Andrew Wiggins vs. Giannis Antetokounmpo

[etopn23]

This thread is going to look (Please Use More Appropriate Word) in 3 years. I dunno when people started trashing Wiggins. He is raw, he will develop. Everything he has said shows that he *will* work to become a better player.

Giannis is not near the prospect that Wiggins is.

[FX20014]

Andrew Wiggins vs. Giannis Antetokounmpo

I'm not sure what to make of any of the 2. Wiggins needs to play in an actual NBA game. Giannis, to me is a little overrated. His game is raw, but eventually should mature into a decent NBA player.

[NO-KG-AI]

I don't think he's as raw as that, and there are always exceptions to the rule. He's what, 19? Not like he's diop.

You are right, there are always exceptions, but I'm going with the 99% of players that have entered the league as raw as Giannis and haven't amounted to anything more than role players. Actually, who are the exceptions to this rule? I can't recall a player as raw as Giannis ever amounting to All-Star caliber.

Most players his age are pretty raw. You'll rarely find exceptions like Melo, Lebron, and Durant who come into the league pretty polished. Look at T-Mac, Dwight Howard, KG, Kobe, etc. I would say that being raw at age 19 is more of the norm not the exception even for superstars. Even Jordan's numbers during his first year in college weren't that impressive. These guys are just too young to show us what kind of player they are going to be. Give him 2 full years in the NBA before you call him too raw to become an all-star.

I get what he's saying, and he has shown flashes, but really, you can try to put it all into different contexts or make exceptions for his situation, but not a ton of players have produced as little as he did as a rookie and turned into superstars one day.

I haven't parsed the entire list, but guys under 11 PER as a rookie don't have a huge number of hits, he would definitely be one of the very very very few exceptions if he turned dominant. Steve Nash seems to be the exception to the rule... but isn't he always?

[F1uxCapacit0r]

You are right, there are always exceptions, but I'm going with the 99% of players that have entered the league as raw as Giannis and haven't amounted to anything more than role players. Actually, who are the exceptions to this rule? I can't recall a player as raw as Giannis ever amounting to All-Star caliber.

Most players his age are pretty raw. You'll rarely find exceptions like Melo, Lebron, and Durant who come into the league pretty polished. Look at T-Mac, Dwight Howard, KG, Kobe, etc. I would say that being raw at age 19 is more of the norm not the exception even for superstars. Even Jordan's numbers during his first year in college weren't that impressive. These guys are just too young to show us what kind of player they are going to be. Give him 2 full years in the NBA before you call him too raw to become an all-star.

I get what he's saying, and he has shown flashes, but really, you can try to put it all into different contexts or make exceptions for his situation, but not a ton of players have produced as little as he did as a rookie and turned into superstars one day.

I haven't parsed the entire list, but guys under 11 PER as a rookie don't have a huge number of hits, he would definitely be one of the very very very few exceptions if he turned dominant. Steve Nash seems to be the exception to the rule... but isn't he always?

I dont know if PER is really the best stat to use though. Doesn't much of Antetokounmpo potential come from A) the defensive side of the ball where he has the physical tools to be one of the better perimeter defenders B) his passing ability where he has legit Point forward skills

For me, I would look at a player like DD who was very athletic and raw as a rookie (albeit not as raw offensively as Antetokounmpo) who developed his game every year and added something new. Rookie PER 12.5 to 18.4 in his 5th year and still improving.

I dont see why Antetokounmpo cant have that same career trajectory. Not every player makes a huge Paul George style jump, some players progressively improve their game year by year.

[NO-KG-AI]

I dont know if PER is really the best stat to use though. Doesn't much of Antetokounmpo potential come from A) the defensive side of the ball where he has the physical tools to be one of the better perimeter defenders B) his passing ability where he has legit Point forward skills

For me, I would look at a player like DD who was very athletic and raw as a rookie (albeit not as raw offensively as Antetokounmpo) who developed his game every year and added something new. Rookie PER 12.5 to 18.4 in his 5th year and still improving.

I dont see why Antetokounmpo cant have that same career trajectory. Not every player makes a huge Paul George style jump, some players progressively improve their game year by year.

I don't disagree with what you're saying in theory, and I don't disagree that he can definitely become a very good player, but honestly, a lot of people will scoff at the idea of him being a Derozan level player in 5 years, like the idea is absolutely ludicrous, and that is where the disconnect is happening.

