GOAT SF

[INKtastic]

If scoring is all that matters then Elgin Baylor and Rick Barry might be better than LBJ. Saying the Celtics won without thanks to Bird when the guy avged almost a triple double on a team that won 27 games the yr before is quite sad.

Not sure the Heat could win 1 game vs most of the teams that beat Birds Celtics. Have those series were after Bird was injured. If Bird had Derrick Rose and LBJs heart then he wouldnt have been playing in 88 playoffs and retired before 91 or 92.

Cedric Maxwell did win finals MVP on a team with Bird, McHale, Parish against a sub .500 team that greatly benefited from round one being best 2 out of 3. That's sort of like Mario Chalmers winning finals MVP on the Heat.

Differant time differant era. The Finals wasnt even on TV that yr. The writers voted the day before so they could get there stories done on the typewritters and then mailed into the office.

No role player will ever win another Finals MVP. It will always go to the best player on the winning team from now on. It wasnt always a star driven league in which the best player got 99% of the attention. What you are ignoring was that Maxwell was the MVP because his man was always double teaming Bird and Bird found him. Birds series in 81 was MVP worthy. 15ppg 15rpg 7apg is not a choke or a bad series. Parish was in foul trouble guarding Moses and McHale was a rookie 9th man who played 14mpg and only scored 28pts the entire series.

Maxwell was the 3rd leading scorer on that team so it would be more like Chris Bosh/Wade getting the Finals MVP.

The games were on TV, some of them were tape delayed, but I watched them all.

[INKtastic]

Offensively, Bird. Overall, Lebron.

sure, if you ignore the fact LeBron has a better scoring average, averages more assists (both while playing at a far lower pace than Bird), has a better TS%, a better eFG%. And overlook that LeBron's raw FG% last year was better than Bird's career average TS%. Either Birds offense gets way overrated or LeBron's gets way underrated.

The advanced offensive stats have LeBron over Bird by a mile. And the gaps only widen in the playoffs.

You know what I didn't ignore?

That unlike Lebron, Bird didn't have a gaping hole in his offensive game that literally made teams leave him wide open to take midrange shots.

Much like KD, Bird was unguardable. Offensively, it's Bird > Lebron. Lebron's not even the best scorer in the league now.

Arguing efficiency is a joke. Lebron's efficiency only spiked when he joined the Heat and was allowed to let other players take over as 1 option. He never gets doubled. And his midrange percentage in the finals last time I checked for his CAREER was in the 20's. That's rancid.

At Bird's peak (pre-injury), he was a 28-29 PPG player with over .500 percentage on mostly midrange game. Clearly a superior offensive player, much like like Pippen's clearly a superior defensive player. That being said, overall I take Lebron.


PS> Did I mention that Bird could actually hit the vast majority of his free throws?

LeBron has had a TS% of .590 or better for 5 consecutive seasons. Bird only did that twice in his career.

LeBron has shot 53% or better from two for 6 consecutive years, bird only did that 3 times in his career (once requires a roundup form .529).

LeBron has shot 55% or better from two for 4 consecutive years, Bird never did that once.

[MaliBrah]

And lol at Lebron never getting doubled. Did you miss the finals where Green literally left Wade alone to double on Lebron?

or lebron getting double and triple teamed in cleveland , sometimes even seeing 4 defenders at once!

[Warspite]

sure, if you ignore the fact LeBron has a better scoring average, averages more assists (both while playing at a far lower pace than Bird), has a better TS%, a better eFG%. And overlook that LeBron's raw FG% last year was better than Bird's career average TS%. Either Birds offense gets way overrated or LeBron's gets way underrated.

The advanced offensive stats have LeBron over Bird by a mile. And the gaps only widen in the playoffs.

You know what I didn't ignore?

That unlike Lebron, Bird didn't have a gaping hole in his offensive game that literally made teams leave him wide open to take midrange shots.

Much like KD, Bird was unguardable. Offensively, it's Bird > Lebron. Lebron's not even the best scorer in the league now.

Arguing efficiency is a joke. Lebron's efficiency only spiked when he joined the Heat and was allowed to let other players take over as 1 option. He never gets doubled. And his midrange percentage in the finals last time I checked for his CAREER was in the 20's. That's rancid.

At Bird's peak (pre-injury), he was a 28-29 PPG player with over .500 percentage on mostly midrange game. Clearly a superior offensive player, much like like Pippen's clearly a superior defensive player. That being said, overall I take Lebron.


PS> Did I mention that Bird could actually hit the vast majority of his free throws?

LeBron has had a TS% of .590 or better for 5 consecutive seasons. Bird only did that twice in his career.

