RealGM Top 100 List #7

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#41 » by DQuinn1575 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:17 am

Owly wrote:
It's not that what you're saying is wrong (for most of his career, Bird was considered better, he did spend more time as the clear cut best in the game). It's that's that doesn't make a good case (though there may be one factoring in D, and perhaps, maybe a more explicit dissection of how much better Bird was those first few years, not sure about this;)



Okay 1980 Lakers improved 2.44 SRS - Celtics 12.15 SRS. Bird joined a 29 win team that he led to championship in 2 years. Magic was behind Nixon in assists, behind Wilkes and Jabbar in scoring, and behind Jabbar and Chones in rebounding.

Magic has the famous playoff game - but Bird has WAY more impact that year

1981- 1st Magic misses 1/2 the year. Then shoots 38% in playoff loss, including terrible 2nd game.
Bird leads a team that won 29 games two years earlier to NBA title.

1982- Magic 2nd team all-league. In Finals he was 2nd in team in assists and 5th in scoring. He wins Finals MVP that could have gone to Wilkes, Jabbar, Nixon, Magic - maybe even McAdoo.

Bird's defense was unique - he got a lot of steals on weakside help, and got a lot of boards. He was also a master of throwing long baseball passes after made baskets that led to easy layups.

After these 3 years Magic gets better and closes the gap, but Bird is still a better player the next four years.

I guess my question to those who pick Magic is - At what point in his career does Magic pass Bird? 1989? 1990?1991?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#42 » by Clyde Frazier » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:17 am

acrossthecourt wrote:
andrewww wrote:My main knock on him is the ceiling of his teams (their potential if you will when compared to other historically great teams) when you consider how the jury is still out if LeBron can maximize his impact if his team were to become more traditional with him at the SF spot. It`s worth nothing that most people would consider that in the post-Jordan era, the clear two best teams both over the long haul (1999-present) and in individual seasons (2001 Lakers or 2014 Spurs) have been the Lakers and Spurs, and that none of the 2 title teams for LeBron are among the pantheon of all-time great teams for a reason (the lack of true big men in the current era makes it much easier to have small ball thrive).

LeBron remained a SF with the Heat.... Battier was the PF, not LeBron.


LeBron has been designated as a PF the last 2 seasons:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sle01.html
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#43 » by RSCD3_ » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:18 am

therealbig3 wrote:
I'm more impressed by Garnett's defense from just the sheer intelligence he displays, combined with his incredible physical gifts. ElGee made a pretty great post about this, how even Hakeem isn't his equal in terms of "horizontal" defense (lateral quickness, mobility, timing, rotations, diagnosing plays, recovery, angles, etc). As a result, I think Garnett is a slightly better defender, and imo, the best defensive player since Russell...I understand if people don't agree, however.

Also, I think Hakeem was the better player, prime vs prime. Even if Garnett was the better defender (not a given), Hakeem is better offensively, and that's a bigger difference.

I give Garnett an edge with regards to longevity though, but not really a big one. I'm probably going to pick Hakeem. Better player, close enough longevity.

I personally have Hakeem at #4...if it wasn't for Shaq not being off the board for the last few threads, I would have voted for him a while
ago.


Yeah I don't see that strong of an argument for KG over Hakeem

KG was more effective as a lateral defender and Hakeem was a better rim protector, they were both very versatile dominant defenders.

However Hakeem has provided more offense to his team while maintaining ( at worst ) , a little bit less defense than KG.

Their passing skills appear to be close but I think Hakeem had more of an impact as a passer because he frequented the low post more.

It just seems that Hakeem's advantage on offense far trumps KG's possible advantage on defense.

If Doctor MJ, or drza or any Hakeem supporter could prove to me that KG had more of an advantage on defense than Hakeem did on offense I would seriously consider him as my 7th pick


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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#44 » by andrewww » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:18 am

rico381 wrote:I am once again voting for LeBron James.

I've made the case for him in detail before, and I've copied it with slight edits inside spoiler tags here:
Spoiler:
The most impressive thing to me about LeBron is his peak-level performance. LeBron's an incredibly tough guy to pin down in terms of a one-year peak; partly because his game has evolved as he's had different situations around him, and partly because he's got more truly historically great seasons than anyone else still on the board. This recent thread asked people to rank LeBron's 5 best seasons (09, 10, 12-14), and there wasn't a huge consensus. Most had 09, 12, and 13 as the top 3 in some order and 10 and 14 below, but all five are all-timers in their own right. Just looking at the worst of those, in 2010 he averaged 29.7-7.3-8.6 on .604 TS%, good for a 31.1 PER and .299 WS/48 (both PER and WS/48 rank in the top 10 single-season marks all-time), and in 2014 his numbers slipped a bit, but he led the league in RAPM, then had one of the greatest playoff runs ever (.668 TS%, 31.1 PER).

Looking at raw totals, LeBron's longevity is on the lower end, but certainly not devastatingly so. He's now up to 33276 career regular-season minutes. Magic had 33245. Bird had 34443. Jordan played 35887 in Chicago. In terms of per-minute impact, I'd put LeBron closer to the Jordan end of that scale than the Magic/Bird end, too. As a result, LeBron already looks great by cumulative statistics. He's 15th overall in career win shares, well above Magic and Bird, who played roughly the same amount of minutes but at a lower level. He's also ahead of Hakeem, even though Hakeem played much longer than LeBron. Looking at things that reward a concentrated distribution of value a bit more (as championship odds do), he's 3rd overall in MVP shares, behind only Jordan and Kareem (some bias towards recent players there with deeper ballots, but as the majority of Bron's shares come from 4 near-unanimous MVPs and an unquestioned 2nd-place finish, he didn't gain from them as much as, say, Kevin Durant did). He's also 6th in RPOY shares (behind Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Wilt, and Magic).

In the playoffs, LeBron is a bit behind the most decorated greats with super teams in terms of longevity, but five finals runs will take you pretty far. LeBron has played 6717 playoff minutes. Magic, Wilt, Russell, and Jordan all played around 7500 each (disclaimers about number of rounds obviously apply for the old-timers). Bird is at 6886. Olajuwon, whose playoff performance is perhaps his strongest argument, only played 5749, and Dirk, who similarly is boosted for great playoff performances, only has 5544. In terms of total value accrued in the playoffs, then, LeBron holds up just fine. He's fourth in career playoff win shares, behind only Jordan, Duncan, and Kareem (all the disclaimers about shorter playoffs for old-timers count double here, as the first round is when you get the easiest wins, but still very impressive to be ahead of Shaq and Hakeem here).

