Build around KG or DIRK?

[Texas Chuck]

Nowitzki is better than him on offense, but he is a stretch 4, not an ideal type of player to build around.

.

I will respond to your entire post but this statement is so inaccurate that I want to make sure everyone sees it.

[Texas Chuck]

Now

Dirk has never ever been a "Stretch 4". He is a complete offensive player.

I agree KG is much more versatile from a position standpoint. Im not sure I would try and play him full time in the backcourt esp pg but he certainly can play 3 frontcourt positions at an all-star level.

Dirk is pretty much a 4 and a 4 only. He can give you minutes at center and when he was younger minutes at 3 but he is going to be far more effective at pf.

KG is a better rebounder but its a lot closer than you think. Dirk is a really good defensive rebounder. He isnt nearly the offensive rebounder KG is both becuase of ability and how each player has been used.

KG is a better traditional playmaker. He has more assist than Dirk. Slightly more than 1 more a game in the playoffs throughout their careers. Dirk however creates more open shots for teammates simply by his presence on the court and the amount of doubles he requires.

KG is a much better defender. Huge advantage here for him

KG is not a better leader. He is a more vocal leader which is very important. However he also loses points by regularly berating teammates, not being able to play well with white/foreign players at times, and getting himself tossed from playoff games. Ask any of the guys who played with Dirk. They would go through a wall for the guy. He leads by work ethic and play on the court. Ill call it a push but any edge should go to Dirk

Dirk is a better scorer. A lot better scorer. You really undersold this.

25/15/5 got you swept, knocked out in 1st round, and WCF. Props for the WCF run. KG was a beast. Other years less impressive esp the team who swept him was Dirk's and Dirk put up 33/15 on much better efficiency in that series.

And when we look at career playoff numbers the gap widens. 26/10/58% TS vs 20/11/52% TS. KG also gives you one more assist per game and 1/2 block. He also plays much better defense. Still pretty hard for you to make the case that KG is a superior playoff performer.

Your last statement is pretty absurd but you are correct that Dirk cant do that. Of course KG cant either so....

[TheXFactor]

Dirk

11 season sealed the deal.

More of a closer, that is who I want to build around

[ardee]

Now

Dirk has never ever been a "Stretch 4". He is a complete offensive player.

I agree KG is much more versatile from a position standpoint. Im not sure I would try and play him full time in the backcourt esp pg but he certainly can play 3 frontcourt positions at an all-star level.

Dirk is pretty much a 4 and a 4 only. He can give you minutes at center and when he was younger minutes at 3 but he is going to be far more effective at pf.

KG is a better rebounder but its a lot closer than you think. Dirk is a really good defensive rebounder. He isnt nearly the offensive rebounder KG is both becuase of ability and how each player has been used.

KG is a better traditional playmaker. He has more assist than Dirk. Slightly more than 1 more a game in the playoffs throughout their careers. Dirk however creates more open shots for teammates simply by his presence on the court and the amount of doubles he requires.

KG is a much better defender. Huge advantage here for him

KG is not a better leader. He is a more vocal leader which is very important. However he also loses points by regularly berating teammates, not being able to play well with white/foreign players at times, and getting himself tossed from playoff games. Ask any of the guys who played with Dirk. They would go through a wall for the guy. He leads by work ethic and play on the court. Ill call it a push but any edge should go to Dirk

Dirk is a better scorer. A lot better scorer. You really undersold this.


25/15/5 got you swept, knocked out in 1st round, and WCF. Props for the WCF run. KG was a beast. Other years less impressive esp the team who swept him was Dirk's and Dirk put up 33/15 on much better efficiency in that series.

And when we look at career playoff numbers the gap widens. 26/10/58% TS vs 20/11/52% TS. KG also gives you one more assist per game and 1/2 block. He also plays much better defense. Still pretty hard for you to make the case that KG is a superior playoff performer.

Your last statement is pretty absurd but you are correct that Dirk cant do that. Of course KG cant either so....

I have highlighted the points I disagree with.

1. That is not a logical statement to make, you are clearly not differentiating between his teams and him. 2004 was the only time he had any semblance of a decent supporting cast. The fact that he even took the Shaqobe Lakers to 6 games with the kind of team-mates he had, with some epic performances along the way (35-20-7 on 15-21 shooting, are you kidding me?!), is darn impressive.

