Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL?

[MacGill]

I have him 12-14 range but honestly, he was an incredible player and I wish he was talked about more. From what I have researched about him he has top 10 potential given his basketball ability. Hopefully some good recaps of him will show up here.

[Grandpa Waiters]

Overrated as a player. Had all the tools to be Jordan/Kobe like but was a bit unpolished and never improved his weaknesses. Average ball handler and couldn't hit a 15 footer. Gets the benefit of the doubt because he was an eloquent spokesman and ambassador for two leagues (ABA and NBA) at a time when both leagues were struggling. Played his best ball in an inferior league and when he transitioned to the NBA in 1977 his stats went down across the board. Led Sixers to a 2-0 lead in the '77 Finals only to drop four straight to Blazers. Lost game 6 of the 1980 Finals at home with Kareem back in LA. Got outplayed by Magic (42/15/7) and Jamaal Wilkes (37). Blew a 3-1 lead against Boston in the '81 ECF by losing games 5/6/7 by a combined total of FIVE points. Blew a 3-1 lead to the Celts in the '82 ECF only to win game 7 at Boston and then LOSE the Finals to the Lakers. Won the title in '83 only after picking up the reigning league MVP (Moses Malone) but lost to the New Jersey Nets in the first round of the '84 playoffs while trying to defend their title. Michael Jordan is everything he COULD'VE been. As it stands, I have him ranked between 20-25 more so because of what he meant to the game vs what he accomplished.

This is rich.

Did it occur to you that Michael Jordan was everything Julius could have been in no small part because to scale the championship mountain Jordan didn't have to vanquish four of the absolute best peak-players in basketball history? Walton in 1977 is on the GOAT-peak shortlist. Then you listed peak Kareem, peak Bird, peak Magic. As great a gauntlet he faced in terms of average team quality over the course of six title runs, Jordan was only able to break his trophy cherry against a declining Magic, young Shaq in one series ever, the Bad Boys Pistons on their way down after owning Jordan for years, Ewing, Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Gary Payton, John Stockton, Karl Malone, not Hakeem, not Duncan, not Bird. Dr. J regularly went up against and was thwarted by players who are consensus Top 5-10 peak players of all time. Jordan went up against one such guy in his last good year, one such guy as a raw specimen and a slew of Top 15-50 players. It's a qualitatively different caliber of opponent blocking/unlocking the way. JORDAN LUCKED OUT, quite a bit. Julius Erving is something Jordan EASILY could've been.

(Edited to reflect Shaq.)

Oh, wait, and he DID overcome Magic at Magic's peak, PLUS Kareem in Kareem's prime, rather than, say, last-year Magic and Vlade. Had the help of Moses, sure. Jordan had Pippen. And he and Moses swept those Lakers, the vastly superior version of the Lakers compared to 1991.

Jordan is everything Erving could've been. Erving for all his greatness was a bit unpolished in certain areas. No need to knock Jordan to pump up Erving. To say that Jordan beat "last year Magic" is a joke. Magic won MVP the PREVIOUS season and only retired after '91 because of HIV. To say that Jordan beat the Pistons when they were declining is a joke. The Pistons were the two time defending champs who had been in the last three finals and they got swept by the Bulls. That would be the equivalent of Indy sweeping Miami this year. Jordan swept Shaq, Penny and company in '96 when Shaq was one year removed from the finals. If Erving and the Sixers were so great how do you explain them losing to New Jersey in the first round in '84? The Nets of 42-40 fame with Otis Birdsong, Michael Ray Richardson, Albert King and Mike Gminski as their best players. Again, Erving's team blew a 2-0 lead in the finals to a one year wonder Portland team and a 3-1 lead to a Boston team in '81 with a second year Bird, rookie McHale and Celts team that never won anything. In '84, he lost in the FIRST ROUND to the NETS trying when to defend their title....and who exactly did Bird ever beat? Two of his three titles came at the expense of the '81 Rockets who sported a losing record of 40-42 and the '86 Rockets with a second year Akeem. They only beat the Lakers once in three tries and that took all seven games. I can play this game as well.

[Grandpa Waiters]

This is rich.

Did it occur to you that Michael Jordan was everything Julius could have been in no small part because to scale the championship mountain Jordan didn't have to vanquish four of the absolute best peak-players in basketball history? Walton in 1977 is on the GOAT-peak shortlist. Then you listed peak Kareem, peak Bird, peak Magic. As great a gauntlet he faced in terms of average team quality over the course of six title runs, Jordan was only able to break his trophy cherry against a declining Magic, young Shaq in one series ever, the Bad Boys Pistons on their way down after owning Jordan for years, Ewing, Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Gary Payton, John Stockton, Karl Malone, not Hakeem, not Duncan, not Bird. Dr. J regularly went up against and was thwarted by players who are consensus Top 5-10 peak players of all time. Jordan went up against one such guy in his last good year, one such guy as a raw specimen and a slew of Top 15-50 players. It's a qualitatively different caliber of opponent blocking/unlocking the way. JORDAN LUCKED OUT, quite a bit. Julius Erving is something Jordan EASILY could've been.

(Edited to reflect Shaq.)

Oh, wait, and he DID overcome Magic at Magic's peak, PLUS Kareem in Kareem's prime, rather than, say, last-year Magic and Vlade. Had the help of Moses, sure. Jordan had Pippen. And he and Moses swept those Lakers, the vastly superior version of the Lakers compared to 1991.