I stuck to cumulative metrics above not because they're the best way to evaluate players (they're not), but rather to illustrate that even if we choose the method that is most harmed by a lack of longevity, LeBron can still hold his own. If we look at per-minute and per-possession numbers to look directly at the level of play LeBron is giving you while he's on the court, nobody else can really compete. No matter what aspect you look at, LeBron is as good as anyone.

Box score statistics: averages of 28-7-7 per game on .580 TS% in a very slow era over his last 10 years (excluding only rookie year), with very steady production year-to-year other than steadily increasing shooting efficiency. Four of the top 11 years in WS/48, and Jordan, Kareem, and WIlt have other seven. Four of the top 11 seasons in PER, and again only Jordan, Kareem, and Wilt beat him even once. If you prefer career averages, LeBron is 5th overall in WS/48 (behind only Jordan, Robinson, Wilt, and Paul), and 2nd in PER (behind Jordan, and only by .1 points). Those numbers are boosted by not yet including a decline phase, but LeBron has such a huge lead it's hard to imagine him falling far at all, especially when we see that his peak and prime is so much higher than almost everyone else.

Plus-Minus data: RAPM and similar metrics have all consistently had LeBron as on par with KG and Shaq as the very best players of the era. His peak is as high as anyone, and sustained over many years. Even some multi-year samples that include a lot of pre-prime LeBron and exclude some of his best years (i.e. the 02-11 RAPM on Colts' site) has LeBron as the #1 player of the era, with a 1-point lead over his only challenger in KG and a 3-point lead over Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, and Nash, even with a sample just about perfect for grabbing their primes and little else. Data from his (rare) missed games in Cleveland and consistently great raw on-off numbers only back this conclusion up. The eye test, while not computationally as powerful as RAPM, can also tell that LeBron's impact would hold up beyond basic stats. He's an excellent passer, and spaces the floor very well (especially when at the four), two of the most important things for +/- data that may slip through the box score. In contrast to someone like Wilt, who was known for chasing stats above all else, LeBron's defining trait might be "making the right play", rejecting the hero-ball narrative and getting his teammates involved, even with the game on the line.

Defense: This is harder to measure than some of the other stuff, and LeBron is obviously not Hakeem/Duncan level here, but he's still one of the great perimeter defenders of all time. By every measure I've seen, whether in the box score, plus-minus data, or popular acclaim, LeBron rates out very well. His size and athleticism make him very versatile, and without that versatility from him (and, to a lesser degree, Wade), I doubt the Heat's trapping style would work at all. I rate LeBron's defense as similar to that of Jordan or of Kareem, Shaq, and the second or third tier of defensive bigs, and it's in that half of the game that he really separates himself from Magic and Bird, average at best players on that end.

Playoff performance: This is one area detractors harp on with narrative-based attacks, but even with a couple hiccups (like everyone has once you've ranked Jordan and Russell), LeBron's performance is as good as anyone's. He won two finals MVPs in very convincing fashion, and was the best individual player in this year's finals, too (admittedly, this was in much less convincing fashion). He's third in career playoff WS/48 and PER, behind only Jordan and Mikan in both cases. I don't have his numbers in elimination games at my fingertips, but I've seen them posted many times, and they are incredible. He might be the all-time leader in PPG in elimination games, or behind only Jordan, if I recall correctly.

Off-court issues: LeBron has been basically a model citizen in this regard. Some fans perceive him as having a large ego and judge him harshly for it, but in terms of building a camaraderie among teammates and a happy environment, LeBron is excellent here. The chemistry in Cleveland and Miami were both clear even to outside observers, and the teams just loved playing together. This isn't a super important category (unless you really screw it up), but there are no concerns here for LeBron. If you're going to hold leaving as a free agent and going to Miami against him, then you better knock Oscar Robertson a long way down your rankings , as he's responsible for enabling decades of such behavior with his lawsuit.

Clutch Performance: Part of this is covered in his playoff performances, and another part is about how he performs in late-game situations. Some fans knocked him for this due to his famously passing up some shots to get teammates wide-open threes on the final possessions of the game. The evidence just doesn't back them up, though. What's crazy is, I want to say they're wrong because "hero ball doesn't work; you should just make the right basketball play and find the open man", but that's not entirely accurate. It's more like "Hero ball doesn't work, unless you have LeBron". League efficiency tends to go down in those scenarios, but LeBron's shown a propensity for incredible clutch performances over the years. 82games has been tracking clutch stats for the past six years, with clutch defined as "4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points". By their numbers, in 08-09 LeBron averaged 55.9 points, 14.3 rebounds, and 12.6 assists per 48 minutes of clutch time, on .556/.421/.85 shooting splits (.693 TS%). Cleveland outscored their opponents by 103 points in 111 minutes of clutch time that year, or +45 per 48 minutes. In 09-10, he averaged 66.1-15.9-8.3-3.2-3.2 per 48, on .488/.340/.80 shooting (.630 TS%). Cleveland outscored their opponents by 116 points over 151 minutes in those situations, or +37 over 48 minutes. After relative down years (by his standards), LeBron picked back up at a pretty great pace in 12-13, when he averaged 38.7-15.2-14.9 per 48, on .442/.280/.76 shooting (.555 TS%). While the individual numbers aren't as crazy, Miami outscored opponents by 125 points over 161 minutes of clutch time with LeBron, or +37 per 48 minutes, and this was a big factor in their 26-game winning streak. They could basically take it easy for much of the game, then turn it on in the second half if they needed to and overcome any deficit they might've accrued. I generally don't believe there's much merit to clutch performances, but this is stuff that just should not be possible. 66 points per 48 on .630 TS% for a slow team in the modern NBA, in the most important time of the game? Outscoring opponents by about three or four times as much per minute as the best season-long marks in NBA history, entirely in game-deciding moments? If anyone tries to tell you LeBron wasn't clutch before coming to Miami, or before the 2012 championship run, they could not be more wrong.

