1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart

Moderators: penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063

User avatar
Dipper 13
Starter
Posts: 2,276
And1: 1,438
Joined: Aug 23, 2010

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#41 » by Dipper 13 » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:16 pm

Over that period ('90-'92), with all playoff games included and regular season games proportionally equal to the amount in your sample he in reality was shooting 53.5% 2P and 34.5% 3P. Your sample says 54.7% 2P and 38.3% 3P. So it's 9.9% and 2.2% difference from his real stats over that period, so it seems as his stats from your sample are increased by highlight bias by about 6.1%.


What do you mean by proportionally equal to my sample? How did you make the adjustment from 299 games to 126 games, and determine the effect that would have on his shooting percentage? Including regular season and playoffs for those 3 seasons he shot 54.0% from 2 Pt Range.
lorak
Head Coach
Posts: 6,317
And1: 2,237
Joined: Nov 23, 2009

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#42 » by lorak » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:19 pm

Dipper 13 wrote:
Over that period ('90-'92), with all playoff games included and regular season games proportionally equal to the amount in your sample he in reality was shooting 53.5% 2P and 34.5% 3P. Your sample says 54.7% 2P and 38.3% 3P. So it's 9.9% and 2.2% difference from his real stats over that period, so it seems as his stats from your sample are increased by highlight bias by about 6.1%.


What do you mean by proportionally equal to my sample? How did you make the adjustment from 299 games to 126 games, and determine the effect that would have on his shooting percentage? Including regular season and playoffs for those 3 seasons he shot 54.0% from 2 Pt Range.


For example in your sample he has XX games from '90 regular season. So we look at his avg stats from '90 season multiple by XX... do the same for two other seasons, add all stats from three playoffs run and that's all.
User avatar
Dipper 13
Starter
Posts: 2,276
And1: 1,438
Joined: Aug 23, 2010

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#43 » by Dipper 13 » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:27 pm

^The only way to know for sure would be for the NBA to release the data. Chances are they probably used overhead cameras to determine the shot locations. I would bet on his restricted area percentage being lower as opposed to his midrange if anything, seeing as quite a few of his missed FGA at the rim were on some incredible manufactured shots that most others wouldn't even consider attempting. Or he could have missed even more shots in the paint from the 5-15 foot range, seeing as that is where it was easiest for the defense to give help. I would almost call Jordan (and Bird) the Bill Russell of offense in his playing style and how he took advantage of the defensive gaps that most others couldn't even see.




Russell Rules: 11 Lessons on Leadership From the Twentieth Century's Greatest Winner - Bill Russell

When I played against Oscar Robertson, for example, I thought for a while that he had 360-degree vision. He seemed to know where everyone on the court was at all times; he could thread a pass through the eye of a needle, through a football scrimmage of bodies. But he didn't really have 360-degree vision at all; he had this peculiar ability great athletes have to focus. Where an ordinary player would see whatever was in front of him and whatever his peripheral vision took in, a player like Oscar would be able to eliminate everything between him and the player he wanted to pass to or the area where he had to get to shoot or set up a play. His vision then narrowed like a laser beam. Within that beam he could slow down or speed up the action as need demanded. But then everything outside that beam wasn't visible to him! I realized his great seeing power made him blind! And that allowed me to work invisibly against him. I could move into these blind zones and attack the ball or the player without being seen.
ardee
RealGM
Posts: 15,320
And1: 5,397
Joined: Nov 16, 2011

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#44 » by ardee » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:09 pm

+44.9 On/Off.... :o

Inconceivable. That's double of the best we've seen.
User avatar
Dipper 13
Starter
Posts: 2,276
And1: 1,438
Joined: Aug 23, 2010