Give a peak Garnett Nash and Finley and we're talking dyansty.

I never said KG is the clear cut better postseason performer, just that there's a definite argument between the two.

Um, I suggest you watch the 2003 series vs. the Lakers. Garnett was doing it all for the Wolves on both ends. Drza had a really good post illustrating just how dependent the Wolves were on KG those peak years. I'll dig it up and show it to you.

[Texas Chuck]

Peak KG and the Nash and Finley that Dirk played with arent a dynasty. Also Note Dirk was 25 when Nash left. He certainly wasnt at his peak yet then.

KG cant give you 20/15/great efficiency and play pg all at the same time. I am not arguing what he is capable of which is a freaking ton. Your statement tho was hyperbolic to the point of absurdity.

And finally I dont think you are going to find much support that KG is as good a playoff performer as Dirk. I think in the RS you can make a strong case that KG is the better player but Dirk's edge is so significant in the playoffs that I give him the overall edge.

edit: And I think the playoff sweep where Dirk outplayed KG is absolutely relevant. This wasnt a case of Dirk's better team being the reason KG got swept. Dirk outplayed him head to head. Sure he had a better team and HCA but he also beat him heads up on the court.

[ardee]

Peak KG and the Nash and Finley that Dirk played with arent a dynasty. Also Note Dirk was 25 when Nash left. He certainly wasnt at his peak yet then.

KG cant give you 20/15/great efficiency and play pg all at the same time. I am not arguing what he is capable of which is a freaking ton. Your statement tho was hyperbolic to the point of absurdity.

And finally I dont think you are going to find much support that KG is as good a playoff performer as Dirk. I think in the RS you can make a strong case that KG is the better player but Dirk's edge is so significant in the playoffs that I give him the overall edge.

edit: And I think the playoff sweep where Dirk outplayed KG is absolutely relevant. This wasnt a case of Dirk's better team being the reason KG got swept. Dirk outplayed him head to head. Sure he had a better team and HCA but he also beat him heads up on the court.

Peak KG gives you an elite defense by himself if he doesn't have to focus on offense all the time. Give him even a pre-prime Nash, and the offense makes a giant, massive leap. Then a second option like scorer in Finley, and the possibilities are endless.

In the 2003-05 regular seasons he averaged 23.1 ppg and 13.6 rpg on 56% TS.. He also managed 5.6 apg, for the offense was running through him at all times. During the Playoffs in 02-04 he DID go 25-15 and was the primary distributor AND primary defensive anchor.

Again, I'm not saying there's a clear separation between either of them in the postseason. Dirk was definitely a far better scorer, but could he dominate all facets of a game like Garnett could.

Here's drza's post, it might give you insight into the level Garnett was playing at during 02-04

Few things.

1) LeBron '12s playoff obstacles were nowhere near Garnett '04s. An attenuated Wade is arguably as good as Cassell at his best...and as I already pointed out, Cassell was struggling with injury long before he started sitting out. KG had much less to work with on offense against the Kings than LeBron did at any point in these playoffs, and of course in the Lakers series it got ridiculous. Point is, LeBron's "delivery" in 2012 doesn't equate to a better chance of success for the '04 Wolves.

2) You mention KG having some poor shooting games against the Kings and him not "singlehandedly taking over games offensively". OK, then you have to acknowledge that he was "singlehandedly taking over games on defense" against the Kings. Over the 7 game series the Kings averaged 93 points on 41% FG for a team O-Rtg of 100.1...they averaged 102.8 points on 46.3% shooting on the year for a team O-Rtg of 110.3 (2nd in league). A -10.2 effort on the 2nd best offense in the league has to be considered dominant, right?

3) In fact, it can go further. In the Wolves' 4 wins over the Kings, they held them to 89 ppg on 38.5% FG (one of the games was OT) for a 94.3 ORTG (-16 from their season average). In those same 4 wins KG averaged 14.8 boards, 4.8 blocks and 2.5 steals.

In addition to the defensive dominance, KG also "chipped in" with 28.3 points on 56.2% TS in the victories. In those 4 games KG's average game score was over 25, capped with the legendary game 7 with a game score of 32.3! On his "weak" side of the ball.