LeBron has shot 53% or better from two for 6 consecutive years, bird only did that 3 times in his career (once requires a roundup form .529).

LeBron has shot 55% or better from two for 4 consecutive years, Bird never did that once.

Whats your point? Your saying that you dont think Bird can improve his TS% in this era? Do you have any evidence that would make me believe that LBJ could put up the same TS% in the 80s? You think LBJ would put up the same stats vs Ewings Knicks as he does Melos? That he would do to the Bad Boys what he does to the Bulls?

Your argument holds no more weight than the arguement that Elgin Baylor is a better rebounder than Dennis Rodman. Sure one can look at RPG but its a flawed stat just like TS%.

[mademan]

80's defense was worse than now though...

[Brenice]

I go with LeBron here but he needs to punish teams in big series, instead of losing confidence and looking lost like Ben Wallace when dared to shoot open jumpshots.

Ben Wallace never dropped 37 points in game 7 when dared to shoot "jump shots".

I got that. But the Spurs treated LeBron as if he were Ben and was up in the series because of it.

[INKtastic]

Whats your point? Your saying that you dont think Bird can improve his TS% in this era? Do you have any evidence that would make me believe that LBJ could put up the same TS% in the 80s? You think LBJ would put up the same stats vs Ewings Knicks as he does Melos? That he would do to the Bad Boys what he does to the Bulls?

Your argument holds no more weight than the arguement that Elgin Baylor is a better rebounder than Dennis Rodman. Sure one can look at RPG but its a flawed stat just like TS%.

defenses are more efficient today than they were in bird's era. And Bird's career was half over before Ewing was ever drafted and was completely over before Ewing ever was on an elite defensive team.

And the stats I use are like comparing rebounding percentages of Rodman and Baylor. Without even looking it up I'm certain Rodman blows him away in rebounding percentage.

[INKtastic]

I go with LeBron here but he needs to punish teams in big series, instead of losing confidence and looking lost like Ben Wallace when dared to shoot open jumpshots.

Ben Wallace never dropped 37 points in game 7 when dared to shoot "jump shots".

I got that. But the Spurs treated LeBron as if he were Ben and was up in the series because of it.

did they win the series? Who got finals MVP?

[JordansBulls]

It all depends on where you rank Bird. If Bird is in the 8 to 10 range, then Lebron has a case. If Bird is in your 4-7 range, then it is Bird.

[Brenice]

Ben Wallace never dropped 37 points in game 7 when dared to shoot "jump shots".

I got that. But the Spurs treated LeBron as if he were Ben and was up in the series because of it.

did they win the series? Who got finals MVP?

Ray Allen saved LeBron's reputation, but you saw him play like he was self-check. I know why he stacked the deck. His confidence has huge, historic swings. LeBron knows it too.

[PaulieWal]

I got that. But the Spurs treated LeBron as if he were Ben and was up in the series because of it.

did they win the series? Who got finals MVP?

Ray Allen saved LeBron's reputation, but you saw him play like he was self-check. I know why he stacked the deck. His confidence has huge, historic swings. LeBron knows it too.

It's a team game. It's funny after how LeBron wins his second FMVP, all of his naysayers now say Allen "saved" his reputation. Did MWP save Kobe's reputation in that game 7? Even PJ called him the MVP of game 7. I don't want to derail this further into a Kobe-LeBron thread because we got enough of those already here but it's a team game.

Without LeBron going bananas in the 4th, Miami would have been down more than 5 in those final 28 seconds. He should get the blame for those 2 turnovers but without him bringing Miami all the way back and even giving them a lead for a brief period, Miami would have lost the game easily.

So LeBron saved his team and then a member of his team "saved" his reputation with the game tying 3. I guess that's why its 5 vs 5 not 1 vs 5. I thought LeBron saved his reputation plenty in game 7 with 37/12.

[Mr MoJo Risin]

I'm going with Larry Legend, pre back injury, when he could run the floor, take you to the hole, or drain a 3. The kid iq was superior. He knew how to beat you mentally.

[arifgokcen]

You know what I didn't ignore?

That unlike Lebron, Bird didn't have a gaping hole in his offensive game that literally made teams leave him wide open to take midrange shots.

Much like KD, Bird was unguardable. Offensively, it's Bird > Lebron. Lebron's not even the best scorer in the league now.

Arguing efficiency is a joke. Lebron's efficiency only spiked when he joined the Heat and was allowed to let other players take over as 1 option. He never gets doubled. And his midrange percentage in the finals last time I checked for his CAREER was in the 20's. That's rancid.

At Bird's peak (pre-injury), he was a 28-29 PPG player with over .500 percentage on mostly midrange game. Clearly a superior offensive player, much like like Pippen's clearly a superior defensive player. That being said, overall I take Lebron.


