ATFL Eastern: (2) Narigo vs. (7) MisterHibachi

[Doctor MJ]

Hate Melo on MH's team.

I actually really like the plan for Melo, but I'm not sold on Deron's role. To me moving Wade off-ball is something that only makes sense if you've got LeBron in there, and if he's on-ball, then what is Deron doing out there?

I don't see this as an issue, because Deron is an excellent off-ball guard. He actually prefers it at times.

And it's not like Wade ALWAYS played on-ball during his prime...he's an excellent cutter, and used to be a very good midrange shooter and would run off screens at times.

Deron's stature is based on his combination of scoring & playmaking. Not saying he's a terrible player if he's playing off-ball, but if you were looking to use that draft spot for a guy to focus on off-ball, would you really pick Deron?

Re: Wade not always on-ball. I'm not sure what you mean. I mean, I know there are plays where he was off-ball, but you don't volume score with 6 APG while developing the reputation as the most relentless driver in the game by being a guy people want to use off-ball.

[therealbig3]

Deron's stature is based on his combination of scoring & playmaking. Not saying he's a terrible player if he's playing off-ball, but if you were looking to use that draft spot for a guy to focus on off-ball, would you really pick Deron?

Re: Wade not always on-ball. I'm not sure what you mean. I mean, I know there are plays where he was off-ball, but you don't volume score with 6 APG while developing the reputation as the most relentless driver in the game by being a guy people want to use off-ball.

Well, for a PG, not sure there is a better off-ball PG than Deron...and I don't think it's that difficult to give both Deron and Wade their opportunities with the ball in their hands.

But perhaps Deron could be used as a super 6th man, similar to KJ in the previous matchup.

[MisterWestside]

first of all, I wasn't referring to this team but to Moses in general. his rebounding impact seems be absurdly exaggerated. look at a guy like Rodman. wherever he went, teams started destroying opposition on the glass. Rodman was dominating the glass in such a way that his teams were outrebounding the opposition. that was not the case with Moses. they were getting punked on their defensive glass. Moses put up stast but didn't make as big an impact as his numbers would suggest. he was nothing special as a defensive rebounder.

in this matchup he is facing one of the most terrifying fro's ever in Ben Wallace and personally I think he could get dominated on his own glass. that is less important though, given the huge mismatch that MH is going to have at PF position. Shawn Marion, as I pointed out, is a mismatch on the glass. if he wants Marion to play PF, he'll get punked. if he plays Melo at the 4, Melo absolutely cannot boxout LMA. then you have a guy like Marques who was an absolute beast on the offensive glass and could outmuscle any SF ever (few exceptions). Jordan is also a great offensive rebounding guard. so seeing those guys, you are right they would be a capable rebounding team in the NBA. but this is all-time league. I think Narigo would pound MH on the offensive glass. perimeter rebounding is nice but a little bit offset by perimeter rebounding from Jordan's team... however the real problem is that their 2 big men are not great defensive rebounders and one is facing Ben Wallace and the other is facing a mismatch.

so once again, I think this is another huge coaching blunder by MH. small ball with those players is a bad idea to me.

Comparing any player to arguably the best rebounder ever in Rodman is unfair. Of course Malone is going to look unfavorable in a comparison to Rodman. Almost every player would be.

As to impact, it's largely team-dependent, and this team is not the '80s Rockets or Sixers. And you can't have it both ways, either: you can't claim that Malone wouldn't impact his team here while also talking about how everyone else would be mismatched. If that's the case, then that's exactly why they would need Malone on the floor. He's easily the best starting rebounder on this team (and, on the bench, I'd rather him as a rebounder than either Eaton or Ibaka). Plus his willingness to go to work inside would allow everyone else to guard their assignments, which would help with defending shots on the perimeter in the first place.

Either everyone else can do their job on the glass with Malone leading the way, or they can't and need Malone to be the main glass cleaner. Either way, he'd impact this team.

[Doctor MJ]

Well, for a PG, not sure there is a better off-ball PG than Deron...and I don't think it's that difficult to give both Deron and Wade their opportunities with the ball in their hands.