Team Success: While *only* having two titles might put him behind some of these guys, LeBron has led some very successful teams using very different styles. He led a 66-win, 8.68 SRS Cavs team in 2009 that almost always had two bigs on the floor and used their size to their advantage, with basketball-reference saying LeBron was at SF 74% of the time. The team had a +10.0 efficiency differential, which actually increased to +15.0 with LeBron on the floor (compared to -6.2 while he sat, a net difference of 21.2 points). He went to Miami, and peaked there with a 66-win, 7.03 SRS team in 2013. That team was all about surrounding LeBron with shooters and spacing the floor, and used LeBron at PF in 82% of his minutes (and at C in another 9%). Their +8.6 efficiency differential increased to +13.2 with LeBron on the floor, compared to -2.1 when he sat (a net difference of 15.3 points). That's very impressive versatility, leading two entirely different 66-win teams, both as the unquestioned #1 man (and near-unanimous league MVP), and doing it in not only two different roles but at two different positions entirely.


The (relatively) short version:
-By box score metrics like WS/48 and PER, he's get the #1, #2, #3, and #4 best seasons of players not yet on the list (four of the top 11 overall. For his career, he's 2nd in RS PER, and 5th in WS/48. then 3rd in both PER and WS/48 in the playoffs. Unless you're arguing for Mikan, nobody else comes close.

-BY RAPM, he's got three of the top 6 seasons of the 98-14 era (and three of the top-4 post-99, if you're worried about the very first season of that data). In most of the multi-season samples, he finishes #1 overall, even in time frames that seem to favor other players' primes.

-Quite possibly the most complete player ever. His scoring gets kinda forgotten because of all his other skills, but he's third in NBA history in career points per game, and just had back-to-back seasons of >30% USG and >.640 TS%. Purely as a volume scorer, he's one of the greatest in NBA history. You can say the same thing about other facets of his game, though. He's top-25 in AST%, ranking first among non-PGs. His court vision is truly incredible, and I'd argue that he's the best non-PG passer ever (Bird and Manu would have an argument, but they seem to have a bit more flash and a bit less pure effectiveness. And you could say make a similar argument for his defense, where he has unmatched versatility, and where he ranks even with the Pippens and the Jordans as one of the best perimeter defenders ever.

-Dominated the NBA as the clear-cut best player for longer than anyone except Jordan and Kareem. Since 09, LeBron has resided in a unique position so far above the rest of the league as to have virtually no challengers who can lay an honest claim to being better than him; a position most all-time greats are lucky to hold for a year or two. And it's not like he hasn't had challengers, either. 2009 featured peak Wade averaging 30-5-7.5 with 2.2 steals and 1.3 blocks, all on .574 TS%. It featured Chris Paul putting up a 30.0 PER and .292 WS/48, both of which rank as the #1 seasons of all time among PGs. It featured Kobe in his prime leading the Lakers to an incredibly dominant season. If only those players were around, it would not have been a down year for the MVP. And yet not only did LeBron beat them all for MVP, he won with 97% of the vote, one of the top 10 margins ever. 2013 was a similar story. Kevin Durant put up 28 ppg on a .647 TS% and would've been a very deserving MVP. Yet LeBron so completely outplayed him as to win the MVP with a record 99.8% of the vote.

That's the big-picture difference between LeBron and the other contenders here. Magic and Bird traded off MVPs, then faded a bit when Jordan came in. Hakeem didn't even separate himself from Robinson, Malone, Barkley, and Ewing except for in the playoffs in his best couple years. Garnett was seen as even at best with Duncan, and often closer to DIrk and Kobe instead. LeBron came in against similarly elite competition, and left no doubt about who was better.


I won`t dispute the RS dominance by LeBron as I`m in agreement with most here that he may have been the best player ever when it comes to `carrying`teams that were generally inferior in talent as long as the floor was spaced with 3pt shooters which is always the style has has worked best from LeBron.

Having said that, while he is most certainly one of the most versatile defenders I`m strongly against the notion that he is on par with someone like Pippen defensively. LeBron has played defense in spurts ever since he was recognized with this first all-defensive team selection, very rarely has he demonstrated the ability to both run the offense and play this GOAT-level defense which is a common myth.

I`d say the 2012 Finals MVP was convincing no doubt (despite the blatant non call where he fouled Durant at the end of game 2 that made it a 1-1 series rather than a 2-0 OKC lead), but his 2013 Finals MVP was most definitely not convincing. The end of game 6 was a disaster for LeBron truth be told, it was game 7 where he really shined but the rest of the series he was very pedestrian by his own great standards.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2013_finals.html#MIA::none

LeBron`s 2013 Finals Stats
PPG 25.3
RBG 10.9
APG 7.0
SPG 2.3
BPG 0.9
FG% .447
3FG% .353
FT% .795

If you throw out his 2007 Finals Stats as an outlier given how overmatched his team was, even then he performed below expectation for 2 out of his 4 Finals with the Heat (2011, 2013).

His FG% drop from his RS% of .565 to .447 is over a drop of 10%. I`m not sure how this could be considered a great series by him. Even at the end of game 4 where Wade was the player of the game, he chose to pad his stats at the very end.

His 4 MVPs are most definitely impressive and deserved, but level of competition does factor in to this. In the 2000s, you had Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, and KG dualing it out for MVPs. The only competition close to his level now is Durant. Much much easier to stack up on the allocades.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#45 » by fatal9 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:19 am

ronnymac2 wrote:
acrossthecourt wrote:And remember, the Sonics beat them in '93, which is probably his best season, yet they lost in the first round in '94. With Jordan's retirement and that loss, the Rockets were lucky.


What does this have to do with Hakeem Olajuwon?