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#45 » by Dipper 13 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:19 am

playoffs


Playoff Only Crunch Time Statistics

24 Games Total

http://i.imgur.com/09XcdJP.png



Image



Plus/Minus Total: +87

Plus/Minus Per 48: +42.2

Win Percentage: 70.8%





Total Statistics

http://i.imgur.com/mkjVAW4.png



Per 48 Statistics

http://i.imgur.com/pXUCEnY.png
Gregoire
Analyst
Posts: 3,509
And1: 662
Joined: Jul 29, 2012

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#46 » by Gregoire » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:52 am

Dipper 13 wrote:
playoffs


Playoff Only Crunch Time Statistics

24 Games Total

http://i.imgur.com/09XcdJP.png



Image



Plus/Minus Total: +87

Plus/Minus Per 48: +42.2

Win Percentage: 70.8%





Total Statistics

http://i.imgur.com/mkjVAW4.png



Per 48 Statistics

http://i.imgur.com/pXUCEnY.png

And how about other stats for the playoffs only: on/off, shot chart, plus/minus ect?
Heej wrote:
These no calls on LeBron are crazy. A lot of stars got foul calls to protect them.
falcolombardi wrote:
Come playoffs 18 lebron beats any version of jordan
AEnigma wrote:
Jordan is not as smart a help defender as Kidd
Gregoire
Analyst
Posts: 3,509
And1: 662
Joined: Jul 29, 2012

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#47 » by Gregoire » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:20 am

Dipper 13 wrote:
playoffs


Playoff Only Crunch Time Statistics

24 Games Total

http://i.imgur.com/09XcdJP.png



Image



Plus/Minus Total: +87

Plus/Minus Per 48: +42.2

Win Percentage: 70.8%





Total Statistics

http://i.imgur.com/mkjVAW4.png



Per 48 Statistics

http://i.imgur.com/pXUCEnY.png


His playoffs peak clutch scoring seems not human-like: 73,7 points/48min with 71 TS%.... For three years... its just couldnt be understanded. :o :o
Heej wrote:
These no calls on LeBron are crazy. A lot of stars got foul calls to protect them.
falcolombardi wrote:
Come playoffs 18 lebron beats any version of jordan
AEnigma wrote:
Jordan is not as smart a help defender as Kidd
WillyNYC
Banned User
Posts: 3
And1: 3
Joined: Nov 29, 2013

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#48 » by WillyNYC » Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:36 pm

Can someone who understand all this stuff better than me put it in laymen's terms or compare it to the same type of stats for modern players like Kobe/Bron/Wade etc.? Preferably an apples to apples comparison (the reg season #'s versus regular season and the playoff numbers above vs. others' playoff #'s).
O_6
Rookie
Posts: 1,176
And1: 1,583
Joined: Aug 25, 2010

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#49 » by O_6 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:22 pm

Fantastic job Dipper, if I could give you 10 And1’s I would. I was a big fan of the Barkley shot charts but you went above and beyond with this Jordan post. Thank you.

The thing that really stands out to me in that post is the clutch performance. Jordan is already considered as the clutchest player in NBA history yet his clutch numbers look too good to be true. I’m just amazed at those team and individual stats in the clutch. Just to bring them up again…

78.3 PTS – 12.1 REB – 8.1 AST – 5.2 STL – 3.2 BLK – 1.8 TOV – 62.4% FG – 40.0% 3P – 88.4% FT

1v1 Defense: 15/55 (27.3 FG%)
Plus/Minus: +48.8

A per 48 line of 78/12/8 on essentially 60/40/90 shooting while being extremely careful with the ball (1.8 TOV) and also being an absolute menace on both help D (8.4 stocks) and man to man D (27.3% opp FG%). That is just insanity and his team performance of +48.8 pts per 100 backs it all up and proves how much of an impact Jordan had at the end of games. This kind of data backs up the Jordan clutch mythology and then some.