It seems to me that KG had to be Superman at both ends of the floor for the Wolves to even have a shot to beat the Kings...and he did. That doesn't count as "delivering" like '12 James? LeBron was doing more than that to lead the '12 Heat to wins? If so, I must have missed it.

great response. I know it was impossible to win a title for KG that year. LeBron wouldn't have done it either. my point was that LeBron was playing legendary offense and was still a great defender in that postseason. while Garnett rocked the world defensively, he was inconsistent offensively because his jumpshots were not always falling down. I don't know, maybe it's because he had so much responsibilities that he couldn't maintain his efficiency ? either way, I know he had some disappointing shooting games at the beginning of the Wolves series, when he didn't have to do everything by himself yet. those defensive stats are monstrous though... 15/5/2.5 anchoring -16 DRTG ? wow. I guess I have to re-watch that series.

The thing is, it wasn't just that series. One of the fun things about these projects is I always end up learning something new. After going through the Kings '04 series more in depth, I decided to look at all of peak KG's wins over the elite competition ('03 Lakers, '04 Kings, '04 Lakers). The Wolves won 8 out of 19 games over those 2 series. Here are the results from those 8 wins:

The opponent averaged 90.5 points on 39.5% FG in those 8 games for an ORtg of 96.9. The Kings (4 games, season ORtg 110.2), '03 Lakers (2 games, season ORtg 105.5) and '04 Lakers (2 games, season ORtg 107.2) had a weighted average ORtg of 108.3. That's a composite -11.4 on defense for the Wolves in the 8 wins. (And both of those Lakers teams performed at higher levels than their season averages when their core guys were healthy, which they were against the Wolves. ElGee can give you the specifics on how much better). By the way, those Wolves had no other elite defenders except KG, and they were playing in a Flip Saunders system with zero defensive focus.

In those 8 wins, Garnett averaged 29.4 points on 56.9% TS, 15.4 boards, 3.8 assists, 2.1 steals, 3.3 blocks, and an average game score of 26.0. And remember, this is all at very low paces historically. The Wolves' pace was around 90, while the '77 Blazers were at 108 and the 60s were faster still. If we pace adjusted to those times, we'd be looking at scoring on the order of Wilt's or Kareem's career playoff highs.

And it should be noted that of the 8 wins, 5 of them were by 5 points or less and 2 were in overtime. So they were BARELY winning...KG had to perform at this level for them to even squeak out wins over elite opponents.

So in summary, for those Wolves to win, KG had to score like Wilt, play defense like Russell, and run his team's offense from the high-post like Walton (if not running the PG outright).

NOBODY in history was doing that. If he could have pulled off that level of play in that many areas every night it would have been by far the best peak in NBA history. That he was able to do it in almost half of the playoff games against elite opponents at his peak is absurd.

KG went into every one of those playoff games knowing that if he even wanted a CHANCE to win he had to go for 30 and 15 while completely shutting down the opposing team single handedly (and yes, this is a fair time to use that term) while also running the offense and getting his teammates in position to score as well. If he was only "super elite" his team was getting beat...if he was only perfect in two or three of those areas, his team was getting beat. He had to go "best that ever played" mode across the board for them to even have a shot. And he almost did it, dominating in multiple of those areas every game and succeeding in hitting perfection across the board about once every other game. No way LeBron '12 (or '09) is touching that level of dominance at both ends of the floor and all aspects of the game. Neither is Walton '77 or Dr. J '76. KG was a monster at his peak.

[ahonui06]

Nowitzki is better than him on offense, but he is a stretch 4, not an ideal type of player to build around.

DIRK is not a stretch 4. He does more than sit on the perimeter and jack up 3s. DIRK is an elite PF and can score from anywhere on the court.

And obviously DIRK is more of an ideal player to build around as evidenced by his title as the man. You can't build around KG because he isn't a closer and can't take over games down the stretch.

KG is a much better rebounder, playmaker, defender and leader.

KG is a slightly better rebounder and a much better defender. DIRK's playmaking abilities have vastly improved since he entered the league and he gets tons of hockey assists in the Mavs system after he kicks out of double teams. KG is more passive by nature so he looks for the extra man more often than DIRK. DIRK is just a natural scorer and thus looks for his shot more often. Leadership wise it's a wash. Just because you yell, scream, talk to yourself, and whack your forehead repeatedly does not make you a great leader. DIRK's leadership is by example and his extreme work ethic.