I wonder the same thing. In '93, the Rockets opened their season in Japan in B2B games vs. the Sonics. The team still hadn't come together yet and played a couple of listless, forgettable games. Until the flight to Japan, the team and organization weren't even sure if Hakeem was going to be there for the season. Then the two teams faced off mid-season twice and split those games. Then they played a tight playoff series that came down to the last possessions of a game 7 and the difference may have been Seattle getting a few favorable calls in crunch time (literally one possession goes differently and this narrative falls apart). Hakeem by any reasonable account, had an incredible all around series despite facing an enormous amount of defensive attention. In 1994, both teams split the season series 2-2 (with Hakeem averaging 28 ppg on 69 FG% and 70 TS% in these games...no, that's not a mistake). The '95 and '96 Rocket teams were different in many ways (not just with roster changes, but how healthy they were in the regular season, in '96 basically every key player missed at least 10 games) and lost every game they faced Seattle in. Then the '97 team was even more different and the Rockets beat them in 7 (as long as we're mentioning results multiple seasons down the line to project what would happen earlier). Seattle did have certain matchup advantages against the Rockets depending on the year, but what here makes people so confident that the Sonics were this sure bet to beat the Rockets in '94? In '93 and '94, the teams kept battling each other to a draw and basically maintained home court. This also ignores the fact that Seattle was perhaps the most unreliable top seeded team ever, constantly losing to teams they were favored against throughout the 90s (them struggling or losing to lower seed teams was not an anomaly, it was a routine).

Secondly, who cares? What does this have to with the inherent qualities of Hakeem's game?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#46 » by Baller2014 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:25 am

EDITED- Voting for Lebron- see explanation on page 14

I went into depth about who I'd be voting for in past threads. It'll be the GOAT offensive player of all-time, Magic Johnson. He has good longevity, more than Bird, and more prime years than a guy like Lebron. His impact on the court is simply bigger than the guys he's up against, except maybe for guys whose lack of longevity kills them (Lebron, Bird, etc). He had a few disappointing upsets (81, 86, 90), but overall he's still too good not to pick here. With time Lebron will pass him, but right now he hasn't IMO, though I'll be open to argument. Take a good look at this video of Magic passing. Nobody, ever, has had court vision like this.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4Dm0lZTqCc[/youtube]

Other things to observe:
1) I notice Pen didn't mention Bird as an imminent pick, but I have little doubt Bird gets in over KG.
2) I feel pretty comfortable saying I will never be voting for Mikan, and that he has no place in the top 500 players, let alone 100.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#47 » by rico381 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:30 am

Jim Naismith wrote:
rico381 wrote: Magic and Bird traded off MVPs, then faded a bit when Jordan came in.


Actually, Bird's last MVP came before Magic's first, so there is no alternation as you imply.

In fact, Bird is the only three-peat MVP winner since the sixties. Neither Jordan nor Magic three-peated.

The only other three-peat MVP winners in NBA history are Wilt and Russell.


Fair enough. There definitely were periods where one of Bird or Magic were clearly the better of the two, although neither of them lasted as long as LeBron's reign. Overall, though, Magic and Bird are still discussed as relative equals for their careers. LeBron's prime has coincided with the peaks of Wade, Durant, Kobe, and Paul, and yet I haven't seen them discussed by credible minds as equals to LeBron, even at their very best.

My point is not so much that LeBron is better because he was perceived as dominating for a longer time than anyone else still out there. It's that LeBron is better for all the skillset and impact-based reasons I've already described, where he just gives you more than Magic, Bird, Hakeem, or anyone else currently under consideration. The fact that he's differentiated himself as a tier above some truly great players is just one way of seeing that greatness.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#48 » by Notanoob » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:36 am

Personally, I don't get Magic's case over LeBron. Bare in mind that I'm essentially judging a playing by his peak play, as I think greatness=bestness for this project.

But really, compare their games.
Both have brutally effective post games. Both being built like PFs at 6'9" and playing on the perimeter allow them to get mismatches easily and destroy people on the block, and pick teams apart if they sent doubles with precise passes.

Both are their team's primary ballhandler and initiate the offense for their team. Magic is certainly more spectacular, but is he significantly more effective? To make a very rough analogy, it's like Nash's whirlwind, madman type stuff vs. Stockton's system-based perfection. Both are excellent passers. Magic has to get the edge here by default, since he actually played point guard as opposed to LBJ, but is the gap huge?

Jump-shooting wise, Magic only was effective from 3 for two years of his career. LBJ has been a good jump-shooter (although his confidence goes sometimes) for 3 straight years now, and was always somewhat effective from three after his rookie season. He actually broke 40% from three, so he's clearly got more range than Magic had.

For me, it gets a big murkier after this very obvious stuff. I know that LBJ is one of the best finishers in the league, making around 75% of his shots around the rim, demolishing teams in transition and blowing by people with his absurd-for-his-size quickness. He has a complete offensive repertoire. However, I don't know as much about Magic. How good was he as a finisher? How was his mid-range game, since I don't have splits handy on BBReference like I do for modern players? Was he as feared a slasher as LBJ was? These are important questions for everyone to know. Despite Magic having a better TS% overall than LBJ (with James having the higher peak), I never got the impression that Magic was a better scorer than LeBron, especially considering the load that he regularly had to carry on his teams compared to Magic.

That said, I'm not sure if it's possible for him to have a good enough advantage on offense to overcome his gap on defense. As was pointed out earlier, Magic was a positive part of Pat's aggressive defensive scheme early in his career, and was not a huge negative defender, but I really don't think that his defense compares to peak LBJ's. When fully engaged, LBJ has proven himself among the handful of elite non-center defensive anchors. His speed, recover, length, strength on the block and shot-blocking combination are almost unique. He legitimately can guard 2-4 for whole games, and can even cover 1 and 5 for stretches. It's simply absurd.

For my vote, I personally want to have a peak to peak comparison, but I know that everyone else will want to see something more broad in scope. I'd like to get more perspective on Magic, specifically compared to LeBron.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#49 » by magicmerl » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:41 am

O_6 wrote:Bird is just so unique in NBA history. I don't even know where to place him.

Actually, I think it's Jordan that is unique in NBA history.

Part of the reason why he gets the accolades he does is that he's just so far ahead of any of the competition at the wing position, and it's so hard to compare him to centers like Kareem and Russell.

Magic and Bird I think you evaluate as perimeter players. They clearly lose out if you are comparing them to an all-time big man.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#50 » by Baller2014 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:46 am

Watch the video. The passing edge is off the planet, and I love Lebron as a passer.

