The Paul George Vs James Harden Debate

[Rapcity_11]

Maybe because they know at some point those things fail.

Re-read what I wrote.

[TheChosen618]

Assists per bad pass does use passing TO's. It also incorporates assist volume which is important for obvious reasons. It's more informative than assists per bad pass.

Obviously, but my point is that passing skills aren't completely determined by assists especially since there are plenty of times where someone makes good passes to open shooters and their teammates just fail to convert. That's not on the facilitator as it is on the shooter.

Meh. Indiana has some solid offensive players. A big reason the Pacers are anemic on offense is that George isn't a great offensive player. Yet.

Sure, I already admitted a few pages back that Harden is a better overall player because of his superior offensive ability. We are just talking about passing here though. I'm not impressed by Harden's passing at all and I think George is probably the better passer.

You're not adjusting for pace. Harden has a higher ast% and lower to% than George.

You don't think it's possible the Pacers would be less anemic offensively if George was a better offensive player?

I'm not arguing that George is the better offensive player because he clearly isn't. I'm just saying he is the better passer.

[richboy]

Maybe because they know at some point those things fail.

Re-read what I wrote.

Let me just say again. Basketball is not a sport that you can just add things to your game and not use them until you need them. That is why some of the posters on this board fail. They rave about Harden not taking midrange shots and just focusing on a few different kind of shots in the regular season. Then the post season comes and they saying he needs to add more aspects to his game. Yet criticize those players who add those aspects to there games during the regular season.

As I sit here watching Tony Parker make midrange shot after midrange shot have to think some on these boards would have told him not to even add that shot. Was a time that he wasn't even good at shooting it. If you want to win championships you can't expect you can just play one way against every team and be successful.

[john248]

I think George is probably the better passer.

It may be due to being text on a message board, but it doesn't even sound like you even think there's a huge gap in their passing if you feel one is "probably" better than the other. Whether you feel PG is better in that aspect, this comes off as one guy being better at something even if the difference is small. Don't mean to nitpick, sometimes it bugs me to read "probably" or "maybe" though I myself do that at times.

[E-Balla]

Gotta say something because George is super overrated right now. Other than this playoff series can anyone honestly tell me one improvement they saw from last season to this season. Including the playoffs can you show me any reason to believe he's going to be better than Harden (a top 10 player easy)? Paul George can't outplay his team right now. How is he top 10?

[Rapcity_11]

Let me just say again. Basketball is not a sport that you can just add things to your game and not use them until you need them.

Actually it really is possible to do that. You can develop a floater and pull it out to use at certain times. Or a mid-range J. Should Harden make it the focus of his offense? No. Should he have a better one for certain situations? Yes. It's really not that complicated. It might be hard for you, I have no idea.

That is why some of the posters on this board fail. They rave about Harden not taking midrange shots and just focusing on a few different kind of shots in the regular season. Then the post season comes and they saying he needs to add more aspects to his game. Yet criticize those players who add those aspects to there games during the regular season.

Straw-man.

As I sit here watching Tony Parker make midrange shot after midrange shot have to think some on these boards would have told him not to even add that shot. Was a time that he wasn't even good at shooting it. If you want to win championships you can't expect you can just play one way against every team and be successful.

That doesn't change the facts that mid-range shots are the least efficient shots out there. Just because Parker can hit them at an ok rate doesn't make it a sound strategy for everyone. Hell, his own teammate made a career out of not taking mid-range shots.

[Rapcity_11]

Gotta say something because George is super overrated right now. Other than this playoff series can anyone honestly tell me one improvement they saw from last season to this season. Including the playoffs can you show me any reason to believe he's going to be better than Harden (a top 10 player easy)? Paul George can't outplay his team right now. How is he top 10?

He's made huge improvements handling the ball in the PnR. And a clear improvement in all aspects of defense.

[richboy]

Let me just say again. Basketball is not a sport that you can just add things to your game and not use them until you need them.

Actually it really is possible to do that. You can develop a floater and pull it out to use at certain times. Or a mid-range J. Should Harden make it the focus of his offense? No. Should he have a better one for certain situations? Yes. It's really not that complicated. It might be hard for you, I have no idea.

