Josh Smith/Andrei Kirilenko?

[Doctor MJ]

It's not a popular opinion and goes against stereotypes but...

Kirilenko is more physically gifted than Josh Smith. It doesn't come down to 'brains'.

I realize that saying the white guy is smarter is a stereotype, but there are times when a particular white guy is clearly smarter than a particular black guy.

And I'm saying AK47 is a better ball handler and just bigger all arouund - helps with passing lane steals, blocks and getting his jumper off easier. The game is easier for a bigger guy like AK. I'm saying Smith isn't as gifted as AK47.

I don't understand how you can watch Smith, a poor free throw shooter, take contested long twos with regularity and not see he has judgment issues? For crying out loud, the man was 3rd int he entire league in shot attempts from 16-23 feet last year. That's ridiculous.

How would you suggest he score?
The Hawks play 5 out and want Smith picking and fading so guards can drive and the paint is wide open. But when the paint is packed you have to kick it out to Smith.

In other words they play Nellie Ball and Smith is their Al Harrington. They want Smith out there. in fact google 'Camp Drew Hawks ajc" and you'll find a public domain pic of the hawks coaches playing 4 out 1 in. They treat Smith as a perimeter player.

Sure people can say he's dumb because he should drive more but he's not as good as AK47 at handling the ball.

People say he makes stupid decisions but what is he supposed to do? Kirilenko had freakish agility for his size and length that Smith doesn't. Smith is/was measured as average NBA length for a 3. 6'8 and 7'0 wingspan -similar to Carmelo, Lebron, Pierce. Kirilenko I'm sure is closer to 6'10 and 7'4.

It's not an issue of stupid vs smart. Kirilenko is clearly more freakish and has been able to handle the ball his whole career, something Smith will never develop.

With his wingspan and height to still have had that agility, AK was more of a physical anomaly than Smith and everything for Smith is harder compared to AK47. Only thing that closes the gap is his vert.

Smith plays PF usually but as a SF he has to work on cuts and PnR action etc. To get a lane to drive around SFs. he is a phenom in transition and defensively, but in halfcourt you have to run big man plays: PnRs with him, post ups. Whereas Kirilenko in his prime could do all that AND drive on PFs and SFs alike.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhe8WgUJGoA[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yajcf-RCaZ8[/youtube]
Whereas Ak47 can drive and twist in the air for a layup. Smith doesn't have that ballhandling or agility.
Its not stupidity its lack of same physical gifts/skill. And fwiw he works hard on his game (working with Olajuwon before Kobe, Dwight, Lebron etc. and this season Idan Ravin) but his ball handling has peaked.

Smith was a similar SF/PF but AK47's "brilliance" came from natural handles AND both are phenoms in transition but AK47 was obviously more physically gifted as far as agility for his superior height and length.

You can't really look at an AK47 tape and say "Josh Smith can do that" without adding the caveat that "he just has to try harder". Hence AK47 was naturally more gifted (ie more freakish), than Smith. ie him jumping 10 inches and dunking it on alley oops, or blocking shots on his tippy toes, or his freakish length on steals.

The play at 0:50 in particular is an offensive play, that Josh Smith has never been able to do in 7-8 seasons. Also the ballhandling and length and agility for the falling wrap around pass at 1:49. And the twisting shot at 5:00 mark, still able to keep balance and shoot over everyone.

Smith can jump high but he isnt as freakish as Kirilenko.

Well this is a good post with lots of great info.

To our point of contention though, you say "Given where the Hawks put Smith, how else do you expect him to score?"

The answer is, I don't. I don't ever want my first scoring option to shoot as badly as Smith, and if he were to shoot that bad, I'd at least expect that he was creating for others along the way, which Smith doesn't. Smith is playing a scoring role which he simply shouldn't be doing. You don't shoot to get a quota of points, you shoot if that's the best player for you offense.

The one semi-rebuttal I could imagine there being is someone asserting that Smith is only doing this because the Hakws are telling him to do exactly this. If you have quotes backing this up it would be good to see, but Smith has been confronted with basically everyone in the world asking what the heck he's thinking taking these jump shots and the responses I've seen all seem to indicate Antoine Walker syndrome: He's dong it because he wants to play that way.

If the Hawks truly are behind this awful strategy, well then I may owe Smith an apology for assuming his lack of BBIQ, but even with that, Smith has certainly not demonstrated the savvy that Kirilenko has. If it's a question of the smarter basketball player given what we've seen, the answer has to be Kirilenko.