I decided to compare Jordan’s performance in the clutch during this time period with the best 2 year stretch of clutch play we’ve seen from LeBron and Kobe. Jordan played 242 “clutch minutes” during this incomplete sample over 3 years, which is roughly the same as a full 2 year span. I used “82games” clutch numbers with some help from BBRef to figure out the best 2 year stretch of clutch performance from both Kobe and LeBron. I settled on 2008-2009 for Kobe and 2009-10 for LeBron, I believe this was the best 2 year streak of regular season clutch performance from either of these two players based on the stats.

Here are what LeBron and Kobe averaged per 48 over their best 2 season stretch of clutch performance, with Jordan’s 90-92 stretch next to them for comparison….

Code: Select all

PER 48 CLUTCH STATS
Player   PTS    REB   AST   STL   BLK   TOV   eFG%   FT%    +/-   Mins
Kobe     54.4   8.3   5.8   0.9   0.3   3.6   .493   .883   22.5   279
LeBron   61.7   15.2  10.1  3.3   2.6   4.4   .572   .823   40.1   262
Jordan   78.3   12.1  8.1   5.2   3.2   1.8   .652   .884   48.8   242


As great as Kobe is, he's a clear 3rd in this comparison like he is with most comparisons involving these 3. There's nothing bad about 54/8/6 per 48 on a very solid .493 eFG% (Kobe has a career .487 eFG%). The fact that his teams had a +22.5 plus/minus shows that Kobe had a really strong impact during these moments. But LeBron and Jordan trump Kobe when it comes to both clutch scoring and clutch non-scoring. Jordan and LeBron could dominate the defensive end of the game during these moments, an underrated aspect of both of their "clutchness".

And when it comes to LeBron vs. Jordan, MJ does come out clearly ahead as good as LBJ was during these moments. MJ averaged 17 points more while shooting significantly better from the field. LeBron's clutch performance during these 2 epic Cavs years are historic and among the best we've seen in the 10+ years of data we have on clutch play, but Jordan's 90-92 run trumps it.

There could be some highlight bias but I feel like this would be less of a problem for "clutch" performance since it's more likely to have complete videos for these end of game situations. And even if there is a slight highlight bias that could make these numbers look a little better for Jordan, there's also the fact that he played in the playoffs for a big chunk of those 242 clutch minutes. It's much tougher to perform highly in the clutch during the playoffs. Kobe and LeBron's numbers are regular season only. So I think even if there is highlight bias, the playoff factor makes up for it.

Long story short... Jordan is considered the best clutch player ever and yet he was probably even more clutch than people think.
parapooper
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,620
And1: 968
Joined: Apr 10, 2011

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#50 » by parapooper » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:39 pm

So for a 40 minute game (puts it better in context for me personally) that would be
65/10/6.7/4.3/2.7

Not sure what is more insane - 65 pts @ 65eFG%, 10 rbds for an SG, ast/TO ratio of 4.5 or the 4.3 stls + 2.7 blocks. It's mindboggling in every single aspect of the game and defense outside of boxscore as well apparently.
I always thought LeBrons 09/10 had a good shot at GOAT clutch but MJ's numbers are absolutely unbelievable. There is no way anyone will get close to that ever. Does someone have an excel sheet to calculate the PER for that - it's probably in the 60s.

MJ must have been totally phoning it in in non-clutch time if he can do that when required.
User avatar
NO-KG-AI
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 43,782
And1: 19,472
Joined: Jul 19, 2005
Location: The city of witch doctors, and good ol' pickpockets

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#51 » by NO-KG-AI » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:40 pm

Jordan was unbelievable to watch. He's one player that the eye test absolutely isn't wrong about. Those numbers are insane.
Doctor MJ wrote:I don't understand why people jump in a thread and say basically, "This thing you're all talking about. I'm too ignorant to know anything about it. Lollerskates!"
colts18
Head Coach
Posts: 7,433
And1: 3,249
Joined: Jun 29, 2009

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#52 » by colts18 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:09 pm

