RealGM Top 100 List #14

[Baller2014]

People need to go back and look at the video I posted of Karl Malone's D. He was a great post defender, a physical and effective man defender, and a brutal thugforcer. He had a huge defensive impact, as much as you can realistically have without being either a) an inside anchor, or b) a freak like KG or Dennis Rodman.

With all his longevity and awesomeness, posting a peak that is right up there with the remaining candidates, and a prime that beats them all, I think the only candidate getting oxygen aside from Karl Malone is Dr J. Guys like Jerry West should be discussed in the next tier of candidates, like D.Rob, Moses, Barkley and Dirk. Dr J has West for peak to peak play, and he kills him on longevity too, leaving West with basically no advantage over him whatever.

[ThaRegul8r]

West did lead the Los Angeles Lakers to their first title.

Mikan had already led the Lakers franchise to a handful of titles before West got there.

So does that mean you think a player is greater if he led the Clippers to a title, but not the Hawks or the Kings since the franchises won in the 50s in St Louis and Rochester?

Frankly, I have no patience for posts like these. None. I wonder if people on the internet actually take the time to read anything before posting. For had you continued to read a mere four posts down from the post you quoted, you would have seen this post:

Mikan had already led the Lakers franchise to a handful of titles before West got there.

Colts focused on the bolded, Mikan led the Minneapolis Lakers. Same franchise, different cities.

Anyone who's been here for any length of time should know the reason for my reply to the initial post:

In what way is Wade better than West?

He led a team that never won anything before to a title.

Duh.

The Heat had never won anything before Wade led them to a title in 2006, while the Lakers had already won five times before 1972. I'll point out that that isn't my criteria (which I've posted on several occasions, and that's nowhere on it), but that of the poster to whom penbeast0 posed his question.

Bolded and underlined for those who may be slow on the uptake. You had time to read it (with it being only four posts below the one you quoted), and thus could have quickly deleted your post and saved the embarrassment. But apparently you stopped at that post without reading further. You've only been here since February, so you don't know why I replied as I did to the initial post. You were so eager to show me up that you didn't bother to read that that isn't even my criteria, so, no, I don't "think a player is greater if he led the Clippers to a title, but not the Hawks or the Kings since the franchises won in the 50s in St Louis and Rochester."

And yet people will get their feelings hurt and attempt to rationalize it away while sending an ad hominem my way when I say that was a stupid question seeing how the answer to that question was already there for all to see, eliminating the need to even ask it.

[Doctor MJ]

Well i think Peak wise Wade gets the edge, i would say West had the better career though. More quality seasons.

So here's the thing I've been thinking about recently with Wade:

His entire prime as an alpha took place on meh team offenses. Even in the title year of '06 where he went nuclear, he didn't make his team's offense unstoppable, he just kept them afloat while the team won with defense. (Miami beat Dallas with a 101 ORtg in the series, where in the previous round a very injured Phoenix team put 111 ORtg on Dallas, and the Spurs went for 110.)

You act as if Wade had a lot of good offensive players around him in his prime...that 06 title team had Shaq and Antonie Walker as their 2nd and 3rd leading scorers, and when the finals rolled around he completely carried them on the offensive end their 2nd leading scorer wasn't even getting 15 ppg. The ghosts of Payton and Alonzo along with Posey and and a past prime Shaq and Walker isn't a good offensive cast. Then the years between Shaq and Lebron he was playing with scrubs, what was he supposed to do have a top 5 offense with Beasley and Haslem?

The fact that you even put Iverson and Thomas in Wade's class is just ridiculous. Who cares if Wade won on a title team that was more defensive than offensive, it's defense that ultimately wins championships and Wade obviously helped on that end he wasn't average or a negative on defense.

I'm not at all advocating Wade for this spot, but i feel your assessment is disrespect and really underrating him and his abilities. Nobody's claiming him to be Nash or LBJ on offense.

Well look I don't mean to disrespect him. I like him. However I've had this thought recently and it came to mind in response to the posts I've quoted.

[RSCD3_]

My vote is for Moses Malone.


- My caveat about offensive rebounds: Basketball (and sports in general) is a game of momentum swings. back and forth, back and forth. Winning a game often comes down to controlling another team’s run and being able to stop their momentum while creating your own. Outside of a few different things (highlight-reel scoring plays/dunks), I don’t think there is one single play that can be recorded in a box score that has a bigger impact on momentum than offensive rebounding. I have brought this up before- not only are you giving your team another 24 seconds (most of the time), but you are chipping away at the will of the defensive team.