You're putting too much emphasis on the arbitrary balancing of artificial categories like "passing", "scoring", "Defensive power", etc. This isn't pokemon. Even if it was, Pokémon with higher base stats are often worse than Pokémon whose stats are more usefully distributed so they can specialise on certain things. Magic's D wasn't good, and he wasn't a great shooter most of the time, but his point guard skills were so off the planet that his impact ended up being bigger any most of the remaining guys anyway. In fairness, I think peak Lebron takes him fairly clearly, and Bird too, but Lebron and Bird have much less longevity. Lebron only became the Lebron we know today in 09 (though the 08 version was still MVP calibre). While Magic got progressively more awesome as he stayed in the NBA longer, he was still an MVP calibre player in year 1.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#51 » by Baller2014 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:50 am

As for the Kobe talk, the guy is a while away yet. Never mind the fact that his on the court impact wasn't on the same level as these guys, and he's mainly a contender for his (somewhat overstated) longevity, let's take a moment to consider his attitude issues. This post is from a recent thread:
It's basically because Kobe has a pretty horrible record as a team mate, perhaps one of the worst of all-time for any star, and in some ways it's worse than ever. Why? Because in the old days you could rely on Kobe to play like a star at least, but now with the injuries and his age? You're basically stuck in a soap opera about whose team it is, and how Kobe gets to close his career. It wasn't fun, just ask Dwight Howard. I suspect that's why we're seeing so much Kobe twitter activity all of a sudden, taking pot shots at people (like the ridiculous tweet where he claimed the Hornets snubbed him in the draft, when in fact it was the exact opposite way around). I won't focus on Kobe's decisions to force his way to the Lakers, but here are some tidbits from Kobe's career.

Getting into the NBA Kobe had grand dreams about how his career would pan out, and was not shy about telling his team mates how great he would become. This led to obvious tension in the team, most particularly with Shaq:
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2 ... biography/
“It pained me to see how much of a struggle it was for them me,” West writes, “how unwilling Kobe was to defer to Shaq in any way.”

Phil Jackson writes how West first alerted him to the issue when West called him into his office and confided that Kobe had come to talk to Jerry, to ask him for advice. What advice did Kobe want from one of the Laker greats?
Kobe had asked him how he had averaged 30-plus points a game when his team mate, Elgin Baylor, was also scoring 30-plus points per game.

To try and teach Kobe what it meant to be part of a team, Phil arranged an introduction between Kobe and his former student, Michael Jordan, who had to learn to sacrifice for the team. It didn't go the way Phil hoped:
I orchestrated a meeting between the two stars, thinking that Michael might help shift Kobe's attitude toward selfless teamwork. After they shook hands, the first words out of Kobe's mouth were "You know I can kick your ass one on one."

Phil goes on to say how he admired Kobe, but that:
Kobe had yet to reach out to his teammates to try to get to know them. Instead of spending time with them after games, he usually went back to his hotel room
.
Later in Phil's first season he pulled the team together so they could watch some game tape. He pointed out that the triangle couldn't work with selfish play, and opened the floor to the team:
Shaq spoke up... "I think Kobe is playing too selfishly for us to win". That got everyone fired up. Some of the players nodded in support of Shaq, including Rick Fox, who said, "How many times have we been through this?" No one in that room came to Kobe's defense... As Rick Fox put it, "Kobe's me-first attitude was a landmine that was about to explode. We all knew somebody had to step on it, but nobody wanted to. So Phil did it, and we all walk a lot more freely now

Things got so bad that Phil wrote:
One night that week I had a dream about spanking Kobe and giving Shaq a smack.

Even after winning a ring, Kobe's attitude hadn't settled much, in fact Phil worried each year that it got worse:
One player whose agenda wasn't hard to figure out was Kobe Bryant...Kobe was building his resume at the expense of the rest of the team. Early in the season I'd asked him to keep playing the way he had the year before, running the offense through Shaq and sticking with the system until the final minutes of the game, Kobe responded by nearly doubling the number of shots he took each game and adapting an erratic style of passing- or more often, not passing- that infuriated his teammates, especially Shaq. Kobe's selfishness and unpredictability gave the other players a sinking feeling that he didn't trust them anymore, which further eroded team harmony...

The previous year Kobe had embraced the triangle offence. He couldn't wait to test drive the system that had turned Michael and the Bulls into champions. But at the start of this season he told me he thought the offense was boring and too simple, and it prevented him from displaying his gifts. I understood, but I told him we needed to win the most games with the fewest mishaps, including injuries and end of season fatigue. I don't think he bought it... he wasn't interested in becoming Shaq's Pippen. He wanted to create shots for himself....

In his mind he had it all figured out. His goal was to become the greatest basketball player of all time. He was certain he knew what he had to do to get there. Why should he listen to anybody else? If he followed my advice and cut back his scoring, he'd fall short of his ultimate goal. How was I going to get through to this kid?

To try and stop Shaq and Kobe feuding Phil encouraged them to become friends off the court, but:
Kobe balked at the idea of getting too close to Shaq and was appalled by the big guy's attempts to turn him into his "little brother". As Kobe explained, they came from different cultures and had little in common. Shaq was an army brat from the South by way of Newark, New Jersey, and Kobe was the worldly son of a former NBA player from Philly by way of Italy.

Later that season, after Shaq made a (private) trade demand to Buss, Kobe responded by giving a (public) interview to Rich Bucher, where he ripped into Shaq for his free throw shooting, and remarked:
"Turn my game down? I need to turn it up. I've improved. How are you going to bottle me up? I'd be better off playing somewhere else."

Things didn't get easier from there:
During the next few weeks, Shaq and Kobe took their soap opera to absurd extremes. If Kobe noticed Shaq sliding up to one reporter, he'd refuse to talk to him or her, then promise an exclusive to someone else. And if Shaq saw that Kobe was getting his feet taped by one trainer, he'd insist on having his feet taped by another trainer. And so it went...

Brian Shaw, who had played with O'Neal in Orlando, said it reminded him of the clash between Shaq and rising start Penny Hardaway, except that Penny was ok playing Robin to Shaq's Batman, and Kobe wasn't.