But perhaps Deron could be used as a super 6th man, similar to KJ in the previous matchup.

I'd say much of my point here is that I wouldn't try to surround Wade with a point. Wade is clearly one of those guys who is called a 2 simply because people like to call scorers 2's instead of 1. Him playing his role, means you're looking for an off-guard to pair with him.

Now, despite my skepticism, I can see the argument that Deron is such a talent that he's actually better in such a role than any other type of guy you could hope to get, but unless I"m mistaken it's not the strategy here so it's moot.

Re: Deron 6th man like KJ. While I don't think the fit there is quite as apt, this is about what I'd typically expect given the draft position. Speaking of which, I guess I"m just confused why you draft Iggy as a starter, and then don't use him in matchup where you have the scariest possible 2/3 on the other side. Apologies if this is in the thread and I'm just blanking, but to me this is where Iggy earns his keep.

[bastillon]

first of all, it was a mistake to play mismatched in the first place. MH doesn't even get an offensive advantage out of this because LMA can easily guard Marion and Marques is the perfect Melo defender. so to me that decision made no sense whatsoever.

second, with guys playing out of position dominant defensive rebounder is definitely what you want and you are right about that. however Moses was not that guy. his defensive rebounding individually was pretty good, but it wasn't all-time great (22% DRB or so is about as good as Larry Bird). on a team level it looked worse though, which counts more. Moses didn't seem to impact team defensive rebounding very much and to me not only does he not mitigate the problems they have, he actually loses his rebounding matchup with Ben Wallace on the defensive glass, which further makes your problem worse.

[MisterWestside]

first of all, it was a mistake to play mismatched in the first place. MH doesn't even get an offensive advantage out of this because LMA can easily guard Marion and Marques is the perfect Melo defender. so to me that decision made no sense whatsoever.

second, with guys playing out of position dominant defensive rebounder is definitely what you want and you are right about that. however Moses was not that guy. his defensive rebounding individually was pretty good, but it wasn't all-time great (22% DRB or so is about as good as Larry Bird). on a team level it looked worse though, which counts more. Moses didn't seem to impact team defensive rebounding very much and to me not only does he not mitigate the problems they have, he actually loses his rebounding matchup with Ben Wallace on the defensive glass, which further makes your problem worse.

If LMA is played, just play Malone and Ibaka together.

Wallace would make Malone work on the glass. But that's fine, because that the specific role you want him to fulfill so that the strength of the defense (the perimeter) can work. Who else is up to the task of tussling with Wallace? Not playing Malone would hurt this roster, because then players would have to work more at rebounding at the expense of playing the perimeter. You could compensate on defense with the better all-around interior defender in Eaton, but you'd be lacking on the offensive end. Again, Malone would impact this team. Push out however you thought he fit on other rosters and try to think about how he fits here.

(IMO, a Williams-Wade-Iguodala-Ibaka-Malone lineup would be awesome on both ends. Switching Iggy for Anthony would also work.)

[MisterHibachi]

I did expect my closing line up to be Wade-Iggy-Melo-Marion-Moses. That lineup can score on anyone and the perimeter defense is great too. LMA might hurt Marion inside, but I don't really trust LMA to consistently dominate him, and if he does so, I'll live with it cuz it won't be Jordan beating me. And if LMA really does goes off or my rebounding is hurting, I can bring in Ibaka for either Marion or Melo, depending on the condition of my offense.

I think Moses' faults are being a bit overblown. I'm not asking him to carry the team, I have way too many offensive options to ask one guy to carry them. But Moses drew plenty of fouls, which is a very important skill, and I don't think even Ben Wallace could stop him. He was a dominant offensive rebounder, black hole in the paint or not, he got offensive boards and drew fouls, that's important. On defense, he had a DREB% of 23.8. That's average for a big man. He's not a liability on the boards at all. Additionally, I have good perimeter rebounders. A combined effort from them all will be more than enough, imo.