2014 Spurs 26th in O-Rebounds
2013 Heat 28th
2012 Heat 24th
2011 Mavs 28th

It's really not important at all in terms of winning games. It's much more valuable for your bigs to get back on defense where they can have a pronounced impact on the game rather than the relatively low percentage play of chasing offensive rebounds.

You are actually making a great case for Dirk here in place of Moses because Dirk was a terrific defensive rebounder which is more valuable and he always got back on defense which is a large part of a guy who to the eye test isn't as impressively defensively as some other guys always rates well in +/- and RAPM.

I think era differences might have made offensive rebounding more valuable on his time period than now?

Would that affect his portability?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Doctor MJ]

I'll refrain from voting at this point, but I'll give my thoughts at the moment:

Jerry West is the guy I'm sort of in love with. Right now. To me he seems like a guy on the low end of the top tier of offensive GOAT contenders and so far as I can tell a legit defensive force. I have him ahead of Oscar on my list. I find him most impressive...but there is a longevity issue to consider, particularly relative to...

Karl Malone. I really don't know if I can put West over Malone.

I put up a section in my notes comparing West to (Karl) Malone (mainly for my own clarity since I've never bothered making a list before), and, though different people value different things, based on my criteria, I just don't see Malone over West. West routinely faced the greatest defensive team of his era and the GOAT defensive dynasty, was guarded by K.C. Jones, who in turn was backed up by the GOAT defender, and regularly came up big. As I've said before, if people give Malone a pass for having to go against Jordan, West ran up against Russell a whole lot more often than Malone did against Jordan. And Russell denied a whole lot more players titles than Jordan did. But the important thing is that West actually played well enough to merit a championship:

8. The only thing of relevance is how a player helps his team win, which means the player in question’s performance will be evaluated. If that player has a poor performance and another player picks up the slack to help his team win, then that player receives no bonus for his teammate bailing him out. Conversely, just as a doctor can try to the best of his ability to help keep a patient alive but fail, so can a player try to the best of his ability to help his team win but ultimately fail. His individual performance will be assessed, and if he didn’t help his team lose, he will incur no penalty. However, if he was instrumental in his own team’s defeat, he will be penalized accordingly.

Looking at my criteria, the only one Malone has an advantage on would be this:

11. A player does not cease to help his team win after passing his peak/prime. He may not be able to make as large a contribution as he formerly did due to age, but continuing to contribute to team wins to the extent one is able is still valuable to the team he plays for and helps the team obtain the ultimate objective. A player’s career consists of more than just his peak, as he won’t be at his peak for his entire career. Only seasons in which a player helped his team win will be considered in the overall evaluation.

But Malone's longevity doesn't put him over the edge if his play wasn't enough to help his team win, while West's was. West's performance is a plus over Malone. And criterion #10:

10. The object of the game is to help your team win. In lieu of actually achieving that objective, helping your team get as close to it as possible. Helping your team get to the semifinals > losing in the opening round; helping your team get to the conference finals > losing in the semifinals; helping your team get to the Finals > losing in the conference finals. Getting closer to the ultimate goal of winning is always a positive. Finishing farther away from it is always a negative. Helping your team get to the Finals but losing is always better than losing in an earlier round.

West continually leading his team to the Finals only to lose to Russell is a plus. Russell's the GOAT for some, and was simply a better player than West. There is no shame in losing to a better player so far as your own performance is up to par (losing to a better player isn't an excuse if your own performance was subpar). Malone wasn't leading his team to the Finals against Jordan every year. And that first time, it was Stockton who put them there, not Malone.

As usual I mostly found myself nodding along as I read your post, except:

The notion that a player gets a longevity boost because he played on a team that won a title doesn't make sense to me. To the extent West was a bigger factor than the analogous aging Malone I'm with you, but clearly West was lucky in his cast at that point just as he was unlucky at times earlier.

Still though, I am leaning West right now.

[Doctor MJ]

What I'm saying is that Wade actually hasn't directly shown us that much. He's shown us that he can will a team's offense from bad to mediocre, which is great, but it's not the same as leading stellar team offense, and I find myself wondering if he's a guy more ideally suited to the former than the latter. This is not simply due to the fact he hasn't shown it, but also due to the fact that this is something we tend to see from volume scorers.