I don't believe those plus/minus numbers. No chance MJ was twice as good as the best recorded season from 97-13.
WillyNYC
Banned User
Posts: 3
And1: 3
Joined: Nov 29, 2013

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#53 » by WillyNYC » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:13 pm

Colts18, what basis do you have to suggest such a thing besides your own incredulity? Have you taken issue with Dipper13's analysis in the past? If not, why now?
Gregoire
Analyst
Posts: 3,509
And1: 662
Joined: Jul 29, 2012

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#54 » by Gregoire » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:19 pm

These numbers are just awesome, especially for the playoffs... GOAT playoff peak. If Dipper could do the same thing for 89 and 93 playoffs for MJ in the future It would be nice.
Heej wrote:
These no calls on LeBron are crazy. A lot of stars got foul calls to protect them.
falcolombardi wrote:
Come playoffs 18 lebron beats any version of jordan
AEnigma wrote:
Jordan is not as smart a help defender as Kidd
User avatar
E-Balla
RealGM
Posts: 35,822
And1: 25,116
Joined: Dec 19, 2012
Location: The Poster Formerly Known As The Gotham City Pantalones
   

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#55 » by E-Balla » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:47 pm

WillyNYC wrote:Colts18, what basis do you have to suggest such a thing besides your own incredulity? Have you taken issue with Dipper13's analysis in the past? If not, why now?

I'm pretty sure he said something about Chuck's insane on/off too.
Gregoire
Analyst
Posts: 3,509
And1: 662
Joined: Jul 29, 2012

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#56 » by Gregoire » Sun Dec 1, 2013 11:54 am

who can say, from 97-13 who had best single playoffs on/off and plus/ minus to compare here?
Heej wrote:
These no calls on LeBron are crazy. A lot of stars got foul calls to protect them.
falcolombardi wrote:
Come playoffs 18 lebron beats any version of jordan
AEnigma wrote:
Jordan is not as smart a help defender as Kidd
Gregoire
Analyst
Posts: 3,509
And1: 662
Joined: Jul 29, 2012

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#57 » by Gregoire » Sun Dec 1, 2013 4:15 pm

O_6 wrote:Fantastic job Dipper, if I could give you 10 And1’s I would. I was a big fan of the Barkley shot charts but you went above and beyond with this Jordan post. Thank you.

The thing that really stands out to me in that post is the clutch performance. Jordan is already considered as the clutchest player in NBA history yet his clutch numbers look too good to be true. I’m just amazed at those team and individual stats in the clutch. Just to bring them up again…

78.3 PTS – 12.1 REB – 8.1 AST – 5.2 STL – 3.2 BLK – 1.8 TOV – 62.4% FG – 40.0% 3P – 88.4% FT

1v1 Defense: 15/55 (27.3 FG%)
Plus/Minus: +48.8

A per 48 line of 78/12/8 on essentially 60/40/90 shooting while being extremely careful with the ball (1.8 TOV) and also being an absolute menace on both help D (8.4 stocks) and man to man D (27.3% opp FG%). That is just insanity and his team performance of +48.8 pts per 100 backs it all up and proves how much of an impact Jordan had at the end of games. This kind of data backs up the Jordan clutch mythology and then some.

I decided to compare Jordan’s performance in the clutch during this time period with the best 2 year stretch of clutch play we’ve seen from LeBron and Kobe. Jordan played 242 “clutch minutes” during this incomplete sample over 3 years, which is roughly the same as a full 2 year span. I used “82games” clutch numbers with some help from BBRef to figure out the best 2 year stretch of clutch performance from both Kobe and LeBron. I settled on 2008-2009 for Kobe and 2009-10 for LeBron, I believe this was the best 2 year streak of regular season clutch performance from either of these two players based on the stats.

Here are what LeBron and Kobe averaged per 48 over their best 2 season stretch of clutch performance, with Jordan’s 90-92 stretch next to them for comparison….