[lukekarts]

I think these two are remarkably close, more so than most people have suggested in the topic so far - and I say that as a big fan of Kirilenko.

The one notable difference between them is offensive efficiency, and this is the area I struggle to compare, mainly because I've never seen Smith play with a good PG so I'm unsure if his efficiency or supposed low BBIQ is a derivative of Atlanta's system or whether it is just generally being not quite smart enough.

As a defensive player, particularly last season, I think he comes close to AK's prime. Smoove's 11/12 is a little overlooked by some, but he helped anchor the Hawks to a pretty good record considering they were without Horford. As a rebounder, Smoove clearly edges AK, but it's not as though either are particularly dominant rebounders.

I'd probably take AK47's peak over Smith; but I really want to see Smith play with a good point guard to be sure.

[kasino]

one season is enough to credit someone entire career?
a season that came from a team that couldn't make the PS his best season or 2nd best season
do you understand what your writing, or do you just like writing

If the brevity of his peak was your concern, you should have said to at the beginning. Now it just seems like you're putting it out there as one more excuse without having done the extra googling you should have.

Kirilenko was even better the next year until he experienced the first of several injuries that really brought him down. There's no real cause to be concerned that his career was to brief to treated as legit. He was a phenomenal athlete who didn't move as well after the injuries.

Re: Team couldn't make PS. What did I SAY dude?

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Probably because you're not actually trying to understand my point, you're just trying to knock holes in the opinion of someone who doesn't agree with you. Sheesh. If you don't believe Kirilenko's game could scale to a better team, give specific arguments as to why. Simply throwing out there that his best season led to only a decent season, when I explicitly said it was "decent" up front requires no basketball knowledge at all, and persuades no one of anything.

no one is trying to knock this man
he didn't scale he was simply a 4th option once he had talent on his team, no change from season to season just your 4th best player
his best scoring isn't really impressive, only 2 seasons of 15 and one of 16...what team is he your best scorer in winning situations?
these aren't excuses but what he he actually was, a player who didn't go up and down in the pecking order on a decent team and when on a non playoff team wasn't showing scoring that typical 1st options give
he is capable of being the best offensive player on a team that doesn't make the PS, if that was the sentence that was given I would have agreed

[Ruhiel]

I don't ever want my first scoring option to shoot as badly as Smith, and if he were to shoot that bad, I'd at least expect that he was creating for others along the way, which Smith doesn't.

Of all SFs and PFs Josh Smith's 3.9 assists rank 4th behind only: LeBron James, 6.2, Andre Iguodala, 5.5, Paul Pierce, 4.5.
Kirilenko's career high is 4.3.

Smith is playing a scoring role which he simply shouldn't be doing.The one semi-rebuttal I could imagine there being is someone asserting that Smith is only doing this because the Hawks are telling him to do exactly this. If you have quotes backing this up it would be good to see...

The Hawks have never had a post threat. So they rely on players to penetrate and then kick.
Where do PFs play? The perimeter. Pick and pop. It stands to reason the smaller you are the less you play inside.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRclMIE8DB8[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS92xrjkSKg[/youtube]

If you want Smith to take jumpers play him as the PF. If you want him to stop play him at the 3 and Horford/Ivan Johnson gets the jumpers. It's that simple.

, but Smith has been confronted with basically everyone in the world asking what the heck he's thinking taking these jump shots and the responses I've seen all seem to indicate Antoine Walker syndrome: He's dong it because he wants to play that way.If the Hawks truly are behind this awful strategy, well then I may owe Smith an apology --

Smith hasn't been confronted by anyone that, in his words, "knows basketball". Like I said, the of a PF is pick and pop. If he isnt supposed to be jumpshooting put him at the SF. Where he can hit the boards as Ivan Johnson or Horford plays the elbow.

..assuming his lack of BBIQ, but even with that, Smith has certainly not demonstrated the savvy that Kirilenko has. If it's a question of the smarter basketball player given what we've seen, the answer has to be Kirilenko.

Well savvy = skill. And fwiw there are a lot of quotes with teammates and coaches saying Smith memorizes (and presumably executes) the playbook better than anyone else on team.

[fatal9]

This is Kirilenko easily. Better player on both ends.