It's extremely hypocritical of you to tout KG carrying his teams to mediocre defenses and explaining it by mentioning RAPM, yet you won't do the same. Wade's 2010 season was actually the 2nd highest offensive RAPM in history (higher than any LeBron season). Wade has 4 of the top 26 offensive RAPM seasons.


Year Rank Name Offense per 100
2007 1 Steve Nash 7.9
2010 2 Dwyane Wade 7.6
2007 3 Baron Davis 7.5
2008 4 Steve Nash 7.4
2010 5 LeBron James 7.1
2007 6 LeBron James 7.1
2009 7 LeBron James 6.6
2007 8 Manu Ginobili 6.5
2010 9 Steve Nash 6.3
2007 10 Tim Duncan 6.3
2011 11 Steve Nash 6.2
2009 12 Steve Nash 6.2
2007 13 Chauncey Billups 6.1
2007 14 Dwyane Wade 6.1
2007 15 Carlos Boozer 6
2007 16 Dirk Nowitzki 6
2007 17 Jason Richardson 6
2007 18 Kobe Bryant 6
2007 19 Antawn Jamison 5.9
2006 20 Kobe Bryant 5.9
2009 21 Kobe Bryant 5.8
2001 NPI 22 Shaquille O'Neal 5.8
2009 23 Dwyane Wade 5.7
2008 24 Kobe Bryant 5.7
2011 25 Dirk Nowitzki 5.6
2011 26 Dwyane Wade 5.5


4 out of the top 26 and 7 out of the top 44 seasons.

Extremely hypocritical of me? Sigh.

I feel like I continually get in this cycle. People say "You base everything off of +/- stat!", and when I say well, no I don't actually they don't seem to believe me.

And then I say something as part of an argument that basically proves that, as I said before, I don't go simply by +/- stats, they call me a hypocrite for deviating from the oversimplistic methodology that I always made clear did not describe my process.

I'll clarify by expounding on the differences between the KG thing and the Wade thing.

In the KG thing I said that it was wrong to say that weak team defense proved KG was a particularly limited defender because 1) we know roughly what defenders can do for a team and it's not enough to clinch elite team defense, and 2) we have KG's +/- data and it tells us he was having huge imapct.

However, as I said at the time, were this the only evidence we had about KG, question marks would still remain. What really sealed the deal and basically answered all the attacks on KG that still remain the most common attacks on him to this day, was him going to Boston and showing huge impact on elite defense and team.

As a result KG has proven he can have huge impact on very different teams of varying quality with him taking on two very different roles.

Now, just as KG in Minny proved he could lift like crazy with a weaker supporting cast, so did Wade in Miami. That is proof that Wade is a phenomenal player, but that does not mean he has proven all he could ever possibly be asked to prove when in the conversation of GOATs.

I have no proven that he couldn't do it, and I'm not claiming I have. I'm just pointing out there's something pretty big that I think people tend to just assume here, that he never actually showed, and it's no small thing. And since it's being brought up Wade vs someone like West, it's worth pointing out that false assumption to people.

Re: RAPM list. I'm fine with you bringing this up. People should know it. Wade had huge impact on offenses, and that's a real thing, but for example, that #2 on the list, the '10 Wade? That happened on a below average offense. It stands reasonable to ask whether the unipolar Wade offense could really be expected to scale into elite range.

[ThaRegul8r]

As usual I mostly found myself nodding along as I read your post, except:

The notion that a player gets a longevity boost because he played on a team that won a title doesn't make sense to me. To the extent West was a bigger factor than the analogous aging Malone I'm with you, but clearly West was lucky in his cast at that point just as he was unlucky at times earlier.

Still though, I am leaning West right now.

It isn't a longevity boost for simply playing on a team that won a title. After reading some posts on longevity, it made me consider how highly I value it, and I decided to incorporate my thoughts on the matter into my criteria, though I'm open to revising it if I haven't made it clear. I don't receive feedback for much of what I write, so I don't know how clearly I've articulated it for someone other than myself or how well I've conveyed what I intended.