If people want to point to Playoff performances, please remember that KG averaged 25-15-5 in the postseason three years in a row.

Call me when Dirk can be your point guard, pull down 15 rpg, score over 20 ppg with good efficiency, and anchor your defense all at the same time.

Playoff performances is a no contest. DIRK never missed the playoffs three years in a row in his prime and he got out of the first round more than once in 12 seasons. And of course, DIRK won as the man in his original franchise without another all-star on his roster while going through 7 All-NBA players and defeating 3 teams with 2 or more All-NBA players (Lakers, Thunder, Heat). Not to mention statistically, DIRK's efficiency in the postseason is just much more impressive than Garnett's as well. DIRK is 26/10 on 46-38-89 with 58 TS% and 23.6 PER while KG is 20/11 on 48-29-79 with 52 TS% and 21.5 PER.

[Rapcity_11]

And obviously DIRK is more of an ideal player to build around as evidenced by his title as the man. You can't build around KG because he isn't a closer and can't take over games down the stretch.

You can't even make 1(!) post without blatantly contradicting another stance you have.

[Texas Chuck]

Ardee,

Again Im not arguing with you on all of the things KG does and does really well. He is an absolutely fantastic player and a freak of nature. The guy is a spectacular player and he has spectacular numbers for stretches of his career. What I am trying to point out is that Dirk also putting up ridic numbers and combining that with meaningful team success seperates Dirk from Minny KG. Boston KG doesnt put up the huge numbers that Minny KG does but he is leading that team to a great deal of team success. More team success than any 5 year stretch Dirk can put up.

The difference is Dirk puts up the huge numbers from his 3rd year on with no drop off then elevates his entire game in the PS and his team wins every year. KG is like the tale of 2 careers both of which are really good but neither of which is as complete as Dirks.

You seem to have this notion that all Dirk does is score but thats simply not the case. He is a terrific offensive anchor. In fact probably one of the 5 greatest in playoff history. He is also a dominant rebounder. Look at his PS rebounding numbers esp those before Matrix came in and starting helping him clear the boards. He is a better than average defender(not close to KG obv) who guards the post really well, blocks shots, and has really quick hands defensively. Hes not good guarding the PnR and obv Dallas hides him defensively when they can to avoid foul trouble and to save his energy for the offensive end. Dallas also has run their offense thru him forever. From Nash/Dirk PnR to Terry/Dirk PnR to the elbow isos and lately to his highly developed post game. He generates more good shots for teammates than KG ever did even when KG is playing a direct facilitator role.

He also allows Dallas to fill their roster with defensive guys like Damp,Diop,Adrian Griffin,Deshawn,old Kidd,Tyson,Haywood, and shooters like JET,Finley,JJB,Peja,old Kidd again etc... His ability to generate offense single-handedly allows Dallas to surround him with role players--much like SAS does. Then people get the idea that Duncan and Dirk have been surrounded by great casts when in reality a lot of them are JAGs.

[ardee]

Nowitzki is better than him on offense, but he is a stretch 4, not an ideal type of player to build around.

DIRK is not a stretch 4. He does more than sit on the perimeter and jack up 3s. DIRK is an elite PF and can score from anywhere on the court.

And obviously DIRK is more of an ideal player to build around as evidenced by his title as the man. You can't build around KG because he isn't a closer and can't take over games down the stretch.

KG is a much better rebounder, playmaker, defender and leader.

KG is a slightly better rebounder and a much better defender. DIRK's playmaking abilities have vastly improved since he entered the league and he gets tons of hockey assists in the Mavs system after he kicks out of double teams. KG is more passive by nature so he looks for the extra man more often than DIRK. DIRK is just a natural scorer and thus looks for his shot more often. Leadership wise it's a wash. Just because you yell, scream, talk to yourself, and whack your forehead repeatedly does not make you a great leader. DIRK's leadership is by example and his extreme work ethic.

If people want to point to Playoff performances, please remember that KG averaged 25-15-5 in the postseason three years in a row.

Call me when Dirk can be your point guard, pull down 15 rpg, score over 20 ppg with good efficiency, and anchor your defense all at the same time.