Jordan is everything Erving could've been. Erving for all his greatness was a bit unpolished in certain areas. No need to knock Jordan to pump up Erving. To say that Jordan beat "last year Magic" is a joke. Magic won MVP the PREVIOUS season and only retired after '91 because of HIV. To say that Jordan beat the Pistons when they were declining is a joke. The Pistons were the two time defending champs who had been in the last three finals and they got swept by the Bulls. That would be the equivalent of Indy sweeping Miami this year. Jordan swept Shaq, Penny and company in '96 when Shaq was one year removed from the finals. If Erving and the Sixers were so great how do you explain them losing to New Jersey in the first round in '84? The Nets of 42-40 fame with Otis Birdsong, Michael Ray Richardson, Albert King and Mike Gminski as their best players. Again, Erving's team blew a 2-0 lead in the finals to a one year wonder Portland team and a 3-1 lead to a Boston team in '81 with a second year Bird, rookie McHale and Celts team that never won anything. In '84, he lost in the FIRST ROUND to the NETS when trying to defend their title....and who exactly did Bird ever beat? Two of his three titles came at the expense of the '81 Rockets who sported a losing record of 40-42 and the '86 Rockets with a second year Akeem. They only beat the Lakers once in three tries and that took all seven games. I can play this game as well.

Also, you blame Jordan for not beating Hakeem, Duncan or Bird? LOL. Jordan played in six finals and Hakeem won the two years Jordan was out. How is that Jordan's fault? I could blame Hakeem just the same for not beating MJ. How can you blame Jordan for not beating Duncan? Jordan won the title in Duncan's rookie year of '97-'98. DUNCAN is the one who didn't make the finals that year....and who exactly has Duncan beat for his titles? '99 Knicks, '03 Nets, '05 Pistons, '07 Cavs? Not exactly legendary teams. Last we have Bird. You claim he could never beat Bird? Well, no kidding. They only met twice (86-87) in Jordan's second and third seasons. Bird, McHale and Parrish were in their championship primes while Jordan was playing with STARTERS that included Dave Corzine, Gene Banks, Sidney Green, Orlando Woolridge, Brad Sellars etc. Of course he lost. Nobody is gonna beat those Celtic teams with that kind of help.

[TrueLAfan]

Erving's knees were bad in his first year or two in the NBA as well. That titanic 1976 title run probably hampered him for quite a while too...J played over 3750 minutes in the 1976 seasons at the very highest level. (This includes, somehow, stepping up massively in the playoffs.) In his first two year sin the NBA, as noted, the Gene Shue Sixers were an amalgam of all stars and ball dominant players. The unselfish guy was Julius Erving. He played/scored/shot less … but let's not somehow kid ourselves that he wasn't still great. First, well, you have the 1977 finals where Erving was colossally awesome. McGinnis folded up like a wet tortilla in almost every game. J had 24-4-6 with three steals and a block with only 14 shot attempts in Game 4. It was his off game. He wasn't under 30 for the rest of the series. He averaged 30-7-5 on 54% shooting. We are talking about a guy with three ABA MVPs, an NBA MVP, and three other NBA top 5 MVP finishes...and we don't have records for the MVP voting in Doc's first three years in the ABA. I'll go out on a limb and say he was a top 5 player in those years too. Looking at both in the NBA and ABA combined in that period, you can make a very good case that Julius Erving was one of the top 5-7 players in basketball for at least 10 years—more like 12 or 13. How great is that? Pretty damn great.

I'm a huge fan of the newer talent in the NBA, and I think it's terrific that we have a player right now whose career arc and production is similar to that of Julius Erving. That player is Kevin Durant. Durant is a better scorer...and we'll never kn ow how much juice Erving could have gotten out of the three—after not having it in high school or college, Erving shot around .345 in his lost three ABA seasons before he was forced to give it up again. They are comparable as rebounders; Erving is slightly better (in his first 8 NBA years, Julius Erving had a Reb % of 11.1, same as Durant in his last five. Since Erving was a better rebounder in his first 5 years, he gets a slight edge.) They're comparable as ballhandlers but Durant is a better distributor. Erving is a better defensive player. None of the differences is really significant (except for assists...and in terms of Ast %, it's actually still quite close). I mean, it's great. I think Durant is awesome. And that's exactly how good Erving was. Awesome. For well more than a decade.

With a couple of extra spikes. First, there's the playoff/beast mode thing. Julius Erving's 1976 season is on the short list of the greatest of all time, including everyone who has ever played professional basketball. And overall, Erving won titles, and when he got the finals, he generally played his ass off. A few examples of that from Durant will help KD.

Then there's the charisma/respect aspect. Like I said, I think Kevin Durant is great. He is respected not just because he's a great player but because he is a genuinely good person. He “plays the game right.” But even that doesn't compare with how people felt about Julius Erving. Erving carried an entire league as a player in his early 20s. Doug Moe told me that Julius Erving fostered an atmosphere of teamwork and camaraderie in the ABA that was vastly superior to the NBA of the time (and later). Make no mistake about it—everyone knew it too. It never stopped. Everyone knew how hard Julius Erving worked to help not just his team, but the bottom line for the NBA and image of the league as a whole. Players as diverse as (uncommunicative) Moses Malone and Larry Bird and Mo Lucas and Charles Barkley talked about how much they wanted Julius Erving to win, how much they wanted to win for him. That went for everybody. In an informal poll taken in early 1987 to determine who was the “nicest” person (not just player) in sports (not just basketball), Julius Erving was a runaway winner. In Frank Deford lovely valedictory on Erving’s career in Sports Illustrated, Deford notes: “But, in the final analysis, the Doctor was more like a Ph.D, one who studied and learned, and then passed on his knowledge. The Doctor's gift was that he added to the game and helped us to enjoy it so much more.”

I love statistics, but...in certain ways and when you get to a certain point, statistics become kind of meaningless. If you're in the conversation for the top 15 players of all time, the fact is, statistics start to even out. You're arguing about numerical semantics. But there are other factors. And it is hard to communicate now the total and complete respect--and more than, personal admiration and liking--that Julius Erving commanded. Teammates played hard because they wanted to him to get what they felt he deserved. I don't think anyone in the league commands that level of complete admiration now.