I care about how much a player helps his team win from draft day to retirement. If a player continues to help his team win even after his prime/peak, then that's a positive. Just hanging on is not, because I care about a player's performance towards a title, not simply the title itself. Hence criteron #7:

7. Rings are only relevant so far as the player’s contribution to his team winning the title that year. Mitch Richmond won an NBA championship as a member of the Los Angeles Lakers in 2002, but played all of four minutes that postseason. Thus, the ring that he won is as irrelevant as he was to the Lakers that year. He gets no boost against a ringless player. Neither does a player who bandwagons his way to a ring.

Malone has longevity over West, but seeing as how Malone's performances toward helping his team win < West's, I don't see how his longevity would give him the edge overall, at least for me. For example, Kareem has longevity and won six titles, but even in seasons he didn't actually win, he had performances like the '74 Finals and '77. Performances like that increase the chances of his team winning even if they didn't actually win those years. West's performances gave his teams more of a chance to win than Malone's did, he just had the misfortune of continually running into the GOAT dynasty in all of professional sports. There was nothing about his performance that hindered his team from winning those years. The same can't be said for Malone, who's actually been complicit in his team not winning.

As far as West being lucky when he won, as you know, West actually had his worst postseason the year he finally won. So that doesn't boost him any more for me than if he hadn't won that year. His yearly postseason performance is what ranks him highly for me. To restate criterion #8:

8. The only thing of relevance is how a player helps his team win, which means the player in question’s performance will be evaluated. If that player has a poor performance and another player picks up the slack to help his team win, then that player receives no bonus for his teammate bailing him out. Conversely, just as a doctor can try to the best of his ability to help keep a patient alive but fail, so can a player try to the best of his ability to help his team win but ultimately fail. His individual performance will be assessed, and if he didn’t help his team lose, he will incur no penalty. However, if he was instrumental in his own team’s defeat, he will be penalized accordingly.

West suffers no penalty for not actually winning during his exceptional performances, and doesn't get a boost for winning during his worst performance. In any other era than the one he played, his play would have earned him multiple titles. Playing to the best of your ability but ultimately losing to a team led by a better player doesn't lower a player's evaluation as far as I'm concerned.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Spoiler:

[...]

Regarding West defensively.
I am thinking that West was one of the greatest help defenders ever at the guard position.
He had underrated athletic ability combined with ultra long arms and amazing timing.

Even at age 35 while only playing 30mpg he averaged nearly 3spg/1bpg.
He was probably a lock for 3+spg / 1+bpg in his actual Prime.

I think Jerry is clearly the best candidate for this spot.
He was a better scorer and playmaker then Erving and while I am high on Erving's defensive ability West was no pushover on that end.

“What people don’t realize is that Jerry was one of the greatest defensive guards ever,” Red Auerbach said (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales: The Glory Years of the NBA, in the Words of the Men Who Played, Coached, and Built Pro Basketball, p. 191). The NBA All-Defensive Teams didn’t exist until West’s ninth season in the league, but in the six years that he played, he was a four-time First Team selection (1970-73) and one-time Second Team selection (1969).

“His offense is so great that people sometimes overlook the other things he does for his team,” Wilt Chamberlain said of West. “By his mere presence he creates so many mismatches. He has such quick hands that he is always a threat to steal the ball. I don’t think Jerry is as great on one-on-one. You know where he has to guard a guy one-on-one. Like maybe Howard Komives. But what Jerry is able to do is play his man tough enough and then when the man passes off, he’s able to anticipate the pass and steal the ball as quick as anyone in the league. He’s just a good all-around basketball player and I don’t think there’s anyone better” (Williamson Daily News, Jan 6, 1971).

“I wish they had kept track of steals when Jerry and I played because we would have been the league leaders,” Lenny Wilkens said. “He had hands that were as quick as a snake’s tongue” (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales, p. 191). Steals weren’t kept until the 1973-74 season—West’s last in the league, but in the first year they were recorded, West had 10 steals in a game Dec. 7, 1973 in a 115-111 loss to Seattle to set a single-game record. Feb. 3, 1974, West had 19 points, 14 rebounds, 10 assists and seven steals in a 124-91 win over Portland. In the 1973-74 season, West had 81 steals in 31 games (2.62 spg), in 967 minutes at 35 years old. His steal percentage was 3.6, and his block percentage 1.1.