[SDChargers#1]

This thread is hilarious. The anti-Wiggins people are going to be eating so much crow at the end of the season.

[Illmatic12]

I still don't understand the Giannis hype

My thing is, I still don't understand the Wiggins hype.

I said it in the SL thread, if you take away the media hype, and take the names off the jerseys. Giannis to me clearly looked like the best prospect in summer league (including Wiggins, Parker, Noel, etc). I don't have a bias towards any of the players, but that's what it looked like.

If Giannis had gone to college in the states his hype would have been through the roof.

[SDChargers#1]

I still don't understand the Giannis hype

My thing is, I still don't understand the Wiggins hype.

I said it in the SL thread, if you take away the media hype, and take the names off the jerseys. Giannis to me clearly looked like the best prospect in summer league (including Wiggins, Parker, Noel, etc). I don't have a bias towards any of the players, but that's what it looked like.

If Giannis had gone to college in the states his hype would have been through the roof.

Your problem is your think Summer League actually matters...Hint: It doesn't, like at all.

[Rapcity_11]

I still don't understand the Giannis hype

My thing is, I still don't understand the Wiggins hype.

I said it in the SL thread, if you take away the media hype, and take the names off the jerseys. Giannis to me clearly looked like the best prospect in summer league (including Wiggins, Parker, Noel, etc). I don't have a bias towards any of the players, but that's what it looked like.

If Giannis had gone to college in the states his hype would have been through the roof.

How many of those guys played in the NBA last season? Yeah, just Giannis. That **** matters A LOT.

[Rapcity_11]

This thread is just another example of people getting way too excited about tall/lanky guys doing stuff like handling the ball and facilitating. They still have to be, you know actually good at it (relative to NBA players) for it to make them a good player in the NBA.

[YogurtProducer]

If the bucks were offered Wiggins for Giannis they would take the offer 100 percent of the time. I realize draft position isn't the greatest arguement, but He went 15th in a weak draft. And in today's scouting, odds are if he was a sure fire prospect he would've gone in the top 10 or 5, regardless of where he was from.

Odds are, Wiggins will likely have a far better career than Giannis. Although their ceilings are both extremely high, Wiggins' floor is higher than Giannis'. Once Wiggina has a year under his belt, he will look a lot better in the 2015 SL than Giannis did in the 2014 SL.

[Johnlac1]

If the bucks were offered Wiggins for Giannis they would take the offer 100 percent of the time. I realize draft position isn't the greatest arguement, but He went 15th in a weak draft. And in today's scouting, odds are if he was a sure fire prospect he would've gone in the top 10 or 5, regardless of where he was from.

Odds are, Wiggins will likely have a far better career than Giannis. Although their ceilings are both extremely high, Wiggins' floor is higher than Giannis'. Once Wiggina has a year under his belt, he will look a lot better in the 2015 SL than Giannis did in the 2014 SL.

As a Bucks fan, I wouldn't. Giannis will be a smarter, better all-around player. Nothing against Wiggins who I think can be an excellent player. But I'll take the smarter, better all-purpose ballplayer please.

[YogurtProducer]

If the bucks were offered Wiggins for Giannis they would take the offer 100 percent of the time. I realize draft position isn't the greatest arguement, but He went 15th in a weak draft. And in today's scouting, odds are if he was a sure fire prospect he would've gone in the top 10 or 5, regardless of where he was from.

Odds are, Wiggins will likely have a far better career than Giannis. Although their ceilings are both extremely high, Wiggins' floor is higher than Giannis'. Once Wiggina has a year under his belt, he will look a lot better in the 2015 SL than Giannis did in the 2014 SL.

As a Bucks fan, I wouldn't. Giannis will be a smarter, better all-around player. Nothing against Wiggins who I think can be an excellent player. But I'll take the smarter, better all-purpose ballplayer please.

In my opinion, that would be the wrong choice. Wiggins is a ROTY candidate this year and will more than likely show a better rookie year than Giannis did. Plus Wiggins has amazing physical traits and can only grow from here on out. I'm gonna guess in 2014-15 wiggins will already be better than Giannis and will continue to be better than him for the reaminder of his career

[Magic Giannison]

If the bucks were offered Wiggins for Giannis they would take the offer 100 percent of the time. I realize draft position isn't the greatest arguement, but He went 15th in a weak draft. And in today's scouting, odds are if he was a sure fire prospect he would've gone in the top 10 or 5, regardless of where he was from.