Later that season, while discussing the subject with reporter Rick Telander, Phil mentioned that he'd heard a rumour about how Kobe would sabotage his HS team in games early on, so he could help them make a dramatic comeback. When this was published Kobe's mature response was to have his lawyer threaten to sue Phil.

The Lakers won a 3-peat anyway, but it wasn't enough. Rather than win, Kobe was worried about how he was perceived during these wins. He was, in his own words, sick of being Robin.
early signs indicated that Kobe wanted to move to another team where he could be the main man and not have to compete with Shaq for that honor. The team he seemed most interested in was our local rival, the Clippers. Early in the season he had made an awkward attempt to discuss his future with Clippers coach Mike Dunleavy- a violation of NBA rules. To his credit, Mike didn't let the conversation get very far.

This wasn't the last time Kobe would demand a trade in public. As soon as the going got tough in LA he tried to force his way to Chicago.

After another (private) team fight in the 2004 season Kobe responded by going public with Jim Gray, again ripping on Shaq, for being out of shape, and for his "childlike selfishness and jealousy". Charming.

For years Phil had tried to get through to Kobe, but despite 3 titles in 4 years, things just seemed to get worse. Phil wanted Kobe traded
"I can't coach Kobe...He won't listen to anyone. I can't get through to him".

A few days later Phil details how Kobe got him fired:
Dr Buss, who worried that his young star might jump to another team, visited Kobe in Newport Beach... shortly thereafter Kobe told Derek Fisher [about Jackson] "Your man's not coming back next year."... Kobe seemed to be revelling in it.
.
when asked by the media if Phil's departure affected his free agency Kobe told reporters "I don't care". This is while Phil was trying to coach the team to a championship. The 2004 defeat of course was largely Kobe's fault. Rather than pass to Shaq, who was playing outstandingly, Kobe gunned it and shot horribly. The team lost, but Kobe seemed to prefer losing "his way" than winning another title as Shaq's Robin. He wanted to be the finals MVP this time, and taking as many shots as he felt he needed to in order to do that. After the loss Rick Fox summed it up:
"A team always beats a group of individuals... we picked a poor time to be a group of individuals"


Jackson was fired right after, and Shaq was moved to placate Kobe, who signed immediately afterwards. Sure, Magic got his coach fired once too, but at least that turned out to be the right move. Kobe wasn't doing this for the right reasons, indeed he had to swallow his pride and agree for Phil to come back after things fell apart without him. Forcing the team to move Shaq in a rush, so he would agree to re-sign, almost certainly hurt the Lakers in their quest to get fair value back (and indeed, keeping Shaq would have been more sensible).

Kobe had games where he would refuse to shoot to make "a point", often hurting the team as the opposing team reacted accordingly.
During the final week of the season, Kobe, who had never been shy about shooting, took just one shot in the first half of a game against Sacramento, allowing the Kings to take a 19-point lead and win handily. The media concluded that Kobe had intentionally tanked the game to improve his negotiating position with Dr Buss. Kobe said he was just doing what the coaches had asked him to do- share the ball- but nobody bought it. One player, speaking anonymously, told the LA Times... "I don't know how we can forgive him."

This led to an ugly scene at practise the next day. Kobe burst into the training facility in a rage and polled every player, one by one, trying to find out who was responsible for the quote. It was a wrenchingly painful episode.

Nor was this sort of thing confined to minor games. Who could forget game 7 v.s the Suns where Kobe responded to media criticism that he shot to much by refusing to shoot. Seriously?
http://www.travelgolf.com/blogs/chris.b ... out_the_mo

The problem with Kobe's attitude is it has a very real effect on the team's on the court performance.

And who could forget Kobe's horrible leadership in regards to Dwight Howard, who was reportedly hesitant to come to LA in the first place after Kobe's pitch to him was for him to come "be my Tyson Chandler". The two clearly had issues during the season, much of it revolving around Dwight feeling that Kobe was shooting too much. Kobe's pitch for Dwight to stay at his meeting with the Lakers was not much better. After promising to "teach Dwight how to win" Kobe was asked by Dwight:
Was this going to be his last year? "No," replied Kobe. "I'm planning to be around for three of four more years."

At that point, according to others in the room, Dwight's eyes went blank and he drifted away. In his mind the game was over.

Can anyone think of another top 15 player who other star players and coaches reacted thusly to? I sure can't, and it hurts him a lot.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#52 » by ronnymac2 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:01 am

Baller2014 wrote:Even if it was, Pokémon with higher base stats are often worse than Pokémon whose stats are more usefully distributed so they can specialise on certain things.


They can't handle Chansey and Snorlax bro. :D
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#53 » by Jim Naismith » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:02 am

magicmerl wrote:
O_6 wrote:Bird is just so unique in NBA history. I don't even know where to place him.

Magic and Bird I think you evaluate as perimeter players. They clearly lose out if you are comparing them to an all-time big man.


Well, part of Bird's greatness is his versatility. He put up some big-man-type numbers, averaging 10.0 rebounds a game for his career.

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Kevin Garnett 10.31
Karl Malone 10.14
Larry Bird 10.00
Patrick Ewing 9.81
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#54 » by An Unbiased Fan » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:02 am

For JordanBulls, switching HCA out for SRS:

Playoff record when team has SRS advantage:
Kobe 20-1 95.2%
Magic 28-2 93.3%
KG 8-1 88.9%
Lebron 20-3 87.0%
Hakeem 6-1 85.7%
Bird 20-5 80%
Malone 12-3 80%
Dirk 8-3 72.7%


Playoff record when team doesn't have SRS advantage(underdog):
Hakeem 10-8 55.5%
Kobe 8-7 53.3%
Bird 2-2 50%
Magic 4-5 44.4%
Dirk 5-8 38.5%
KG 4-7 36.4%
Lebron 2-4 33.3%
Malone 4-11 26.7%

Does anyone have the typical winning percentage for a team with the better SRS in the playoffs. I think I read it was around 80%. What interesting is that the top stars seem to better the odds of their team in both scenarios.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#55 » by Purch » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:03 am

Purch wrote:Karl Malone needs more traction here

Spoiler:
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His averages for 16 years between 1986-2003

22/10/2
28/12/2
29/11/3
31/11/3
29/12/3
28/11/3
27/11/4
25/12/4
27/11/4
26/10/4
27/10/4
27/10/5
24/9/4

26/10/4
23/8/5
22/9/4
21/8/5


In the 11 straight bolded seasons from 1989-1999 he was all nba 1st team.