In Game 3 of the 1962 NBA Finals against the Boston Celtics, West stole Sam Jones’ in-bounds pass to Bob Cousy at midcourt with three seconds left and scored on a layup to give the Lakers a 117-115 win. In Game 2 of the 1963 Western Division Finals against the St. Louis Hawks, West “stole a Hawk pass in the dying seconds […], dribbled into scoring range and swished the ball for the deciding basket” (Gettysburg Times, Apr 2 1963) for a 101-99 win. Jan. 17, 1968, West had seven rebounds, 10 assists and 12 steals. Nov. 9, 1968, West had 29 points and nine steals as the Lakers beat the Celtics 116-106 for their ninth straight victory. Dec. 6, 1968, West had eight steals in a 99-94 win over Atlanta. In Game 6 of the 1970 Western Division Semifinals against the Phoenix Suns, West scored a game-high 35 points “and was credited with an unofficial 12 steals defensively” (Ocala Star Banner, Apr 8, 1970) in a 104-93 Laker win which tied the series at 3-3 after being down 3-1. Nov. 11, 1970, West had 26 points, 11 assists and nine steals in a 149-124 win over Seattle. Dec. 13, 1971, West had 23 points, 15 assists and seven steals in a 129-114 win over Portland for the Lakers’ 22nd consecutive win. In the 1972 All Star Game, West had 13 points on 6-for-9 shooting—seven in the fourth quarter, six rebounds, five assists and six steals in 27 minutes and hit the game-winning 21-footer over Walt Frazier for a 112-110 West win. Jan. 23, 1972, West “scored 37 points, made at least nine steals, hit 15 of 26 shots, passed off for 13 assists and generated sparks in a sizzling fast break” in a 118-105 win over Milwaukee. Nov. 11, 1972, West had 27 points, 10 assists and 10 steals in only three quarters in a 118-88 win over Cleveland.

Jerry West Nips Hawks In Clutch

ATLANTA (AP) — “They don’t call Jerry West ‘Mister Clutch’ for nothing,” said Los Angeles Coach Bill Sharman after the veteran guard sparked the Lakers to a last-minute 102-100 National Basketball Association victory over the Atlanta Hawks.

A steal by West from the Hawks’ Pete Maravich in the closing minutes, sealed the Lakers’ victory Sunday afternoon before a crowd of 8,478 at the Omni and a national television audience.

West, incidentally, led the Lakers with 37 points. Maravich had 28 for the Hawks.

“People keep saying he’s going to slow down,” Sharman said of West. “But he doesn’t. That steal from Maravich decided the game.”

Until that point, the Hawks only trailed by a point at 95-94. Then West went into his act and the Lakers had a 99-94 edge and eventually the game.

“In close games, West seems to take over,” said Sharman of his 34-year-old backcourt ace.
(Waycross Journal-Herald, Jan 15, 1973.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HQ ... 56092&#41;

Mar. 2, 1973, Lakers’ coach Bill Sharman said, “Jerry West is the greatest defensive guard who’s ever played in the NBA” after West had 19 points, eight assists and nine steals in 33 minutes after coming back from a 10-game injury hiatus to lead the Lakers to a 108-88 win over Chicago. Mar. 25, 1973, West had six steals in the third quarter and blocked a shot by Spencer Haywood as the Lakers went from a 47-43 halftime lead to a 79-63 lead after three, in a 109-93 win over Seattle. Seattle coach Bucky Buckwaiter said, “when Jerry West dies, they ought to cut off his hands and bronze them.”

Although they didn’t keep track of the stats as they do today, I would say that Jerry West blocked more shots and had more steals than any guard who ever played in the NBA. He had those long arms and great quickness that was very deceptive until he stole the ball from you a few times. […] He is one of the very few players that was a true superstar on offense and defense. There are only a couple of other players in the history of the league that you can say that about at both ends of the court. Many are superstars at one end, but not both.

“West’s size is deceiving,” wrote Phil Elderkin. “While he is only 6ft. 3in. and 185 pounds, his arm span from fingertip to fingertip is 81 inches. He has the reach of a man 6-7 or 6-8.” “Red used to say that you don’t judge a player by only his height, you need to consider the length of his arms,” John Havlicek said. “Jerry had something like a 39-inch sleeve. He was 6-foot-2, but he had the arms of a man 6-foot-7. That made him so tough when he guarded you. He could use those long arms to poke away your dribble, I mean really pick your pocket” (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales, p. 191).