OP? Erving is somewhere in that nebulous 7 or 8 to 13 to 16 group. Awesome.

[wigglestrue]

This is rich.

Did it occur to you that Michael Jordan was everything Julius could have been in no small part because to scale the championship mountain Jordan didn't have to vanquish four of the absolute best peak-players in basketball history? Walton in 1977 is on the GOAT-peak shortlist. Then you listed peak Kareem, peak Bird, peak Magic. As great a gauntlet he faced in terms of average team quality over the course of six title runs, Jordan was only able to break his trophy cherry against a declining Magic, young Shaq in one series ever, the Bad Boys Pistons on their way down after owning Jordan for years, Ewing, Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Gary Payton, John Stockton, Karl Malone, not Hakeem, not Duncan, not Bird. Dr. J regularly went up against and was thwarted by players who are consensus Top 5-10 peak players of all time. Jordan went up against one such guy in his last good year, one such guy as a raw specimen and a slew of Top 15-50 players. It's a qualitatively different caliber of opponent blocking/unlocking the way. JORDAN LUCKED OUT, quite a bit. Julius Erving is something Jordan EASILY could've been.

(Edited to reflect Shaq.)

Oh, wait, and he DID overcome Magic at Magic's peak, PLUS Kareem in Kareem's prime, rather than, say, last-year Magic and Vlade. Had the help of Moses, sure. Jordan had Pippen. And he and Moses swept those Lakers, the vastly superior version of the Lakers compared to 1991.

Jordan is everything Erving could've been. Erving for all his greatness was a bit unpolished in certain areas. No need to knock Jordan to pump up Erving. To say that Jordan beat "last year Magic" is a joke. Magic won MVP the PREVIOUS season and only retired after '91 because of HIV. To say that Jordan beat the Pistons when they were declining is a joke. The Pistons were the two time defending champs who had been in the last three finals and they got swept by the Bulls. That would be the equivalent of Indy sweeping Miami this year. Jordan swept Shaq, Penny and company in '96 when Shaq was one year removed from the finals. If Erving and the Sixers were so great how do you explain them losing to New Jersey in the first round in '84? The Nets of 42-40 fame with Otis Birdsong, Michael Ray Richardson, Albert King and Mike Gminski as their best players. Again, Erving's team blew a 2-0 lead in the finals to a one year wonder Portland team and a 3-1 lead to a Boston team in '81 with a second year Bird, rookie McHale and Celts team that never won anything. In '84, he lost in the FIRST ROUND to the NETS trying when to defend their title....and who exactly did Bird ever beat? Two of his three titles came at the expense of the '81 Rockets who sported a losing record of 40-42 and the '86 Rockets with a second year Akeem. They only beat the Lakers once in three tries and that took all seven games. I can play this game as well.

Dude, are you here to be a Jordan jock-rider and nothing more?

It was literally Magic's last year. It was worse than the year before. He then had to retire. Regardless, it was not as good of a Magic Johnson or as good a Lakers team as the ones that Dr. J lost to in six games twice and beat once. The Rockets team Bird beat in 1981 had a peak Moses, and Akeem in 1986 was just about as good as Hakeem any other year. Yes, Bird played those exalted Lakers three times, losing twice. How many times did Jordan play those exalted Lakers? ZERO. The '91 Lakers were not the same team. Beating the Pistons would only be like beating the Heat this year only if these Heat then went on to never win another playoff series, let alone contend for a title again.

Also, you blame Jordan for not beating Hakeem, Duncan or Bird? LOL. Jordan played in six finals and Hakeem won the two years Jordan was out. How is that Jordan's fault? I could blame Hakeem just the same for not beating MJ. How can you blame Jordan for not beating Duncan? Jordan won the title in Duncan's rookie year of '97-'98. DUNCAN is the one who didn't make the finals that year....and who exactly has Duncan beat for his titles? '99 Knicks, '03 Nets, '05 Pistons, '07 Cavs? Not exactly legendary teams. Last we have Bird. You claim he could never beat Bird? Well, no kidding. They only met twice (86-87) in Jordan's second and third seasons. Bird, McHale and Parrish were in their championship primes while Jordan was playing with STARTERS that included Dave Corzine, Gene Banks, Sidney Green, Orlando Woolridge, Brad Sellars etc. Of course he lost. Nobody is gonna beat those Celtic teams with that kind of help.

I'm pointing out that Jordan never had to beat three Top 10-ish players whose careers either overlapped with his or could've overlapped if Jordan didn't bow out early. That was his choice, to leave right before he might have faced Duncan/DRob in the Finals. That was his choice, to leave those couple of years when he might've faced Hakeem. So, yeah, I'm holding that against him. And he didn't just meet Bird, he lost to Bird in all six playoff games. The only Top 5-10-ish players Jordan beat were the 1991 version of Magic, once, and proto-Shaq, once.

That "one year wonder" Trailblazers comment just shows you're not being a genuine participant in a debate, and now you're just playing panicky, unsound defense to guard against your hero's reputation having a smudge of polish removed. You can play this game, too. Yes. Just not well. Because you don't have the truth on your side, and your fanboyness is making you sloppy. Jordan did most of his damage against three or four teams, over and over. Cavs, Knicks, Pistons, Heat. Jazz twice in the Finals. On those teams, you will not find Bird, or peak Magic, or peak Dr. J, or any Kareem, or any Hakeem, or peak Shaq, or any Duncan, or any Robinson, or any Moses, or any Kobe, or any Garnett, or any LeBron, or any Len Bias (let alone Bias + Lewis), and not even any Kidd. Jordan managed to evade having to beat almost all of the very, very best of the best players who could have possibly stood in his way had his career began a little earlier, not been interrupted in the middle (by choice), or not ended early (by choice). Jordan was more than a little lucky. You can either recognize this, or continue to be a willfully-blind homer about it.