Code: Select all

PER 48 CLUTCH STATS
Player   PTS    REB   AST   STL   BLK   TOV   eFG%   FT%    +/-   Mins
Kobe     54.4   8.3   5.8   0.9   0.3   3.6   .493   .883   22.5   279
LeBron   61.7   15.2  10.1  3.3   2.6   4.4   .572   .823   40.1   262
Jordan   78.3   12.1  8.1   5.2   3.2   1.8   .652   .884   48.8   242


As great as Kobe is, he's a clear 3rd in this comparison like he is with most comparisons involving these 3. There's nothing bad about 54/8/6 per 48 on a very solid .493 eFG% (Kobe has a career .487 eFG%). The fact that his teams had a +22.5 plus/minus shows that Kobe had a really strong impact during these moments. But LeBron and Jordan trump Kobe when it comes to both clutch scoring and clutch non-scoring. Jordan and LeBron could dominate the defensive end of the game during these moments, an underrated aspect of both of their "clutchness".

And when it comes to LeBron vs. Jordan, MJ does come out clearly ahead as good as LBJ was during these moments. MJ averaged 17 points more while shooting significantly better from the field. LeBron's clutch performance during these 2 epic Cavs years are historic and among the best we've seen in the 10+ years of data we have on clutch play, but Jordan's 90-92 run trumps it.

There could be some highlight bias but I feel like this would be less of a problem for "clutch" performance since it's more likely to have complete videos for these end of game situations. And even if there is a slight highlight bias that could make these numbers look a little better for Jordan, there's also the fact that he played in the playoffs for a big chunk of those 242 clutch minutes. It's much tougher to perform highly in the clutch during the playoffs. Kobe and LeBron's numbers are regular season only. So I think even if there is highlight bias, the playoff factor makes up for it.

Long story short... Jordan is considered the best clutch player ever and yet he was probably even more clutch than people think.


Great analysis... From these comparison we can see, that Lebron is clutchest player of generation with huge gap after him, but the level of MJ - its just from another planet... Its interesting to calculate his playoff and RS PER from 88-93 in the clutch. And his Net rtg and plus/minus overall per 100 possesions in the playoffs 88-93.
Heej wrote:
These no calls on LeBron are crazy. A lot of stars got foul calls to protect them.
falcolombardi wrote:
Come playoffs 18 lebron beats any version of jordan
AEnigma wrote:
Jordan is not as smart a help defender as Kidd
colts18
Head Coach
Posts: 7,433
And1: 3,249
Joined: Jun 29, 2009

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#58 » by colts18 » Sun Dec 1, 2013 6:04 pm

Gregoire wrote:who can say, from 97-13 who had best single playoffs on/off and plus/ minus to compare here?

03 KG had a +23.6 net plus/minus

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... -off/2003/

09 LeBron had a +21.2 net plus/minus and had the best on court plus/minus for a big minute player at +15

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... -off/2009/
Gregoire
Analyst
Posts: 3,509
And1: 662
Joined: Jul 29, 2012

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#59 » by Gregoire » Wed Dec 4, 2013 9:38 am

The stat which impressed me the most maybe: only around 20% of clutch buckets assisted. Its in the triangle. Awesome.
Heej wrote:
These no calls on LeBron are crazy. A lot of stars got foul calls to protect them.
falcolombardi wrote:
Come playoffs 18 lebron beats any version of jordan
AEnigma wrote:
Jordan is not as smart a help defender as Kidd
User avatar
Dipper 13
Starter
Posts: 2,276
And1: 1,438
Joined: Aug 23, 2010

Re: 1990-1992 Michael Jordan Shot Chart 

Post#60 » by Dipper 13 » Wed Dec 4, 2013 11:01 pm

Gregoire wrote:The stat which impressed me the most maybe: only around 20% of clutch buckets assisted. Its in the triangle. Awesome.


In looking at playoffs only that percentage goes down to 16%.


viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1286698&start=30#p37647437

Return to Player Comparisons