“Coach John Kerr of the Bulls proved he knows whereof he speaks before last night’s game when he was asked for an opinion on West’s switch to guard Robinson. ‘He is the best defensive guard in the league,’ Kerr said” (Robert Logan, “Lakers Deals Bulls 3D Playoff Loss: West Stops Robinson in 93-87 Victory.” Chicago Tribune, Mar 30, 1968). In an ESPN SportsNation Chat with Sam Jones, Jones said: “I think the best player that I had play defense against me was Jerry West. He had long arms and you knew he was going to have a lot of points. When you played against him, you had to bring it offensively and defensively.”

“Jerry was so methodical,” John Vanak said. “He wore you out with his jump shot, his relentless defense, and unlike a lot of guards, he had enough guts to go under the basket for rebounds” (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales, p. 191).

Great post. Some of the most informative stuff I've read on West's defense. Makes me much more comfortable with my vote for him in this thread.

[JeepCSC]

I'm still trying to follow. Wade carried the load on a good (not mediocre) team offense in 2006. Wade was arguably the best offensive player on an elite team offense in 2011. He had stellar individual seasons in-between. He moved over to allow prime Lebron more control on a couple more elite team offenses. What else are you looking for him to prove on this front? Longevity, and perhaps limits to his skill set, would be where I'd attack Wade. Not whatever this is.

Edit: And the 2006 Heat are now defensive wunderkinds to be mentioned like the Bad Boys or the 76ers? I feel like I missed something huge here.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm still trying to follow. Wade carried the load on a good (not mediocre) team offense in 2006. Wade was arguably the best offensive player on an elite team offense in 2011. He had stellar individual seasons in-between. He moved over to allow prime Lebron more control on a couple more elite team offenses. What else are you looking for him to prove on this front? Longevity, and perhaps limits to his skill set, would be where I'd attack Wade. Not whatever this is.

You've got a point.

The '06 offense was in the Top 10. That makes it basically by definition "good", and that certainly takes the sting out of what I said.

What I'm fixated on right now is that my perception previously was off. I looked at his '06 finals and his '09 & '10 years and saw something of an unstoppable machine. In reality in all those circumstances the opposing defense was doing basically fine in the face of the Wade-based attack. There's no doubt they do much more than fine if Wade disappeared, but still when we talk about huge performances tied to results that completely tolerable to opponents, the question needs to be asked: How sure are we this good be done similarly with elite efficacy?

Re: 2011. To be clear what I"m saying is not whether it's a question that Wade could be on an elite offense, but whether he could drive one himself. That he sacrificed primacy for the good of his team is great, but merely matching the team ORtg that LeBron had back when Mo Williams was his sidekick isn't anything to brag about.

Re: 2011 finals. Well Wade there was undoubtedly awesome. I don't want to dismiss that, it was beautiful, but aside from the fact Wade can't reliably do that, much of the extra impact he had there came on the defensive end. Wade's not normally the best defensive player on the court, and he's really not very close. For the first games of the 2011 finals, he totally was.

[JeepCSC]

But 2011 Wade wasn't just matching Mo Williams, he also had to match whatever Lebron was leaving behind in Cleveland. Which seemed to be a bit.

[Samurai]

I'm leaning towards voting for Dr J over Jerry West since I think he had the best peak of all the remaining candidates and I'm very impressed with his GOAT level 76 playoffs.

Peak

Peak (74-76) RS Per 100: 32.4 PTS, 12.5 TRB, 6.0 AST, 2.7 STL, 2.4 BLK, 4.3 TOV
Peak (74-76) RS: 26.8 PER, .565 TS%, .341 FTr, 113 ORtg, 96 DRtg, .247 WS/48

Peak (74-76) PS Per 100: 34.2 PTS, 12.2 TRB, 5.6 AST, 1.8 STL, 1.9 BLK, 3.8 TOV
Peak (74-76) PS: 26.7 PER, .577 TS%, .379 FTr, 118 ORtg, 100 DRtg, .253 WS/48

GOAT level 76 Playoffs

Carries Nets to ABA title averaging 37.4 PTS/13.6 TRB/5.3 AST/2.1 STL/2.2 BLK per 100 on .610 TS%

32.0 PER, .610 TS%, .527 FTr, 128 ORtg, 103 DRtg, .321 WS/48

I'm not really concerned about Dr J peaking in the ABA since it seems to have been comparable to the NBA from 74-76. Dr J's Nets won the 76 ABA Title against the Denver Nuggets who were one of the best NBA teams (4.95 SRS, 2nd) the following season.