Re: Deron and off-ball. He had a good 3 pointer and he knew how to move. That's all you need from your off ball guys. If Wade gets trapped on pick and rolls, Deron, Melo, Iggy are all good enough creators to receive the pass and make a move 4 on 3.

[MisterWestside]

Moses would certainly be key for your offense. He could post up and keep the defense on their toes in the paint, and that would divert defensive pressure away from your jump-shot happy perimeter players (Iggy, Melo, Ibaka, Marion) and off-ball cutters (Deron, Wade). You wouldn't need for him to be some point-center, just tilt the floor away from others so they can go to work. Wade and Deron give you plenty already in the assist-making category.

[Doctor MJ]

Okay: Gun to my head, I'll go with Narigo.

Obviously it's a big advantage to have Jordan. I also really like the combo with the other MJ and the rest of the starting lineup around him. There's an issue with depth on the team, seemingly going maybe a bit too far in the fit vs talent, but Jordan's an iron man, and it's easy to see all of this working as long as he's out there - AND it should be noted that the team building approach that Chicago used with Jordan has a lot in common with this.

Hibachi, I think you did a good job given where you got to draft. I think you overthought yourself a little in the matchup here, but in the end I'm not sure what would have convinced me to go against Narigo.

[MisterHibachi]

Yeah, I'm realizing my coaching decisions probably weren't the best. I thought it was the best strategy tho, you guys obviously think differently and nothing wrong with that.

I feel I'm beating myself here. Narigo hasn't even posted his strategy yet and he's already got 4 votes. That or Jordan is simply unbeatable.

[MisterHibachi]

bastillon: Narigo
TMACFORMVP
penbeast0
ronnymac2
Doctor MJ: Narigo
SideshowBob
Texas Chuck: Narigo
therealbig3: Narigo

[ronnymac2]

Wait, what the ****? How does a team without a writeup have 4 votes? A writeup is required.

I'm not voting in any direction until both participants have a writeup in.

[john248]

Narigo hasn't even posted his strategy yet and he's already got 4 votes. That or Jordan is simply unbeatable.

I didn't even realize this. lol Then again, given the make-up of his team, it was easy to see where he was going. But who knows...Narigo could've completely screwed it up.

[Narigo]

Im probably going to edit this post again later because im not quite finished with the matchup writeup. So this is what I have so far.


Starting Lineup
I’m probably start off with Scott, Jordan, Johnson, Aldridge, and Sikma for my starting lineup. I’m probably going to start of playing man to man defense.
-Scott is going to defend Williams,
-Jordan is going to defend Wade for stretches and then Melo ,
-Johnson is going to defend to Melo for stretches and Wade,
-Aldridge is going to defend Marion
-Sikma is defending Moses.

Bench
-Hinrich, Cooper, Jones, and Wallace will mostly be coming off the bench.
-Hinrich will mostly backing up Scott. But he will also be playing with Scott also.
Cooper is backing up Jordan at the 2. He will be defending Wade.
-Wallace is backing up Sikma. I might play Wallace/Sikma as my power forward and Center only if Mister Hibachi is playing Ibaka and Moses or Eaton together on the court. Wallace will be defending Moses Malone mostly when he plays.
-Jones will backup Aldridge. He will defend Wade, Marion and Melo during stretches in various parts in the game.
- I would like to use Korver but I think Mister Hibachi’s team is way too athletic on the perimeter. So, I’m probably not going to use him as much. But I should have enough 3 point and perimeter shooting.

Other Lineups I should use
PG: Hinrich
SG: Scott
SF: Jordan
PF: Aldridge
C: Sikma/Wallace
I like this lineup if I’m going to play against Mister Hibachi’s starting 5. This forces Melo to defend Jordan. Since Melo is not quick enough to guard Scott. Also spacing wouldn’t be an issue even with Wallace on the court because Henrich, Scott and Aldridge are good shooters.
Hinrich would defend Wade in this matchup. I like this a lot because Hinrich is actually one of the best Wade defenders.