[wigglestrue]

This is rich.

Did it occur to you that Michael Jordan was everything Julius could have been in no small part because to scale the championship mountain Jordan didn't have to vanquish four of the absolute best peak-players in basketball history? Walton in 1977 is on the GOAT-peak shortlist. Then you listed peak Kareem, peak Bird, peak Magic. As great a gauntlet he faced in terms of average team quality over the course of six title runs, Jordan was only able to break his trophy cherry against a declining Magic, young Shaq in one series ever, the Bad Boys Pistons on their way down after owning Jordan for years, Ewing, Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Gary Payton, John Stockton, Karl Malone, not Hakeem, not Duncan, not Bird. Dr. J regularly went up against and was thwarted by players who are consensus Top 5-10 peak players of all time. Jordan went up against one such guy in his last good year, one such guy as a raw specimen and a slew of Top 15-50 players. It's a qualitatively different caliber of opponent blocking/unlocking the way. JORDAN LUCKED OUT, quite a bit. Julius Erving is something Jordan EASILY could've been.

(Edited to reflect Shaq.)

Oh, wait, and he DID overcome Magic at Magic's peak, PLUS Kareem in Kareem's prime, rather than, say, last-year Magic and Vlade. Had the help of Moses, sure. Jordan had Pippen. And he and Moses swept those Lakers, the vastly superior version of the Lakers compared to 1991.

Jordan is everything Erving could've been. Erving for all his greatness was a bit unpolished in certain areas. No need to knock Jordan to pump up Erving. To say that Jordan beat "last year Magic" is a joke. Magic won MVP the PREVIOUS season and only retired after '91 because of HIV. To say that Jordan beat the Pistons when they were declining is a joke. The Pistons were the two time defending champs who had been in the last three finals and they got swept by the Bulls. That would be the equivalent of Indy sweeping Miami this year. Jordan swept Shaq, Penny and company in '96 when Shaq was one year removed from the finals. If Erving and the Sixers were so great how do you explain them losing to New Jersey in the first round in '84? The Nets of 42-40 fame with Otis Birdsong, Michael Ray Richardson, Albert King and Mike Gminski as their best players. Again, Erving's team blew a 2-0 lead in the finals to a one year wonder Portland team and a 3-1 lead to a Boston team in '81 with a second year Bird, rookie McHale and Celts team that never won anything. In '84, he lost in the FIRST ROUND to the NETS trying when to defend their title....and who exactly did Bird ever beat? Two of his three titles came at the expense of the '81 Rockets who sported a losing record of 40-42 and the '86 Rockets with a second year Akeem. They only beat the Lakers once in three tries and that took all seven games. I can play this game as well.

p.s. http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... #NJN::none

Michael Ray Richardson was really good, a four-time All-Star, and had a Rondo-like stretch of games. You forgot Buck Williams, who belongs in the NBA Hall of the Very Good, and who had a monster series. You forgot Darryl Dawkins. Gminski was pretty good in limited minutes. Otis Birdsong was another four-time All-Star, and was an All-Star that season. Hell, even Bernard's brother was decent. That was a pretty good team, six deep in above-averageness. And **** sometimes happens in five games, the last game was decided by a bucket. And it was only after the Lakers repeated in 87-88 and the Pistons did it then the Bulls then the Rockets then the Bulls then the Lakers then blahblah Lakers blahblah Heat that stumbling the following season would seem not normal. Championship hangovers happen, it's common in every sport. Basketball can be unusual, in that success is so dependent on one or two great players. But even the best can get tripped up the season after winning (Duncan has built a Top 10 Ever career on that pattern!) and again, it was a five game series, decided by one bucket in Game 5, against a pretty good team. They had gone 45-37 that year, by the way. Not 42-40. They had also finished the year on a 19W-8L run. And this is basically your whole argu m ent against Dr. J, lol?

[Grandpa Waiters]

Oh, wait, and he DID overcome Magic at Magic's peak, PLUS Kareem in Kareem's prime, rather than, say, last-year Magic and Vlade. Had the help of Moses, sure. Jordan had Pippen. And he and Moses swept those Lakers, the vastly superior version of the Lakers compared to 1991.

Jordan is everything Erving could've been. Erving for all his greatness was a bit unpolished in certain areas. No need to knock Jordan to pump up Erving. To say that Jordan beat "last year Magic" is a joke. Magic won MVP the PREVIOUS season and only retired after '91 because of HIV. To say that Jordan beat the Pistons when they were declining is a joke. The Pistons were the two time defending champs who had been in the last three finals and they got swept by the Bulls. That would be the equivalent of Indy sweeping Miami this year. Jordan swept Shaq, Penny and company in '96 when Shaq was one year removed from the finals. If Erving and the Sixers were so great how do you explain them losing to New Jersey in the first round in '84? The Nets of 42-40 fame with Otis Birdsong, Michael Ray Richardson, Albert King and Mike Gminski as their best players. Again, Erving's team blew a 2-0 lead in the finals to a one year wonder Portland team and a 3-1 lead to a Boston team in '81 with a second year Bird, rookie McHale and Celts team that never won anything. In '84, he lost in the FIRST ROUND to the NETS trying when to defend their title....and who exactly did Bird ever beat? Two of his three titles came at the expense of the '81 Rockets who sported a losing record of 40-42 and the '86 Rockets with a second year Akeem. They only beat the Lakers once in three tries and that took all seven games. I can play this game as well.