I've said before the Dr. J is one of my all-time favorites. For sheer enjoyment, it was more fun to watch prime Dr. J play than it was for me to watch West or Oscar. But if I were thinking of this with my head instead of my heart, there is no way I could select Dr. J over West.

The difference on defense is significant to me. Dr. J, in my view, was a very good but not an elite defender. He was spectacular, and his steals and blocks would have been a staple of ESPN's top ten plays if there had been an ESPN then. But Bobby Jones was the better defender and would take on the more challenging defensive assignment. West was a GOAT-level guard on defense, a much better man-to-man defender than the Doc and better help defender. Offensively Doc was a better penetrator and was a GOAT-level wingman on the fastbreak. But West's superiority in both midrange and longrange shooting was significant. With his passing advantage, I couldn't take Dr J over West on offense either.

If I had my choice of going to a game and see prime Dr J or prime West, I'd plunk my money down for a ticket to see the Doctor every time. But if I were starting a team, I'd have to take West.

[GSP]

Theres literally no evidence (game footage or statistically) to suggest that Jerry West is on the same plane as DrJ on defense. From the small bit of film we do have Jerrys defense really seems overrated to me. The defensive praise he got and transferred doesnt seem unlike Kobes reputation. In a few decades ppl will think of Kobe as this elite perimeter defensive course career wise when that isnt the case. DrJ seems alot more impressive, better in transition, more disruptive as a whole, way better defensive rebounder, more versatile, could protect the paint in some plays off help Ive seen ala a Wade. There are plays Ive seen where DrJ flatout has to cover an entire defensive possession for Moses since he was so slow on rotating. Jerry might be a better man defender but his overall defense isnt close. Just b/c he had a better perimeter defender on his team in Bobby doesnt mean he was great that Philly team really relied on a cultured defense specially in their later days. Its like saying Mj wasnt a great defender b/c he had another player to take tougher defensive assignments and was better defender in Pippen. Obviously Mj had bigger role for offense like DrJ has much bigger role compared to Bobby.

[ardee]

Vote: Jerry West

A guy, who I think was ahead of his time.

Out of all the 60s players, there's no one I'm sure would translate better than West, even Wilt. His game looks like something you'd use as an instructional video for kids. He could shoot. Period. He just went further and further back, but as soon as he pulled up, you knew you were ****. Perfect dribbling. And I think his passing was underrated, averaged 8 apg over his last 7 seasons. He was effectively playing the unipolar Wade/Cleveland LeBron role, but on elite offenses.

1968 is the best example. It really takes a special player to be the keynote of a +8 offense at the time. He picked his spots perfectly, always made the correct pass, he had efficient offensive basketball down to a science. In a way it's a little reminiscent of Stockton with efficient volume scoring. Always make the correct decision, no fuss, no flair, just get the job done. He's like the Tim Duncan of SGs to me.

And then, not to say he couldn't go absolutely nuclear and sieze a game by the scruff of its neck if he needed to. People don't talk about his 1965 Playoffs enough... As soon as Baylor got injured, he averaged 46.3 ppg against Baltimore in the series, depending on Rudy LaRusso and Dick Barnett for support. He had 40+ in 8 of 11 games that Playoffs.

I just don't think the guy gets enough credit overall. He belongs more in the Kobe/Bird/Hakeem tier than in the Oscar/Dirk/KG one. On my next list he'll probably supplant Hakeem at no. 11 on my list.

Just a bad, bad man. Always brought it in the Playoffs, did everything on offense for elite Laker teams, spearheaded one of the GOAT teams in 1972, underrated defender... Yeah, I think 11 would be a good spot for him on my list.

[Baller2014]

I don't think West has a case here over Dr J or Karl Malone. Or rather, I can see what that case is, but if that case is true then it logically follows he should have gone ahead of Kobe and KG too. I didn't see too many lists which had West above both those guys, so I'm kind of at a loss as to why he should go here.