So this is why my team can beat MHs team……

Average Defense in the Starting Lineup

The bad thing about MH’s starting lineup is that outside of Wade and Marion, he doesn’t have any strong defenders in his starting lineup. Melo is going to start off defending Johnson so I can probably run isos with Johnson. My perimeter guys, Scott, Jordan and Johnson can run pick rolls through Aldridge and Sikma.

-I going to run some triangle offense by throwing the ball to Sikma in the low post then have Jordan and Johnson cut to the lane similar to what this video describes here 2 minutes in. Sikma is going handoff the ball to Jordan for a score.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eewCYox5MuI[/youtube]

I don’t mind running this play with Jordan and Sikma here either.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_nXz2BujjU[/youtube]

Scoring in Transition
Since MH’s team is going to be concentrating on grabbing offensive rebounds. They are probably not going be focused on transition defense as much as they like to. Most of my team likes to run in transition. Jordan, Johnson, and Scott are going to scary in transition. I might have put Wallace in to somewhat limit Moses on the offensive boards so my team will be out and ready to run.

Defense Versatility
Another way I can compete with MH’s team is my defense. I have a number of defenders to throw on Williams, Wade and Melo while giving Jordan a break on defense. Ben Wallace should be an able to limit Moses Malone a bit on the Offensive glass. He is the best defensive rebounding big in this matchup.

[Quotatious]

I'm afraid you guys voted for Narigo's team even before he gave his gameplan just because of two words: Michael Jordan. A bit disappointing, if you ask me...

[Narigo]

I'm afraid you guys voted for [b]Narigo's team[/b] just because of two words:[/b] Michael Jordan. A bit disappointing, if you ask me...

Sounds good enough for me

[ardee]

Sorry to go against you here Narigo, but this whole thing really isn't fair to Hibachi.

I think a re-vote is in order.

[Narigo]

its cool. It did take me a long time to do a write up

[O_6]

Marques Johnson's 1982 season does not qualify as he only played 60 games, and 62 games out of 82 games are required according to the rules of the league.

So instead of 80-82 Johnson (20.9 PER -- .580 TS%), Narigo would have to choose 83-85 Johnson (18.4 PER -- .524 TS%). 83-85 Johnson was still a very good player but he was a little less athletic and valuable than he was in his true peak of 80-82.

Marques Johnson is the key player in this matchup imo. We know what Jordan can do and we know that the fit around Jordan for Narigo's team seems very good. But Marques Johnson was selected in the 2nd round to be an all-around skilled 2 way SF who could help Jordan much like Pippen did. I think his 80-82 version is similar level player to Pippen, I think I'd still take Pippen's 94-96 over him because Pippen was a better perimeter defender and 3 point shooter than 80-82 Johnson. As a best player on a team, it's really tough to choose between these 2 versions of Johnson and Pippen. As a wing partner to pair next to Jordan in 2014? I feel like the answer to that is Pippen.

And that's 80-82 Johnson. 83-85 is a lesser version of Marques Johnson, and we need to figure out which version we get for this tournament. I do think I would give Narigo the benefit of a doubt because he made this selection at the end of the 2nd round, and I remember there being some confusion about the yearly eligibility rules for this contest. Since Narigo picked him early on when there may have been some confusion, I would allow him to use 80-82 Johnson. But that's only my opinion, especially since he only missed the cut by 2 games. He didn't meet the requirement and a decision needs to be made.

[ronnymac2]

Pleasantly surprised here. I don't think I've ever seen a Jordan-led team that had such a great fit like Narigo's team has. MisterHibachi's team is unorthodox, but I think he picked the right players for the right roles. Good job guys.

When Narigo is on offense, obviously Jordan and LMA are going to be featured. Wade/Iggy/Marion is probably the best rotation of man defenders to pit against MJ that a coach can ask for. I actually think I would have opted for Iggy/Marion to be the primary on Jordan and save Wade to help protect the rim, then have Melo try and guard Aldridge. Having Marion guard LMA isn't bad I suppose, but Matrix's perimeter D is his real strength. Aldridge is a monster mid-post player and has a clear size advantage. This is a good matchup for Narigo.