Playoff performances is a no contest. DIRK never missed the playoffs three years in a row in his prime and he got out of the first round more than once in 12 seasons. And of course, DIRK won as the man in his original franchise without another all-star on his roster while going through 7 All-NBA players and defeating 3 teams with 2 or more All-NBA players (Lakers, Thunder, Heat). Not to mention statistically, DIRK's efficiency in the postseason is just much more impressive than Garnett's as well. DIRK is 26/10 on 46-38-89 with 58 TS% and 23.6 PER while KG is 20/11 on 48-29-79 with 52 TS% and 21.5 PER.

1. What exactly was that Boston title, pray? Who was the best player?

2. Dirk is good at just kicking the ball out to the open man, but Garnett is on a different level. He could actually play point guard whenever needed.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVQwMl2NDI[/youtube]

He was not, I repeat, NOT a point-forward, who got the ball in the high post and made plays from there. In this game he was playing point GUARD: he brought the ball up the court and was playing like a normal 1.

Nowitzki cannot contend with that. He just can't.

And Dirk has never exceeded a TRB% of 14.8. Garnett has beat that number in every season except his first three. They are NOT comparable as rebounders.

3. You're just quoting shooting numbers to make your point. Are you forgetting what I just proved to you, that Garnett was a better rebounder, defender and playmaker?

Not saying that he's a better playoff performer then Nowitzki but when you just ignore the valid points and continue to shoot off the exact same pro-Nowitzki 'argument' you do in every thread about him, it's kinda hard to have an informed and intelligent discussion.

[MisterWestside]

He also allows Dallas to fill their roster with defensive guys like Damp,Diop,Adrian Griffin,Deshawn,old Kidd,Tyson,Haywood, and shooters like JET,Finley,JJB,Peja,old Kidd again etc... His ability to generate offense single-handedly allows Dallas to surround him with role players--much like SAS does.

But those are all players who can come in and do the job around Dirk. Not all role-players or complementary pieces are equal. They play with Dirk, know their roles and don't disrupt chemistry.

Compare that to KG's teammates like the brilliant, "team-first" Sprewell and Ricky Davis. Want me to post the triple-double video again?

[Texas Chuck]

For hopefully the last freaking time:

yes Dirk had better teammates than KG. No doubt.

I get so tired of having to type the obvious over and over because KG supporters keep going back to that tired and surely dead horse.

Only in the curious case of Dirk v KG do role players become worth 20 wins a year and playoff series wins. I know of no other serious debate that keeps going back to this same old thing.

[AshyLarry]

i posted this in the other thread but ill put it here anyway:

little out of topic but ill say it anyway:

people love talking about how "KG always had bad teammates," yet no one talked about how he crippled the team by having the best contract in the NBA at that time, even duncan's earning wasnt that high. yes i get that he was an elite player at the time (and he does deserve every penny), but why is it that he didnt think about giving the team a discount so they can have better players so that he can have a chance to win? considering he was going against dirk's mavs, webber's kings, duncan's spurs, and shaq and kobe's lakers, i would tell the front office and say "ok ill give us some breathing space, heres some money, go find us better key players". the WCF was very stacked, if you really wanted to win, as the franchise player, as the MVP, you are just as responsible providing some space for the team to sign some real key players. duncan did it, shaq did it, dirk did it.

but i will say that in a couple of seasons that KG had PP, ray allen, rondo is still a lot better than dirk had his "good key role players, (wether it was the nash finley era, the josh howard jason terry era, even the tyson chandler, jason terry, shawn marion era) so i wouldnt exactly give KG some sympathy points

[ahonui06]

1. What exactly was that Boston title, pray? Who was the best player?

That Boston title was a great achievement for my Celtics. However, KG wasn't the far and away best player on that team. Garnett also had The Truth during those playoffs who was an all-star and came up big during a variety of games. It's not the same. DIRK had no all-stars on his title run with a much tougher road to the Finals. KG had two other all-stars on his title run and a lighter road to the Finals.

2. Dirk is good at just kicking the ball out to the open man, but Garnett is on a different level. He could actually play point guard whenever needed.

He was not, I repeat, NOT a point-forward, who got the ball in the high post and made plays from there. In this game he was playing point GUARD: he brought the ball up the court and was playing like a normal 1.

Nowitzki cannot contend with that. He just can't.

DIRK's ball-handling abilities are on par with KG's. I already admitted that KG is a slightly better playmaker than DIRK because he is more passive in nature and isn't a score-first type of player like DIRK. However, DIRK distorts the defense with his ability to draw defensive attention and allows his teammates to get in position for wide open looks. This is the reason DIRK gets lots of hockey assists in the Dallas offense.