Dr J peaked above West and has more longevity. Depending on the narrative we use, you could try for an argument that West peaked above Karl Malone, but if he did I don't see how it's by enough to offset Karl Malone's ridiculous longevity advantage... and if peak is all you care about, you should be voting for Dr J, Barkley or D.Rob. I don't see it at all.

[ThaRegul8r]

I don't think West has a case here over Dr J or Karl Malone.

Putting aside West for the moment, what's Malone's case over Dr. J? Your "Dr. J vs. Malone" post was actually preoccupied with Kobe, and didn't actually compare Erving and Malone (go figure). Dr J peaked higher, brought his team closer to the ultimate goal of winning than Malone did (succeeding three more times than Malone did), performed better in the Finals when he got his teams there, and showed he could help his teams win as a first option or a second option. Longevity in and of itself doesn't bring an advantage if you don't do as much to help your team win.

[Warspite]

Theres literally no evidence (game footage or statistically) to suggest that Jerry West is on the same plane as DrJ on defense. From the small bit of film we do have Jerrys defense really seems overrated to me. The defensive praise he got and transferred doesnt seem unlike Kobes reputation. In a few decades ppl will think of Kobe as this elite perimeter defensive course career wise when that isnt the case. DrJ seems alot more impressive, better in transition, more disruptive as a whole, way better defensive rebounder, more versatile, could protect the paint in some plays off help Ive seen ala a Wade. There are plays Ive seen where DrJ flatout has to cover an entire defensive possession for Moses since he was so slow on rotating. Jerry might be a better man defender but his overall defense isnt close. Just b/c he had a better perimeter defender on his team in Bobby doesnt mean he was great that Philly team really relied on a cultured defense specially in their later days. Its like saying Mj wasnt a great defender b/c he had another player to take tougher defensive assignments and was better defender in Pippen. Obviously Mj had bigger role for offense like DrJ has much bigger role compared to Bobby.

I am a West fan but it is true in that West gets to guard Costello, Rogers, Cousy/KC and Wilkins for half of his games played and none of them can score (Well Lenny did but he is a 41% FG) Wilt has said that West blocked more shots than anyone outside Russell and himself and I can believe it guarding set shot shooters for most of his career.

On a side note playing for LA in the Western division with St Louis, Oakland, Detroit and Baltimore?? is some frequent travel miles. Looking at the schedule the Lakers would play at home like MLB. They would have a 2 game series every time an east coast team arrived. Yet those road trips were brutal. In 1965 for example the Lakers played home games in Vegas, Minn, Memphis, Indiana and In Jerry Wests home town of Charleston WV.

[Baller2014]

I don't think West has a case here over Dr J or Karl Malone.

Putting aside West for the moment, what's Malone's case over Dr. J? Your "Dr. J vs. Malone" post was actually preoccupied with Kobe, and didn't actually compare Erving and Malone (go figure). Dr J peaked higher, brought his team closer to the ultimate goal of winning than Malone did (succeeding three more times than Malone did), performed better in the Finals when he got his teams there, and showed he could help his teams win as a first option or a second option. Longevity in and of itself doesn't bring an advantage if you don't do as much to help your team win.

Good question. Dr J peaked higher than Karl Malone, but I feel Malone's peak is being slept on a lot. It's lower, but not that much lower. Combine that with his insane longevity and consistency, and I think Malone edges Dr J out on this (though it's horrendously close). I just think Malone's career impact is greater (and more likely to let you build title teams overall), albeit by a miniscule margin. They're both certainly more impactful than West.

[Quotatious]

I'm leaning towards West here (yeah, Notanoob convinced me to put Jerry over Dirk, in the last thread), then Dirk, Dr. J and Karl (which is a pretty big change, as before the project I didn't see putting Malone over Doc, Dirk or West as a possibility - his playoff career just seemed way inferior to these three guys). I still value West's terrific playoff career more than Karl's longevity, so I'll probably go with the Logo, but it's not a sure thing yet. I mean - longevity is quite important, and Malone has an obvious edge over West in this regard, but it's certainly just one part of of an argument - if longevity was everything, then I guess Kareem should definitely be ranked over Jordan and Russell (well, he's eventually been voted over Russ, but not really because of longevity, or at least it definitely wasn't the primary factor).

[ardee]

After West, I have Dirk, then Doc, then Robinson, then Barkley. The Malones will be after that.