That is why some of the posters on this board fail. They rave about Harden not taking midrange shots and just focusing on a few different kind of shots in the regular season. Then the post season comes and they saying he needs to add more aspects to his game. Yet criticize those players who add those aspects to there games during the regular season.

Straw-man.

As I sit here watching Tony Parker make midrange shot after midrange shot have to think some on these boards would have told him not to even add that shot. Was a time that he wasn't even good at shooting it. If you want to win championships you can't expect you can just play one way against every team and be successful.

That doesn't change the facts that mid-range shots are the least efficient shots out there. Just because Parker can hit them at an ok rate doesn't make it a sound strategy for everyone. Hell, his own teammate made a career out of not taking mid-range shots.

Your comments are pretty based on the idea that advanced numbers are more important than wins or losses. Perhaps based on the fact you know you need those things in your game to win but just don't want to say them. Instead well just bust them out when all else fails. Does Harden need to add those aspects to his game or not.

Like I've said before. Jordan has said over and over if you want success in the playoffs you better have a midrange game. You can tell me all you want about Harden's advance numbers. I don't care about them. I watch games. Harden has some major weaknesses in his game. To me if you think he a lesser player if he adds a post game or a midrange shot. Then you just love the stats more than the game. His TS% is not what drives my thinking of Harden as a player.

[E-Balla]

Paul George's "potential":

Spoiler:

Sometimes athleticism and work ethic does no equal potential and some don't really realize this. Here's PGs numbers from the last 2 seasons:

12: 12.1/5.6/2.4 (14.7/6.8/2.9 per 36), .285 ftr, 51 eFG%, 19.3 usg%, 55.5 TS, 108 ORTG, 16.5 PER
13: 17.4/7.6/4.1 (16.7/7.3/4.0 per 36), .233 ftr, 49 eFG%, 23.5 usg%, 53.1 TS, 104 ORTG, 16.8 PER

Literally no change outside of his volume and he won (probably) the least deserved MIP award ever.

Now the playoffs is where some see this amazing improvement so let's look at his competition and how he's played:

vs Atlanta (10th ranked D - 104.4 DRTG) - 18.7/9.5/5.0, 55.9 TS, 112 ORTG - Legitimately great series. Looked like he was improving.

vs NY (18th ranked D - 106.3 DRTG) - 19.5/7.0/5.0, 49.2 TS, 95 ORTG - Very bad to say the least. Some said he impressed on defense but I didn't see it at all.

3 games vs Miami (9th ranked D - 103.7 DRTG) - 20.7/2.7/6.3, 60.0 TS, 113 ORTG - 2 good games and 1 bad game so he's been above average so far.

Total (avg DRTG of teams he's played = 105.0) - 19.4/7.1/5.3, 53.8 TS, 105 ORTG - Average. The numbers tell us he's been average offensively.

So in the regular season he was well below average (he was -2 in ORTG) and in the postseason he's average (below average when SOS is taken into account) and you want me to believe he's improved. This is a classic case of volume changing the perception of a player because this is the same Paul George we saw last year.

Does this mean he can't improve? I don't know. It's highly unlikely that he becomes a star though when going off previous improvements (by which I mean he hasn't improved majorly in over a year). Paul George goes to show that media perception can really change the way a player is thought of even by educated fans.

James Harden's potential:

Spoiler:

Since entering the league Harden has continuously improved.

As a rookie he averaged 9.7/3.2/2.0 on 53 TS before all star break and averaged 10.3/3.3/1.3 on 59.5 TS after. Clear improvement.

In his second year he averaged 10.3/3.3/2.0 on 58.5 TS before all star break and averaged 15.8/2.8/2.4 on 61.5 TS after. Again clear improvement.

Last year his raw averages pre and post all star break were identical but his TS% rose from 64.5 before all star break to 67.7 (and his TOV% decreased too). Again slight improvement but still very clear.

This year Harden seemed to have maxed out his current skills. He maxed out at 26/5/6 though. Most players show who they are within 4 years if given a chance. Harden has showed that he's an improving, offensive force that has many flaws but is still a first option a the end of the day. Top 10 easy and one of the top 5 young players right now.