FYI, I don't want my PF to become a point forward. It doesn't really help out the team.

And Dirk has never exceeded a TRB% of 14.8. Garnett has beat that number in every season except his first three. They are NOT comparable as rebounders.

DIRK RS: 3.7 ORB%, 21.9 DRB%, 12.9 TRB%
DIRK PS: 4.2 ORB%, 24.6 DRB%, 14.3 TRB%

KG RS: 7.8 ORB%, 25.7 DRB%, 17.0 TRB%
KG PS: 7.3 ORB%, 26.2 DRB%, 17.0 TRB%

Considering DIRK spends the majority of time operating near the mid-post and as the primary scorer of his team his offensive rebounding numbers will naturally be lower. KG is a much better offensive rebounder than DIRK. However, defensive rebounding is much closer. The playoff rebounding numbers really indicate that. KG is a slightly better rebounder than DIRK, and yes they are comparable. DIRK's rebounding is trending downwards now since he is losing athleticism as he gets older and he was never really athletic to begin with in the first place.

3. You're just quoting shooting numbers to make your point. Are you forgetting what I just proved to you, that Garnett was a better rebounder, defender and playmaker?

Considering that DIRK is historically one of the greatest scorers and shooters in NBA history I think it's safe to say that I can use his shooting numbers to prove a point. I didn't forget about your other points. I conceded initially that KG is a better defensive player than DIRK. I've never said DIRK was a better defender than KG. Rebounding is a slight edge to KG, but DIRK is an elite postseason rebounder. As a playmaker, I also gave the KG the slight edge, but I don't want my franchise big man to be a facilitator anyways. I want my big man franchise player to be a scorer first and foremost.

Not saying that he's a better playoff performer then Nowitzki but when you just ignore the valid points and continue to shoot off the exact same pro-Nowitzki 'argument' you do in every thread about him, it's kinda hard to have an informed and intelligent discussion.

We are having an intelligent discussion right now. Just don't keep spouting that DIRK is a stretch 4. I don't say that KG is a defensive role player.

[MisterWestside]

TC, you keep saying that you agree that Dirk had better teammates around him, and yet you post things like this:

Only in the curious case of Dirk v KG do role players become worth 20 wins a year and playoff series wins.

It's worthy. It's like saying, "Yeah, I admit productive teammates are obviously important if any star wants to win, but whatever, DIRK'S BETTER BECAUSE HE WINS MORE!" It's circular.

[MisterWestside]

Dirk had no all-stars on his title run with a much tougher road to the Finals.

It's tiresome to remind you that a player doesn't need to play with any NAMED all-stars for people to recognize that he played with a great supporting cast.

FYI, I don't want my PF to become a point forward. It doesn't really help out the team.

It's what his team ASKED him to do. In ardee's video example, KG ran the point more because their main PG Cassell was off in that game.

[Texas Chuck]

Raven,

Get ready to give me a vacation I guess. You keep letting them bait me with their nonsense. I have kept it from getting personal but a guy can only take so much....


MR W.

Do you really think role players are worth 20 more wins? Because I gave KG the benefit of the doubt. I could have picked out 25 or 30.

You seem to think Dirk had slightly better role players so of course he should have much greater team success.

I am saying Dirk had better teammates in quality and fit but not enough to make up over 20 games a year and 10 playoff series wins. You need to do a better job of justifying your opinion rather than just calling me out over and over.

I dont think you can justify it which is why you havent tried.

[MisterWestside]

Do you really think role players are worth 20 more wins?

When the team plays with a star with great fit, great coaching, and the supporting cast does their job on the floor, yes. Like I said, not all role players/coaches/coaching systems are made the same.

[Texas Chuck]

Wow. Id love to see if anyone else agrees with you in that regard. I think the star makes the team not the team makes the star. But maybe Im on an island here. Would love to hear some non-pro KG guys on this one.

[ahonui06]

Wow. Id love to see if anyone else agrees with you in that regard. I think the star makes the team not the team makes the star. But maybe Im on an island here. Would love to hear some non-pro KG guys on this one.

The NBA is a star driven league. No team is winning a title without stars. It's no coincidence the Bobcats and Wizards aren't winning games.