Offensively, his jumper is mediocre but unlike Smith he is a very good off the ball player. Not so in terms of stretching your defense, but AK had a high motor on the court and just found his way to get free on offense for easy points (via cuts, slipping off screens, or just by wearing out his man etc). That combined with better shot selection is how he manages to score efficiently while Smith didn't despite both guys having similar flaws in their skills. He did have enough skills to create his own shot and attack the defense, but not at the level of a good first/second option (neither does Smith...but he doesn't seem to realize it). He's also someone you can use to play a bit of point forward, he used to feed the post, run plays from high post and had great natural instincts on where the ball needs to go. Kirilenko was aware of his own offensive limitations, Smith is not (though Smith probably learns the game differently under Sloan, AK just has better natural instincts). As a result, Kirilenko despite those limitations, you can trust on offense...Josh Smith? Absolutely not. With him you just have to hope it's that one day in the week where his jumper is going to look good.

It goes way beyond raw ppg numbers, Smith puts up couple more ppg but at the expense of a) bad efficiency (51.8 TS% for career, basically floats around that....Kirilenko is at 57.1 TS%), b) horrible offense killing, fast break igniting shots, c) a lazy off the ball player vs. a smart high motor off ball guy who gets your offense easy baskets and d) worse/less versatile playmaking. I don't really see how it's close. Smith, in his current state, I'm not even sure is a guy who positively contributes to a team's half court offense.

And defensively, he was basically a more active, intelligent and physically gifted vesion of Josh Smith (who is a good team defender as well). I agree with the point that Kirilenko actually has better physical tools, Smith can jump higher, tests better at the combine I'm guessing, but doesn't have that extra freakish lankyness, lateral quickness and overall agility or reflexes. Defensively I think AK is better player with his frame/gifts than if he had Smiths. I have healthy Kirilenko as the best non-big help defender of the 2000s. I don't think people realize this, but Kirilenko at his peak had a much better blk% than even guys like D-Rob, Hakeem, Ewing ever put up. Unreal how well he covered the floor and how great his reaction, reflexes, recovery and timing were.

[Gikeo]

This is Kirilenko easily. Better player on both ends.

Offensively, his jumper is mediocre but unlike Smith he is a very good off the ball player. Not so in terms of stretching your defense, but AK had a high motor on the court and just found his way to get free on offense for easy points (via cuts, slipping off screens, or just by wearing out his man etc). That combined with better shot selection is how he manages to score efficiently while Smith didn't despite both guys having similar flaws in their skills. He did have enough skills to create his own shot and attack the defense, but not at the level of a good first/second option (neither does Smith...but he doesn't seem to realize it). He's also someone you can use to play a bit of point forward, he used to feed the post, run plays from high post and had great natural instincts on where the ball needs to go. Kirilenko was aware of his own offensive limitations, Smith is not (though Smith probably learns the game differently under Sloan, AK just has better natural instincts). As a result, Kirilenko despite those limitations, you can trust on offense...Josh Smith? Absolutely not. With him you just have to hope it's that one day in the week where his jumper is going to look good.

It goes way beyond raw ppg numbers, Smith puts up couple more ppg but at the expense of a) bad efficiency (51.8 TS% for career, basically floats around that....Kirilenko is at 57.1 TS%), b) horrible offense killing, fast break igniting shots, c) a lazy off the ball player vs. a smart high motor off ball guy who gets your offense easy baskets and d) worse/less versatile playmaking. I don't really see how it's close. Smith, in his current state, I'm not even sure is a guy who positively contributes to a team's half court offense.

And defensively, he was basically a more active, intelligent and physically gifted vesion of Josh Smith (who is a good team defender as well). I agree with the point that Kirilenko actually has better physical tools, Smith can jump higher, tests better at the combine I'm guessing, but doesn't have that extra freakish lankyness, lateral quickness and overall agility or reflexes. Defensively I think AK is better player with his frame/gifts than if he had Smiths. I have healthy Kirilenko as the best non-big help defender of the 2000s. I don't think people realize this, but Kirilenko at his peak had a much better blk% than even guys like D-Rob, Hakeem, Ewing ever put up. Unreal how well he covered the floor and how great his reaction, reflexes, recovery and timing were.

you should post more.

[TwentyOne920]

If the Wolves get 75% of Jazz AK47 or the Russian League MVP AK47 they'll make a huge leap.