So what we see is obvious. Harden is improving and is very close to the pinnacle when George could possibly be just as far in his development as Harden (they're both 23) despite being noticeably worse right now.

[E-Balla]

Gotta say something because George is super overrated right now. Other than this playoff series can anyone honestly tell me one improvement they saw from last season to this season. Including the playoffs can you show me any reason to believe he's going to be better than Harden (a top 10 player easy)? Paul George can't outplay his team right now. How is he top 10?

He's made huge improvements handling the ball in the PnR. And a clear improvement in all aspects of defense.

He's the 119th ranked PNR ball handler. Nothing he'll be able to hang his hat on. And defensively he seems just as good as last year to me and according to all forms of +/- he's either regressed tremendously or barely improved. Sno statistical basis and my eyes see nothing new.

[therealbig3]

Hard for me to watch Paul George this year and conclude that he ISN'T a clearly superior defender than last year. He got destroyed by a hobbled Wade in the playoffs last year, and LeBron obviously dominated them. This year, he's held his own against LeBron (who imo is a better offensive player than last year). And he was kind of a huge reason why Melo sucked ass in the last round. You can talk about Hibbert backing him up, and that's a fair point, but opposing wings tend to play a lot better when someone else is guarding them, even with Hibbert in the game.

George is an absolute elite defensive player, arguably the best defensive wing in the game. The fact that he's already a very good shooter, and is a decent ball handler and passer, who has insane athleticism and can penetrate and finish around the rim, means he's easily a top 25 player in the league, if not top 15. And he's only going to keep improving offensively.

With that said though, as of right now, I take Harden clearly.

[CBA]

I don't know what would make you say Paul George is a very good shooter. He shoots fairly poorly from everywhere but behind the three point line and even there he only shoots 36% despite being assisted 85% of the time.

I mean it's pretty obvious that if he was a very good shooter, at 6'10'' he would be a much better offensive player than he is.

[Rapcity_11]

He's the 119th ranked PNR ball handler. Nothing he'll be able to hang his hat on.

Well what was he before this year? That could still be an improvement. Additionally that only covers scoring. His passing game out of the PnR improved rather significantly.

And defensively he seems just as good as last year to me and according to all forms of +/- he's either regressed tremendously or barely improved. Sno statistical basis and my eyes see nothing new.

What forms of +/- are you referring to?

Also, from what I've seen he's definitely improved off the ball.

[Rapcity_11]

Your comments are pretty based on the idea that advanced numbers are more important than wins or losses.

You are inferring this how exactly?

Perhaps based on the fact you know you need those things in your game to win but just don't want to say them. Instead well just bust them out when all else fails. Does Harden need to add those aspects to his game or not.

It's really not that complicated. Yes, Harden should develop a more varied game. But his primary mode of attack on offense should still be at the rim and 3's.

Like I've said before. Jordan has said over and over if you want success in the playoffs you better have a midrange game.

Appeal to authority fail.

You can tell me all you want about Harden's advance numbers. I don't care about them. I watch games.

Guess what? I watch games too. Probably as much if not more than you. Using advanced stats and watching games aren't mutually exclusive. It's asinine to pretend that they are.

There's also nothing advanced about knowing that layups and 3's are the best shots in basketball.

[E-Balla]

Hard for me to watch Paul George this year and conclude that he ISN'T a clearly superior defender than last year. He got destroyed by a hobbled Wade in the playoffs last year, and LeBron obviously dominated them. This year, he's held his own against LeBron (who imo is a better offensive player than last year). And he was kind of a huge reason why Melo sucked ass in the last round. You can talk about Hibbert backing him up, and that's a fair point, but opposing wings tend to play a lot better when someone else is guarding them, even with Hibbert in the game.

George is an absolute elite defensive player, arguably the best defensive wing in the game. The fact that he's already a very good shooter, and is a decent ball handler and passer, who has insane athleticism and can penetrate and finish around the rim, means he's easily a top 25 player in the league, if not top 15. And he's only going to keep improving offensively.

With that said though, as of right now, I take Harden clearly.