If you want to talk about player durability look no further than Karl Malone.

In 17 out of his 19 seasons he played 80 or more games
For comparison Kevin Garnett has only played 80 games 8 out of the 19 years of his career
Not only that but Malone accomplished this whiles playing 2,624 more playoff minutes than Garnett in his career


He's the oldest player in Nba history to win Mvp at age 35.


His longevity in the playoffs is just as impressive

22/8/1
20/10/1
30/12/2
31/16/1
25/10/2
30/13/3
29/11/3
24/10/2
27/12/3
30/13/4
27/10/4
26/11/3
26/10/3
22/11/5
27/9/3
28/9/3
20/8/5
20/7/4

That's an 18 year span in the post season

So if you guys are criticizing Magic and Bird for their durability and longevity, that same focus should be propelling Malone up in these rankings.


Also for you guys who put great value in the "player efficency stat" or "PER"rating, Malone's consistency in that statistic speaks for itself.

For 13 seasons from 1988-2001 Karl Malone was top 5 in "PER" in a league that included extremely efficient players like ; David Robinson, Shaq, Barkley, Ewing, Hakeem and Jordan all in their prime


1988-1989 - #5 In PER (24.4)
1989-1990- #2 In PER (27.2)
1990-1991- #5 In Per (24.8)
1991-1992- #3 in PER (25.4)
1992-1993- #3 in PER (26.2)
1993-1994- #5 in PER (22.9)
1994-1995- #5 In Per (25.1)
1995-1996- #4 in PER (26.0)
1996-1997- #1 in Per (28.9)
1997-1998- #2 in Per (27.9)
1998-1999- #2 in Per (25.6)
1999-2000- #2 in PER (27.1)
2000-2001- #4 In Per (24.7)

That shows ridiculous efficiency over such a long period of time. That very few can match

Also for you guys who seem to value win shares as a legitimate stat.. Malone was consistently elite in that as well


1988-1989 - #5 in Win Shares (15.2)
1989-1990- #4 in Win Shares (15.9)
1990-1991- #3 in Win Shares (15.5)
1991-1992- #2 in Win Shares (15.1)
1992-1993- #3 in Win Shares (15.4)
1993-1994- #4 In Win Shares (13.4)
1994-1995- #4 in Win Shares (13.8)
1995-1996- #3 in Win Shares (15.1)
1996-1997- #2 in Win Shares (16.7)
1997-1998- #1 in Win Shares (16.4)
1998-1999- #1 in Win Shares (9.6)
1999-2000- #2 in Win Shares (15.3)
2000-2001- #5 in Win Shares (13.1)

That again is 13 straight years of being top 5 in the league in Win Shares.

In Offensive win Shares he's 6th all time trailing only Jordan, Oscar, Kareem, Wilt and Stockton.

In Defensive win shares he's a 6th all time (Ahead of Garnett) only trailing Russell, Duncan,Kareem , Hakeem and Wilt

For his career he only trails Wilt Chamberlin and Kareem in total win shares, he's 3rd all time.

So for a 13 year span from age 24-37 Malone was top 5 in PER and WIN Shares every single year, whiles being top 5 in the league in Points per game every single one of those years

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#56 » by An Unbiased Fan » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:06 am

Baller2014 wrote:As for the Kobe talk, the guy is a while away yet. Never mind the fact that his on the court impact wasn't on the same level as these guys, and he's mainly a contender for his (somewhat overstated) longevity, let's take a moment to consider his attitude issues.

How was his on court impact not on the same level?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#57 » by DannyNoonan1221 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:08 am

My vote is for LeBron James as I had him in the #6 spot over Shaq. Before I go into why I am choosing LeBron, I find it extremely interesting that KG is getting votes here over LeBron. Can the KG voters please explain specifically KG vs LeBron for their reasoning?

As I said before, I believe that LeBron has already proved to be above both Bird and Magic. Here is why I am choosing LeBron over either of them. As I spit out stats, LBJ will always come first, Magic 2nd and Bird 3rd.

MVPS- 4 vs 3 vs 3. Bird and Magic are at a disadvantage because it is impossible for both of them to win it in the same year. However, LeBron is still in his peak/arguably still peaking (I think his move to Cleveland is going to give him the best opportunity to truly peak). Relatively a wash but I'm leaning LeBron here.

All Defensive 1st team- All Defensive 2nd team: 5-1, 0-0, 0-3. Not sure why I even included this, everyone knows this.

All NBA 1st- All NBA 2nd: 8-2, 10-1, 9-1. Giving the edge to Magic as of now. Came into a stacked team and was able to replace talent with talent as the decade went on. To stand out enough on a team like the lakers through the 80s with that kind of recognition is impressive. But, I don't think it will be long until LeBron passes him.

WS/48 (Career): .243, .225, .203. LeBron has already played 11 seasons which is only 1 short of Magic (not counting 95) and 2 short of Bird. Advantage LeBron.

While I understand per100, per36 stats, I am not a big supporter of them. Why should we look at a player's per100 stats? We are talking about how these players rank based on what they did on the court during a 48 minute game. I do not agree with the per 100 mindset- a players impact and role is based on what they actually do in 48 minutes. If a coach could give these guys 100 possessions every game and they would actually produce what their per100 stats did that would be nothing short of miraculous. Resting on the bench plays a big part in a players production, both positive (keeping them fresh) and negative (less chances to produce). If people do not agree with this or have questions I can go into more detail but won't for right now.