p.s. http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... #NJN::none

Michael Ray Richardson was really good, a four-time All-Star, and had a Rondo-like stretch of games. You forgot Buck Williams, who belongs in the NBA Hall of the Very Good, and who had a monster series. You forgot Darryl Dawkins. Gminski was pretty good in limited minutes. Otis Birdsong was another four-time All-Star, and was an All-Star that season. Hell, even Bernard's brother was decent. That was a pretty good team, six deep in above-averageness. And **** sometimes happens in five games, the last game was decided by a bucket. And it was only after the Lakers repeated in 87-88 and the Pistons did it then the Bulls then the Rockets then the Bulls then the Lakers then blahblah Lakers blahblah Heat that stumbling the following season would seem not normal. Championship hangovers happen, it's common in every sport. Basketball can be unusual, in that success is so dependent on one or two great players. But even the best can get tripped up the season after winning (Duncan has built a Top 10 Ever career on that pattern!) and again, it was a five game series, decided by one bucket in Game 5, against a pretty good team. They had gone 45-37 that year, by the way. Not 42-40. They had also finished the year on a 19W-8L run. And this is basically your whole argu m ent against Dr. J, lol?

Yep. The six years the Bulls won titles they were 18-0 in first round series. Six sweeps. Next.

[wigglestrue]

Jordan is everything Erving could've been. Erving for all his greatness was a bit unpolished in certain areas. No need to knock Jordan to pump up Erving. To say that Jordan beat "last year Magic" is a joke. Magic won MVP the PREVIOUS season and only retired after '91 because of HIV. To say that Jordan beat the Pistons when they were declining is a joke. The Pistons were the two time defending champs who had been in the last three finals and they got swept by the Bulls. That would be the equivalent of Indy sweeping Miami this year. Jordan swept Shaq, Penny and company in '96 when Shaq was one year removed from the finals. If Erving and the Sixers were so great how do you explain them losing to New Jersey in the first round in '84? The Nets of 42-40 fame with Otis Birdsong, Michael Ray Richardson, Albert King and Mike Gminski as their best players. Again, Erving's team blew a 2-0 lead in the finals to a one year wonder Portland team and a 3-1 lead to a Boston team in '81 with a second year Bird, rookie McHale and Celts team that never won anything. In '84, he lost in the FIRST ROUND to the NETS trying when to defend their title....and who exactly did Bird ever beat? Two of his three titles came at the expense of the '81 Rockets who sported a losing record of 40-42 and the '86 Rockets with a second year Akeem. They only beat the Lakers once in three tries and that took all seven games. I can play this game as well.

p.s. http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... #NJN::none

Michael Ray Richardson was really good, a four-time All-Star, and had a Rondo-like stretch of games. You forgot Buck Williams, who belongs in the NBA Hall of the Very Good, and who had a monster series. You forgot Darryl Dawkins. Gminski was pretty good in limited minutes. Otis Birdsong was another four-time All-Star, and was an All-Star that season. Hell, even Bernard's brother was decent. That was a pretty good team, six deep in above-averageness. And **** sometimes happens in five games, the last game was decided by a bucket. And it was only after the Lakers repeated in 87-88 and the Pistons did it then the Bulls then the Rockets then the Bulls then the Lakers then blahblah Lakers blahblah Heat that stumbling the following season would seem not normal. Championship hangovers happen, it's common in every sport. Basketball can be unusual, in that success is so dependent on one or two great players. But even the best can get tripped up the season after winning (Duncan has built a Top 10 Ever career on that pattern!) and again, it was a five game series, decided by one bucket in Game 5, against a pretty good team. They had gone 45-37 that year, by the way. Not 42-40. They had also finished the year on a 19W-8L run. And this is basically your whole argu m ent against Dr. J, lol?

Yep. The six years the Bulls won titles they were 18-0 in first round series. Six sweeps. Next.

Right, okay, so I get appreciating Jordan's career aesthetically, the little cherrypicked ways his career arc makes for a perfect narrative arc. But man, that stuff should be kept in its place, don't waste your time trying to privilege those angles in the realm of substantive comparisons. So, for example:

Jordan's unabridged history of first rounds:
1985 loss 1-3 to a very good Bucks team (Moncrief, Cummings, Pressey)
1986 loss 0-3 to a great Celtics team (despite the disguised-as-God game)
1987 loss 0-3 to a great Celtics team (both series facing Bird, McHale, Parish)
1988 win 3-2 vs an okay Cavs team (facing Nance, Price, Daugherty, Harper)
1989 win 3-2 vs a very good Cavs team (by the slimmest of Game 5 margins)
1990 win 3-1 vs an okay Bucks (Robertson, R. Pierce, Pressey)
1991 win 3-0 vs a mediocre Knicks (Ewing, Kiki, Oakley)
1992 win 3-0 vs a mediocre Heat (Seikaly, Rice, Smith)
1993 win 3-0 vs an okay Hawks (Nique, Willis)
1994 did not face anyone, by choice (but Bulls won 3-0 anyway)
1995 win 3-1 vs good Hornets (Mourning, L. Johnson)
1996 win 3-0 vs okay Heat (Mourning, Hardaway)
1997 win 3-0 vs okay Bullets (Webber, J. Howard, Strickland)
1998 win 3-0 vs okay Nets (Kittles, J. Williams, S. Douglas)
1999 did not face anyone, by choice
2000 did not face anyone, by choice
2001 did not face anyone, by choice
2002 did not make playoffs, finished 37-45
2003 did not make playoffs, finished 37-45

What were you intending to prove by cherrypicking? Anything?

His overall first round record was 31 wins, 15 losses, and four no-shows.
In the years when he didn't win the title, his 1st round W-L is 13-15.

