.

By the way, im curious, what do you mean by basketball players have the offense ran through them alot more? Are you suggesting that if Magic wanted to, he could dominate statistically like shaq, lebron and jordan did, but was held back by his style of play, lol. I have seen magic play many times, i know the type of player he was, he would have never been on thier level if he was asked to be on a team where the offense is run through him and he only has 1 or 2 decent players on his team. Fantasize as much as you want about magic having the gifts of jordan/shaq/lebron in terms of being able to dominate but he wouldnt because I know he aint as good as them.

Yeah thier is more to basketball than boxscore, its called efficiency and defensive impact, two categories where bird, magic and even dr. j are not in the same league as the players i've mentioned.

Thank you for telling me who I have seen play. Good to know I am being stalked. Saying Dr. J didn't have strong defensvie impact or that Magic always had it easy (see Regul8tor's post on 87 Magic and what he did without Kareem) or that it's harder to put up numbers when you get to dominate the ball every possesion (like really?) makes it hard to take this discussion serious

Edit: DavidStern, why does 2012 pace matter? It was a lockout year in a watered down league. Dr. Js numbers are deflated because in today's era stars get the offense ran through them a lot more. Much easier to put up big numbers as a star wing in today's league than in the ABA.

Really its hard to take my discussions seriously when you are discrediting lebron's accomplishments due to it being in a 'watered down' league, but the guy hes being compared to played in the heavily stacked 'ABA', lol. A player's accomplishments in the ABA is actually being taken seriously, but lebron's accomplishments should be taken with a grain of salt accorinding to your great logic.

I also have no idea what you're talking about when you say players back then didnt have as much ball possession or have the team run through them? Wilt and Kareem had the offense run through them, from 93-96 Hakeem had the offense run through him under rudy's system. Jordan and Bird had plenty of field goal attempts per game.

Not to mention that bird and magic played in an era where the nba averaged 105-110 ppg, just leave that out why dont you. Ignore the fact that they played in the era of inflated boxscore stats. Every star player was putting up 20-25 ppg back then, heck dantley and english were regularly putting up 30, chambers was averaging 28. In today's era magic would be a 20/10/8 type of player at best, with a lower field goal percentage than the inflated 80's. However, yeah keep dreaming that magic could dominate like mj/lebron/shaq if it makes you happy.

[GrangerDanger]

Edit: DavidStern, why does 2012 pace matter? It was a lockout year in a watered down league. Dr. Js numbers are deflated because in today's era stars get the offense ran through them a lot more. Much easier to put up big numbers as a star wing in today's league than in the ABA.

During last decade pace is between ~91 and 92 (once was 92.7 and it's the fastest pace since 2000 when it was... 93.1).
And your last two sentences aren't true. Defenses now are much more advanced than 30 years ago so it's harder to offensive players. And offences ran through superstars even more then. I men, Doc was the only reason why ABA existed so long, so no surprise that they wanted to show him as much as possible. Similar story with KAJ - the only true NBA's superstar during most of the 70s.

Defenses are better now but it isn't true at all that offenses ran more through stars back then, give me a break. MJ and Iverson popularized the 1on5 style offense, and the majority of scorers touch the ball literally every possesion they are in the game. Watch any game in the 70s, offenses were not driven by one or two players like they are now. Rotation players got and took better shots, and stars numbers were hurt as a result. Count the dribbles from Dr. J in each halfcourt set in the 76 Finals and compare it to Lebron in the 09 ECF. You will be blown away by the difference in ball domination.

And just some numbers to show how Dr. J shared the offense, while Lebron dominated it

76 Nets = 5 players with AST% over 15%, 5 players with double digit shot attempts, 7 players with TOV% over 15%, 6 players scored in double figures, 6 players with 4+ FTA/g

09 Cavs= 3 players iwth AST% over 15%, 3 players with double digit shot attempts, 4 players with TOV% over 15%, 4 players scored in double figures, 1 player wth 4+ FTA/g

[lorak]

Why you compare Doc with LJ? LeBron is exception, just like Magic was. Both very ball dominant players and no way they were like most of the players during their times.