What I don't like about this team is the lack of a true floor general type point guard during big spots of the game. I would have liked somebody to decide when to go with a hot LMA, when to run Sikma to the high post, when to deliver the ball to a cutter in Marques Johnson. Somebody who takes the ball out of MJ's hands and makes MJ an even more potent scorer. Somebody to direct the fastbreak with perhaps the finest fastbreak finishing core around (MJ, LMA, Marques, Byron, Coop...Insanity). Hinrich definitely works, but how much burn is he getting?

Some of these concerns are alleviated because of the passing and shooting of the bigs — Bobby Jones, Jack Sikma, LMA. Ben Wallace wasn't terrible — he's a great offensive rebounder and solid stand-still passer. Johnson and Coop could certainly handle the ball (both played backup point duties at certain times in these years selected).

It's not the best matchup for Moses or Marion, but as I said, Iggy/Wade/Marion is an amazing trio for MJ, and I think that perimeter core makes life difficult for Coop, Scott, and even Marques at times.

Eaton better be in only when Big Ben is in, because otherwise, his defense likely won't have the intended effect since Sikma stays on the perimeter. I like Ibaka's defense here though. His style of D is a good mesh with the perimeter defenders and then Moses/Eaton.

When MisterHibachi is on offense, he's got Wade being the man, running a Miami-style offense except they've also got a the GOAT offensive rebounder here. That's a pretty sick offense. Wade is one of the GOAT creators on the perimeter. Best thing is, Wade is also very good off-ball as an offensive rebounder, cutter, pindown post player, etc. I think he and Deron fit well, because not only are they both excellent off-ball, but they are excellent off-ball in different ways. Wade is how I described above, while Deron is a great shooter from anywhere. I think they work well.

Melo is being asked to limit the iso scoring and instead be a spot-up shooter. He's being asked to let Wade/Williams/Iggy create for him. I buy it. He's been this whole time in NY doing exactly that, and ever since 2009 really, he's limited the amount of chucker-type shots he takes. Playing with Billups, then Felton/Kidd/Prigs really makes him better. I think Deron/Iggy/Wade have the same effect on him. He's playing with a smart group of perimeter players. I think Melo is good here.

I definitely don't buy Moses as a scoring threat off the pick-n-roll (Moses is nowhere near Tyson Chandler as a roll threat), but Ibaka is good here (good finisher, great jump shot). Still, even if it is Moses setting the screen, a pick gets Wade off and gives him a step, meaning he's creating for Melo, Williams, or J-Rich. Marion and Iggy are capable threats from deep as well. That's a very scary offense.

And when they run...remember when I said MJ/LMA/Scott/Coop/Marques are crazy on the break? Well, Iggy/Matrix/Wade/J-Rich, with Deron handling/spotting up and Melo spotting up...that's bonkers. THEY might be the best on the break.

I like that MH said Moses postups will be limited. I don't mind quick hitters where Marion/Ibaka set a cross screen for Moses and he pins down the smaller Sikma/Ben and just turns and lays the ball up with a foul. That was Moses' game along with GOAT offensive rebounding. He's not a creator, but he'll finish.

I think Moses presents a real problem here because of his power game. That said, Sikma was pretty tough and led the NBA in defensive rebound rate in 1982 while being top-5 the other years selected, so he's a decent foil for Moses at least.

I'm really stumped here. Both teams are great but have a few flaws that could be exposed. Narigo's is the lack of a true floor-general type aside from Hinrich (and it's unclear how much burn Kirk gets here). I think that flaw puts a cap on the offensive effectiveness of the team. MisterHibachi's is the defensive personnel/gameplan. Not liking their rim protection or the help defense of their big-minute big men (particularly Moses, and even Eaton if he's tasked with defending Sikma). I think LMA has a big series, too. I really like Marion's defense, but I don't see that working out well against Aldridge.

I'm going to give this a little while longer before voting. Really not sure yet.