[Grandpa Waiters]

p.s. http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... #NJN::none

Michael Ray Richardson was really good, a four-time All-Star, and had a Rondo-like stretch of games. You forgot Buck Williams, who belongs in the NBA Hall of the Very Good, and who had a monster series. You forgot Darryl Dawkins. Gminski was pretty good in limited minutes. Otis Birdsong was another four-time All-Star, and was an All-Star that season. Hell, even Bernard's brother was decent. That was a pretty good team, six deep in above-averageness. And **** sometimes happens in five games, the last game was decided by a bucket. And it was only after the Lakers repeated in 87-88 and the Pistons did it then the Bulls then the Rockets then the Bulls then the Lakers then blahblah Lakers blahblah Heat that stumbling the following season would seem not normal. Championship hangovers happen, it's common in every sport. Basketball can be unusual, in that success is so dependent on one or two great players. But even the best can get tripped up the season after winning (Duncan has built a Top 10 Ever career on that pattern!) and again, it was a five game series, decided by one bucket in Game 5, against a pretty good team. They had gone 45-37 that year, by the way. Not 42-40. They had also finished the year on a 19W-8L run. And this is basically your whole argu m ent against Dr. J, lol?

Yep. The six years the Bulls won titles they were 18-0 in first round series. Six sweeps. Next.

Right, okay, so I get appreciating Jordan's career aesthetically, the little cherrypicked ways his career arc makes for a perfect narrative arc. But man, that stuff should be kept in its place, don't waste your time trying to privilege those angles in the realm of substantive comparisons. So, for example:

Jordan's unabridged history of first rounds:
1985 loss 1-3 to a very good Bucks team (Moncrief, Cummings, Pressey)
1986 loss 0-3 to a great Celtics team (despite the disguised-as-God game)
1987 loss 0-3 to a great Celtics team (both series facing Bird, McHale, Parish)
1988 win 3-2 vs an okay Cavs team (facing Nance, Price, Daugherty, Harper)
1989 win 3-2 vs a very good Cavs team (by the slimmest of Game 5 margins)
1990 win 3-1 vs an okay Bucks (Robertson, R. Pierce, Pressey)
1991 win 3-0 vs a mediocre Knicks (Ewing, Kiki, Oakley)
1992 win 3-0 vs a mediocre Heat (Seikaly, Rice, Smith)
1993 win 3-0 vs an okay Hawks (Nique, Willis)
1994 did not face anyone, by choice (but Bulls won 3-0 anyway)
1995 win 3-1 vs good Hornets (Mourning, L. Johnson)
1996 win 3-0 vs okay Heat (Mourning, Hardaway)
1997 win 3-0 vs okay Bullets (Webber, J. Howard, Strickland)
1998 win 3-0 vs okay Nets (Kittles, J. Williams, S. Douglas)
1999 did not face anyone, by choice
2000 did not face anyone, by choice
2001 did not face anyone, by choice
2002 did not make playoffs, finished 37-45
2003 did not make playoffs, finished 37-45

What were you intending to prove by cherrypicking? Anything?

His overall first round record was 31 wins, 15 losses, and four no-shows.
In the years when he didn't win the title, his 1st round W-L is 13-15.

LOL. I'm proving that once Jordan started winning titles he dominated vs first round opponents (unlike Erving in '84). He was 18-0 in years the Bulls won titles and 21-1 overall. He ALWAYS took care of business in the first round, unlike Erving who lost to the lowly Nets in the first round trying to defend his title.

[wigglestrue]

So, you're just going to ignore the previous posts where it was established that those '84 Nets were actually pretty good, and had ended the season on a 19-8 run, had three All-Star caliber players, and only beat the Sixers in five games by one bucket in the 5th game. Not to mention that sometimes teams just have an off year. Again, you are elevating streakiness to the role of some big determinant in this comparison because it just so happens to favor the player whose jock you're riding. Dr. J was fading at that point, anyway. It'd be the equivalent of Jordan returning to play in 1999 and being upset in the first round by the Knicks. Jordan conveniently spared himself that risk, though. Avoided altogether his 14th, 15th, 16th seasons. Until he returned and couldn't even get his squad into the playoffs. Anyway, your fixation on one playoff series is revealing. It shows you're desperate. You know legitimate Jordan criticism when you see it, and it's harshing your buzz. Right?

[wigglestrue]

Speaking of legitimate Jordan criticism: How many Top 10-15 or Top 20-25 players at any age have ever played as prominent a role on a team with as bad a record as 37-45, let alone twice? You might object that he was old and those Washington teams were bad, but there've been all-timers who still managed as relics to keep a subpar roster above .500, yeah? He was the best, the GOAT, so why couldn't he? Before you even begin to answer, realize that you are about to make excuses for the GOAT, excuses which you have little patience for when it's other all-timers.

[Grandpa Waiters]

So, you're just going to ignore the previous posts where it was established that those '84 Nets were actually pretty good, and had ended the season on a 19-8 run, had three All-Star caliber players, and only beat the Sixers in five games by one bucket in the 5th game. Not to mention that sometimes teams just have an off year. Again, you are elevating streakiness to the role of some big determinant in this comparison because it just so happens to favor the player whose jock you're riding. Dr. J was fading at that point, anyway. It'd be the equivalent of Jordan returning to play in 1999 and being upset in the first round by the Knicks. Jordan conveniently spared himself that risk, though. Avoided altogether his 14th, 15th, 16th seasons. Until he returned and couldn't even get his squad into the playoffs. Anyway, your fixation on one playoff series is revealing. It shows you're desperate. You know legitimate Jordan criticism when you see it, and it's harshing your buzz. Right?

You mad? The '84 Nets were good? What did they ever accomplish? Erving lost more games in that first round series (3) than Jordan lost in the first round (2) in the 1990's. Erving losing in '84 is the equivalent of Jordan losing in the first round in '99? WRONG. I take it math wasn't your major. Erving was 34 in '84. Jordan was 37 in '99. How is that equivalent? Erving was fading at 34? So was MJ, who still managed to win two more rings though. Nice try.