Hibbert played under 1 minute a game without George. That situation that you mentioned didn't happen in the Knicks series.

And he's doing everything but holding his own against Lebron right now. I don't know how you can watch this man he destroyed and call it holding his own.

He's the 119th ranked PNR ball handler. Nothing he'll be able to hang his hat on.

Well what was he before this year? That could still be an improvement. Additionally that only covers scoring. His passing game out of the PnR improved rather significantly.

And defensively he seems just as good as last year to me and according to all forms of +/- he's either regressed tremendously or barely improved. Sno statistical basis and my eyes see nothing new.

What forms of +/- are you referring to?

Also, from what I've seen he's definitely improved off the ball.

I don't have his PNR numbers from last year so I can't say. And it covers scoring but that's also pretty important.

And the only 2 forms of +/- we have in on/off and RAPM are what I used.

[Rapcity_11]

I don't have his PNR numbers from last year so I can't say.

I still have no clue how you can watch George run the PnR and not see the improvement. Hell, PG wasn't allowed to split doubles in the PnR before partway through the season.

And it covers scoring but that's also pretty important.

Sure, but only part of the picture.

And the only 2 forms of +/- we have in on/off and RAPM are what I used.

Where did you find RAPM?

[E-Balla]

I don't have his PNR numbers from last year so I can't say.

I still have no clue how you can watch George run the PnR and not see the improvement. Hell, PG wasn't allowed to split doubles in the PnR before partway through the season.

And it covers scoring but that's also pretty important.

Sure, but only part of the picture.

And the only 2 forms of +/- we have in on/off and RAPM are what I used.

Where did you find RAPM?

Type google site RAPM into google.

[Rapcity_11]

Type google site RAPM into google.

I see +3.8 on defense for 2013 and +1.4 for 2012...

[richboy]

Your comments are pretty based on the idea that advanced numbers are more important than wins or losses.

You are inferring this how exactly?

Perhaps based on the fact you know you need those things in your game to win but just don't want to say them. Instead well just bust them out when all else fails. Does Harden need to add those aspects to his game or not.

It's really not that complicated. Yes, Harden should develop a more varied game. But his primary mode of attack on offense should still be at the rim and 3's.

Like I've said before. Jordan has said over and over if you want success in the playoffs you better have a midrange game.

Appeal to authority fail.

You can tell me all you want about Harden's advance numbers. I don't care about them. I watch games.

Guess what? I watch games too. Probably as much if not more than you. Using advanced stats and watching games aren't mutually exclusive. It's asinine to pretend that they are.

There's also nothing advanced about knowing that layups and 3's are the best shots in basketball.

Well its pretty easy. I don't see Harden playing now. I saw his team at the bottom of the West playoffs. Your not really telling me ways for him to win games better. Your just telling me to maximize his advanced stats. This is a game about moments. About situations. About coming threw at the right time to win. That doesn't include the idea you need to maximize your advance stats. That is if you play a team that is giving the midrange shot you take it. That is if you play a team that guards you with Derek Fisher you take him in the post.

No I don't buy that argument. Yes everyone knows that the layup is the best shot in basketball. Even better do dunks. Your making a claim like someone is saying pass on a layup. I think you also understand your not always going to get layups. Now the idea that the 3 is a great shot is an advance idea. Which hey if you make it at a decent rate why not take it. But that is the fail in the thinking. In the framework of a long season your going to have games where your making it and games your not which takes the consistency out of your game. What you do during the season looks good but individual games your consistently failing. If you watch the Rockets this year that is pretty much how there season went.

When you actually watch games. You get into situations. Your thinking about who is guarding you. What the defense is doing. You don't predetermine on what shots you should take. That is how you stay consistent. James Harden is one of the most inconsistent players in the league. Look at what he does in wins. Then look what he does in losses. There a reason why he shoots 10% worst in losses. He has nothing else to go to when teams defend him well. He just doing the same thing over and over again and hoping his step back 3s go in.

[E-Balla]

Type google site RAPM into google.

I see +3.8 on defense for 2013 and +1.4 for 2012...

Your right. For some reason I kept reading his 2012 DRAPM as his 2013 DRAPM.