PS> Did I mention that Bird could actually hit the vast majority of his free throws?

LeBron has had a TS% of .590 or better for 5 consecutive seasons. Bird only did that twice in his career.

LeBron has shot 53% or better from two for 6 consecutive years, bird only did that 3 times in his career (once requires a roundup form .529).

LeBron has shot 55% or better from two for 4 consecutive years, Bird never did that once.

Whats your point? Your saying that you dont think Bird can improve his TS% in this era? Do you have any evidence that would make me believe that LBJ could put up the same TS% in the 80s? You think LBJ would put up the same stats vs Ewings Knicks as he does Melos? That he would do to the Bad Boys what he does to the Bulls?

Your argument holds no more weight than the arguement that Elgin Baylor is a better rebounder than Dennis Rodman. Sure one can look at RPG but its a flawed stat just like TS%.

I wasnt going to get into this argument but dude come on.

You are comparing RPG to TS%.First of all for rebounding ability you look at rebounding percentage.TS% isnt affected by eras and another thing todays defenses are much better compared to 80s.Hard basketball doesnt mean good basketball.If defenses were allowed to be as physical as it was back then,teams wouldnt score more than 70-80ppg.

[Brenice]

Bird would be the best "stretch SF or PF" in NBA history. He would rather not play solely like one because he liked to play in the paint too.

[poopdamoop]

There really isn't a big career gap at all, LeBron's total stats are very comparable to Birds. And looking at advanced stats, Bron has a pretty big gap there as well. Accomplishment-wise, there's pretty much nothing Bird has done that LeBron hasn't, and all he really has over him is the one extra ring, which will probably change in the next couple years.

[parapooper]

I got that. But the Spurs treated LeBron as if he were Ben and was up in the series because of it.

did they win the series? Who got finals MVP?

Ray Allen saved LeBron's reputation, but you saw him play like he was self-check. I know why he stacked the deck. His confidence has huge, historic swings. LeBron knows it too.

Ray Allen had 9 pts, 1 rbs, 2 ast in 40+ minutes and played terrible defense in game 6 vs. Lebrons 32 pt triple double but people go on and on about how Ray saved LeBron when it would probably be more accurate to say he almost lost LeBron his 2nd ring.

LeBron had 2.1 x the playoff win shares of his best teammate in his championship runs (3.7 x his last two years in Cleveland)
Bird had 1.5 x the playoff win shares of his best teammate in his title runs, clearly below LeBron, but somehow it is always LeBron who has too much help and gets saved by someone who plays nowhere near as good as him according to the Kobe fans constantly littering LeBron threads with this nonsense. Kobe has on average 0.8x as many playoff win shares as his best title-teammate btw, but to take that into account and at least weight rings by contribution would of course be blasphemy while everything LeBron does somehow needs an asterisk next to it.

[SideshowBob]

I've got Bird at 9th and Lebron at 13. I have Lebron's peak comfortably ahead though.

[Brenice]

did they win the series? Who got finals MVP?

Ray Allen saved LeBron's reputation, but you saw him play like he was self-check. I know why he stacked the deck. His confidence has huge, historic swings. LeBron knows it too.

Ray Allen had 9 pts, 1 rbs, 2 ast in 40+ minutes and played terrible defense in game 6 vs. Lebrons 32 pt triple double but people go on and on about how Ray saved LeBron when it would probably be more accurate to say he almost lost LeBron his 2nd ring.

LeBron had 2.1 x the playoff win shares of his best teammate in his championship runs (3.7 x his last two years in Cleveland)

But yet the most important and important shot belonged to Ray. While LeBron and his stats, is remembered for not taking the dare to shoot, over and over.
Bird had 1.5 x the playoff win shares of his best teammate in his title runs, clearly below LeBron, but somehow it is always LeBron who has too much help and gets saved by someone who plays nowhere near as good as him according to the Kobe fans constantly littering LeBron threads with this nonsense. Kobe has on average 0.8x as many playoff win shares as his best title-teammate btw, but to take that into account and at least weight rings by contribution would of course be blasphemy while everything LeBron does somehow needs an asterisk next to it.

[Swagalicious]

Career-wise Bird, peak give me LeBron any day and he'll eventually surpass him, too

Imo Bird is vastly overrated. For a guy to have so many playoff failures and lack of great defensive play to still be heralded as he is is ridiculous

[Brenice]

Career-wise Bird, peak give me LeBron any day and he'll eventually surpass him, too

Imo Bird is vastly overrated. For a guy to have so many playoff failures and lack of great defensive play to still be heralded as he is is ridiculous

What failured, trading rings with the Showtime Lakers? LeBron has done worse.