[Grandpa Waiters]

Speaking of legitimate Jordan criticism: How many Top 10-15 or Top 20-25 players at any age have ever played as prominent a role on a team with as bad a record as 37-45, let alone twice? You might object that he was old and those Washington teams were bad, but there've been all-timers who still managed as relics to keep a subpar roster above .500, yeah? He was the best, the GOAT, so why couldn't he? Before you even begin to answer, realize that you are about to make excuses for the GOAT, excuses which you have little patience for when it's other all-timers.

There have been all-timers who still managed as relics to keep a subpar roster above .500? LOL. Name one.

[wigglestrue]

So, you're just going to ignore the previous posts where it was established that those '84 Nets were actually pretty good, and had ended the season on a 19-8 run, had three All-Star caliber players, and only beat the Sixers in five games by one bucket in the 5th game. Not to mention that sometimes teams just have an off year. Again, you are elevating streakiness to the role of some big determinant in this comparison because it just so happens to favor the player whose jock you're riding. Dr. J was fading at that point, anyway. It'd be the equivalent of Jordan returning to play in 1999 and being upset in the first round by the Knicks. Jordan conveniently spared himself that risk, though. Avoided altogether his 14th, 15th, 16th seasons. Until he returned and couldn't even get his squad into the playoffs. Anyway, your fixation on one playoff series is revealing. It shows you're desperate. You know legitimate Jordan criticism when you see it, and it's harshing your buzz. Right?

You mad? The '84 Nets were good? What did they ever accomplish? Erving lost more games in that first round series (3) than Jordan lost in the first round (2) in the 1990's. Erving losing in '84 is the equivalent of Jordan losing in the first round in '99? WRONG. I take it math wasn't your major. Erving was 34 in '84. Jordan was 37 in '99. How is that equivalent? Erving was fading at 34? So was MJ, who still managed to win two more rings though. Nice try.

How is it equivalent? Gee, maybe because Jordan took a couple years off? How many total games played, total minutes played did each of the two have after their 13th seasons? How many rings did Jordan win after his 13th season? I take it you didn't win the gold star for reading comprehension in elementary school? You bring up those Nets again. AGAIN: Those Nets had three All-Stars, three other solid players, finished 8 games over .500 in a brutally hard division, finished the regular season on a 19-8 tear that would've had them pegged as a Team You Don't Want to Play in a 1984 Grantland, and what they accomplished was...beating the defending world champions, the year after one of the greatest seasons ever, two Top 15-ish all-timers in Moses and Dr. J, just as many GOAT candidates as Jordan himself beat in his entire career. That's one hell of an accomplishment. Just like it was an accomplishment for the 1995 Magic to take out Jordan in the 2nd round, in 6 games, closing it out in Chicago. You airness jockeys love to minimize that series, I bet. Jordan wasn't all that rusty, he just finally went up against a Top 10 talent, even as a raw specimen, and while Jordan did beat them the next year, he LOST in 1995. So, one of the only two GOAT candidates Jordan ever beat in a playoff series, he also lost to. I bet you're regretting this now, yeah? So many little holes opening up in Jordan's perfect veneer.

[wigglestrue]

Speaking of legitimate Jordan criticism: How many Top 10-15 or Top 20-25 players at any age have ever played as prominent a role on a team with as bad a record as 37-45, let alone twice? You might object that he was old and those Washington teams were bad, but there've been all-timers who still managed as relics to keep a subpar roster above .500, yeah? He was the best, the GOAT, so why couldn't he? Before you even begin to answer, realize that you are about to make excuses for the GOAT, excuses which you have little patience for when it's other all-timers.

There have been all-timers who still managed as relics to keep a subpar roster above .500? LOL. Name one.

How about two, for starters, the guys Jordan thwarted twice: Stockton and Malone. Let's take Stockton, in his 19th season, past his 1500th game, at age 40 (with his 39-year-old buddy in his 18th season after his 1400th game) finishing 47-35?

[Grandpa Waiters]

So, you're just going to ignore the previous posts where it was established that those '84 Nets were actually pretty good, and had ended the season on a 19-8 run, had three All-Star caliber players, and only beat the Sixers in five games by one bucket in the 5th game. Not to mention that sometimes teams just have an off year. Again, you are elevating streakiness to the role of some big determinant in this comparison because it just so happens to favor the player whose jock you're riding. Dr. J was fading at that point, anyway. It'd be the equivalent of Jordan returning to play in 1999 and being upset in the first round by the Knicks. Jordan conveniently spared himself that risk, though. Avoided altogether his 14th, 15th, 16th seasons. Until he returned and couldn't even get his squad into the playoffs. Anyway, your fixation on one playoff series is revealing. It shows you're desperate. You know legitimate Jordan criticism when you see it, and it's harshing your buzz. Right?

You mad? The '84 Nets were good? What did they ever accomplish? Erving lost more games in that first round series (3) than Jordan lost in the first round (2) in the 1990's. Erving losing in '84 is the equivalent of Jordan losing in the first round in '99? WRONG. I take it math wasn't your major. Erving was 34 in '84. Jordan was 37 in '99. How is that equivalent? Erving was fading at 34? So was MJ, who still managed to win two more rings though. Nice try.

How is it equivalent? Gee, maybe because Jordan took a couple years off? How many total games played, total minutes played did each of the two have after their 13th seasons? How many rings did Jordan win after his 13th season? I take it you didn't win the gold star for reading comprehension in elementary school? You bring up those Nets again. AGAIN: Those Nets had three All-Stars, three other solid players, finished 8 games over .500 in a brutally hard division, finished the regular season on a 19-8 tear that would've had them pegged as a Team You Don't Want to Play in a 1984 Grantland, and what they accomplished was...beating the defending world champions, the year after one of the greatest seasons ever, two Top 15-ish all-timers in Moses and Dr. J, just as many GOAT candidates as Jordan himself beat in his entire career. That's one hell of an accomplishment. Just like it was an accomplishment for the 1995 Magic to take out Jordan in the 2nd round, in 6 games, closing it out in Chicago. You airness jockeys love to minimize that series, I bet. Jordan wasn't all that rusty, he just finally went up against a Top 10 talent, even as a raw specimen, and while Jordan did beat them the next year, he LOST in 1995. So, one of the only two GOAT candidates Jordan ever beat in a playoff series, he also lost to. I bet you're regretting this now, yeah? So many little holes opening up in Jordan's perfect veneer.