Per Game Lines (MPG, PTS, RB, AST, STL, BLK, TOV, TS%, PER):

39.5, 27.5, 7.2, 6.9, 1.7, .8, 3.3, .581, 27.8
36.7, 19.5, 7.2, 11.2, 1.9, .4, 3.9, .610, 24.1
38.4, 24.3, 10.0, 6.3, 1.7, .8, 3.1, .564, 23.5

I was actually pretty impressed to see Bird's numbers stacked up against LBJ. But choosing a clear winner on these stats really depends on what you value as a basketball fan. Personally, I give a lot of credit to guys who can be on the court for the most minutes per game; Points are obviously the goal of the game but also a factor of your team, just as rebounding and assists are. Is a +4.3 assists for Magic over LeBron big enough to make up for a +8 ppg edge for LeBron? I think that is a tough question to answer. Basketball is a game of momentum swings- can you handle the other teams run and make a run of your own? When it comes to assists vs points when both relatively equate to the same amount added to the score of the game, I believe the guy who scores 8 consecutive points makes a bigger impact on the game in terms of momentum then the guy who assists on 4 consecutive offensive possessions. On top of that, I am a big fan of PER when comparing offensive stats. If there is a difference between LBJ and Magic, I would lean LeBron.

Is 24-10-6 better than 27-7-7? I don't think so. Rebounds are extremely important, but +3 Reb =/= +3 points in my mind. LBJ and Bird are either tied in every other stat or LeBron is ahead. Edge to LeBron.

I do find it interesting that LeBron's PER is that much higher than Magic's though even though he is -.03 in TS%.

Going into this post, most of the discussion had continued to make the gap LBJ had over Magic bigger and bigger, but after going through a few things it's not as big as I had thought. I was certain LeBron was my next pick and while he still is my pick right now, I am open to changing that before closing the 7th spot depending on the discussion.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#58 » by therealbig3 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:25 am

If you look at Bird and Magic and compare them year by year as to who the better player was:

1980: Bird
1981: Bird
1982: Bird
1983: Bird
1984: Bird
1985: Bird
1986: Bird
1987: Magic
1988: Magic
1989: Magic
1990: Magic
1991: Magic

That's a 7-5 edge for Bird, but Magic's 89-91 stretch occurs at a time when Bird's value is significantly reduced (he was still a very good player in 90 and 91, just not really close to Magic anymore). So it's clearly a good debate, but I don't think these guys were ever considered on par with each other when they actually played outside of maybe 3 seasons (86-88). From 80-85, Bird was the clearly superior player, and from 89-91, Magic was the clearly superior player.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#59 » by Baller2014 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:25 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
Baller2014 wrote:As for the Kobe talk, the guy is a while away yet. Never mind the fact that his on the court impact wasn't on the same level as these guys, and he's mainly a contender for his (somewhat overstated) longevity, let's take a moment to consider his attitude issues.

How was his on court impact not on the same level?


As I've been elaborating on throughout this project, the best way to tell how much a guy can impact a team is often to look at how he does with bad team mates, because it removes all the variables of how much star X did. All the top 10 type guys we're talking about, like Duncan, Bird, Kareem, Lebron, etc, all showed they had an impact so severe that they could carry even weak teams to contention. Kobe never did that. He not only never did that, but he demonstrated pretty conclusively he couldn't do it. From 99-04 the Lakers record when Shaq was hurt, but Kobe played, was 23-26. Shaq led the same support cast you will call "bad" to a 30-10 record over this period (good for a 60 win pace). In 05-07 without Shaq, Kobe's teams were never contenders, winning between 34 and 45 wins. In 05 Kobe's team wasn't that bad, he had an all-star quality player in Odom, a very good player in young Caron Butler, and several decent role players to round out the starting line-up (Mihm, who was a solid role playing big before his injuries, and Atkins, who was a starter on a 50 win team the following season). Nor can you blame the 05 season on Kobe's injuries (they were 28-38 in games Kobe played), or Odom's (because Odom was only rested once the Lakers knew the playoffs was out of sight, and threw the towel in; they had an unbelievably tough schedule leading into the playoffs, mostly against 50 win teams). The 06 and 07 teams were worse, but were they really worse than the sorts of bad teams Duncan had in 02? I doubt it. Odom would easily have been the best non-Duncan player on the 02-03 Spurs teams, maybe even 01 too given D.Rob was only physically able to play 28mpg). In the 2008 season the record without Bynum or Pau was also a mediocre 9-7. Basically Kobe couldn't get anywhere with bad teams. You know who could? The guys he's being compared to.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#60 » by Notanoob » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:26 am

Baller2014 wrote:Watch the video. The passing edge is off the planet, and I love Lebron as a passer.

You're putting too much emphasis on the arbitrary balancing of artificial categories like "passing", "scoring", "Defensive power", etc. This isn't pokemon. Even if it was, Pokémon with higher base stats are often worse than Pokémon whose stats are more usefully distributed so they can specialise on certain things. Magic's D wasn't good, and he wasn't a great shooter most of the time, but his point guard skills were so off the planet that his impact ended up being bigger any most of the remaining guys anyway. In fairness, I think peak Lebron takes him fairly clearly, and Bird too, but Lebron and Bird have much less longevity. Lebron only became the Lebron we know today in 09 (though the 08 version was still MVP calibre). While Magic got progressively more awesome as he stayed in the NBA longer, he was still an MVP calibre player in year 1.
I despise the way you keep bringing up Pokemon when guys break down a player's game. I realize that it's your go-to analogy, but it feels belittling. I'm trying to get a better idea of how they compare are players. It's not like if LeBron wins more categories he wins overall. I'm not being nearly that simplistic.

And honestly, it's a bit odd to hear that from you when you were so against the use of the best available total impact stats that don't break things down in this way (unlike box score stats)- various forms of RAPM. Not hypocritical, mind you, because you have reasons for disliking the stat. But I'd expect someone with the attitude that you can't just try to break a guy's game into pieces but look should look at his total impact to naturally gravitate towards RAPM. In any event, let's please not actually rehash the debate that's already taken place about RAPM in a previous thread here, I'd rather not derail the thread.


If the basic thrust of the argument is that Magic's passing was simply so far ahead of LeBron's that it covers up his inferiority everywhere else, I have a hard time believing that considering how good of a passer LeBron is.

To really make an informed decision, I'm going to have to learn more about Magic's offensive game outside of passing. He managed to have a career TS% of 61%, and I want to hear more about how he did it. Was it just that he could post up comparatively-tiny point guards? Was his slashing really good? Could he hit short jumpers?

And, like I said, for the purpose of my vote I only care about peak play, but the rest of the board will want to hear about more of his career than that.

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