You still mad? It's hilarious watching you try and rationalize how the defending champion Sixers lost to the Nets by offering up such golden nuggets as "those nets had three all-stars" and "they finished eight games above .500" like that somehow justifies a defending NBA champion losing in the FIRST ROUND the following year. The ONLY all-star player the Nets had that year was Otis Birdsing. Old all-stars or future all-stars don't count. That's like saying the '98 Lakers had two of the top 15 players ever or the 1988 Bulls had two HOF. WRONG. Also, "they finished eight games above .500". That's comical. That's like saying the 1997 Bulls shouldn't be disappointed because they were knocked out of the first round of the playoffs by a team that finished eight games above .500. Who would ever argue something that ridiculous? Just you apparently. Also, Jordan was rusty in '95. Anyone who thinks you can take 18 months off, play 17 regular season games and be at your best at age 32 obviously doesn't know anything about athletics. The fact that Jordan had the regular season high (55 points) and playoff high (48 points) and led the Bulls to a 3-1 first round victory and had the Bulls 2-2 before losing to Orlando in the semi's only enhances his greatness. To be able to come in with only 17 games, no time to mesh with new teammates or get in basketball shape AND still get to within a few games of the ECF is remarkable. When Jordan got a full year to get back in form in '95-'96 they crushed Shaq and Orlando 4-0. I'm totally regretting this. ROTFL. Try again.

[Grandpa Waiters]

Speaking of legitimate Jordan criticism: How many Top 10-15 or Top 20-25 players at any age have ever played as prominent a role on a team with as bad a record as 37-45, let alone twice? You might object that he was old and those Washington teams were bad, but there've been all-timers who still managed as relics to keep a subpar roster above .500, yeah? He was the best, the GOAT, so why couldn't he? Before you even begin to answer, realize that you are about to make excuses for the GOAT, excuses which you have little patience for when it's other all-timers.

There have been all-timers who still managed as relics to keep a subpar roster above .500? LOL. Name one.

How about two, for starters, the guys Jordan thwarted twice: Stockton and Malone. Let's take Stockton, in his 19th season, past his 1500th game, at age 40 (with his 39-year-old buddy in his 18th season after his 1400th game) finishing 47-35?

I said to name one, tough guy, not two. Jordan was running solo on the Wiz. Give Jordan another all timer and he easily squeezes out ten more wins. NEXT.

[wigglestrue]

Meh, turns out there isn't a single all-timer who accomplished that feat singularly, although it's funny how Hakeem was still leading a good team along with Barkley in 1999, the very year Jordan skipped out on the second time he skipped out, both of those two in their 14th seasons. And also Pippen. It was the "Jordan Deprived Me of Glory" Club, lol. For a person who's so notoriously a decadent gambler, Jordan had a habit of averting risk when it seemed like victory wasn't assured. Until the Wizards, where he risked nothing, since it was attempted as a trifle on as bad a team as he possibly could have played on, where even a .500 record would've been a small accomplishment, and if not that, then oh well, he wasn't seriously trying to win again, so it doesn't count. But of course it counts, more than statistically, in that it shows Jordan shrinking from as direct a test of his greatness as possible, to protect his wind-aided image. Wilt would get relentlessly critiqued for that kind of pattern of vanity and withholding.

Anyway, you can have that point, I concede it. And I couldn't care less, because my side of this argument has never revolved around the outcome of a single playoff series, like yours. You are attached to your binky like a toddler, and I don't fight toddlers, so...there, there, it's okay. You can believe you won this whole argument, that's fine. Dispossessing you of that notion would almost be cruel, your palpable anxiety at being cornered makes me uncomfortable, I don't have the heart to sweep the leg.

[Grandpa Waiters]

Meh, turns out there isn't a single all-timer who accomplished that feat singularly, although it's funny how Hakeem was still leading a good team along with Barkley in 1999, the very year Jordan skipped out on the second time he skipped out, both of those two in their 14th seasons. And also Pippen. It was the "Jordan Deprived Me of Glory" Club, lol. For a person who's so notoriously a decadent gambler, Jordan had a habit of averting risk when it seemed like victory wasn't assured. Until the Wizards, where he risked nothing, since it was attempted as a trifle on as bad a team as he possibly could have played on, where even a .500 record would've been a small accomplishment, and if not that, then oh well, he wasn't seriously trying to win again, so it doesn't count. But of course it counts, more than statistically, in that it shows Jordan shrinking from as direct a test of his greatness as possible, to protect his wind-aided image. Wilt would get relentlessly critiqued for that kind of pattern of vanity and withholding.

Anyway, you can have that point, I concede it. And I couldn't care less, because my side of this argument has never revolved around the outcome of a single playoff series, like yours. You are attached to your binky like a toddler, and I don't fight toddlers, so...there, there, it's okay. You can believe you won this whole argument, that's fine. Dispossessing you of that notion would almost be cruel, your palpable anxiety at being cornered makes me uncomfortable, I don't have the heart to sweep the leg.

Wow. You still mad? We're simply debating a few mindless points on an internet forum with other basketball junkies for fun. Lighten up. BTW, sweep the leg....don't show your enemy (that would be me) any weakness.

[wigglestrue]

Honk.