Odds are, Wiggins will likely have a far better career than Giannis. Although their ceilings are both extremely high, Wiggins' floor is higher than Giannis'. Once Wiggina has a year under his belt, he will look a lot better in the 2015 SL than Giannis did in the 2014 SL.

First of all no, Bucks wouldnt trade Giannis for Wiggins.
Secondly, it was explained time before on why Giannis went so low in the draft but il remind you.
1. Giannis came out from Greece's second division and he was 18 years old unknown .
2. Giannis said that he wants to play in the NBA straight away which scared most of the teams as they didnt want to get a player they didnt know nothing about and put him on the roster hence they passed.
3. Giannis was projected by the scouting reports to stay at least 2-3 years in Europe to develop before he was NBA ready but he already proved those guys wrong anyway.


So no, the 15th pick means absolutely nothing. Should i point out how many low draft picks became better than the top ones?

Giannis after only few months into his NBA debut was already picked as the # 1 by people that didnt even consider him in the top 20.

[NO-KG-AI]

If the bucks were offered Wiggins for Giannis they would take the offer 100 percent of the time. I realize draft position isn't the greatest arguement, but He went 15th in a weak draft. And in today's scouting, odds are if he was a sure fire prospect he would've gone in the top 10 or 5, regardless of where he was from.

Odds are, Wiggins will likely have a far better career than Giannis. Although their ceilings are both extremely high, Wiggins' floor is higher than Giannis'. Once Wiggina has a year under his belt, he will look a lot better in the 2015 SL than Giannis did in the 2014 SL.

First of all no, Bucks wouldnt trade Giannis for Wiggins.
Secondly, it was explained time before on why Giannis went so low in the draft but il remind you.
1. Giannis came out from Greece's second division and he was 18 years old unknown .
2. Giannis said that he wants to play in the NBA straight away which scared most of the teams as they didnt want to get a player they didnt know nothing about and put him on the roster hence they passed.
3. Giannis was projected by the scouting reports to stay at least 2-3 years in Europe to develop before he was NBA ready but he already proved those guys wrong anyway.


So no, the 15th pick means absolutely nothing. Should i point out how many low draft picks became better than the top ones?

Giannis after only few months into his NBA debut was already picked as the # 1 by people that didnt even consider him in the top 20.

You should point out how many superstars were pick 15ish, and how many were top 1ish.

[YogurtProducer]

If the bucks were offered Wiggins for Giannis they would take the offer 100 percent of the time. I realize draft position isn't the greatest arguement, but He went 15th in a weak draft. And in today's scouting, odds are if he was a sure fire prospect he would've gone in the top 10 or 5, regardless of where he was from.

Odds are, Wiggins will likely have a far better career than Giannis. Although their ceilings are both extremely high, Wiggins' floor is higher than Giannis'. Once Wiggina has a year under his belt, he will look a lot better in the 2015 SL than Giannis did in the 2014 SL.

First of all no, Bucks wouldnt trade Giannis for Wiggins.
Secondly, it was explained time before on why Giannis went so low in the draft but il remind you.
1. Giannis came out from Greece's second division and he was 18 years old unknown .
2. Giannis said that he wants to play in the NBA straight away which scared most of the teams as they didnt want to get a player they didnt know nothing about and put him on the roster hence they passed.
3. Giannis was projected by the scouting reports to stay at least 2-3 years in Europe to develop before he was NBA ready but he already proved those guys wrong anyway.


So no, the 15th pick means absolutely nothing. Should i point out how many low draft picks became better than the top ones?

Giannis after only few months into his NBA debut was already picked as the # 1 by people that didnt even consider him in the top 20.

I just think Buck fans are setting themselves up for disappointment. Giannis didn't exactly have some once in a generation rookie season, and is far more likely to become an average role player than the Allstar/superstar the bucks think he will be.

[Magic Giannison]

If the bucks were offered Wiggins for Giannis they would take the offer 100 percent of the time. I realize draft position isn't the greatest arguement, but He went 15th in a weak draft. And in today's scouting, odds are if he was a sure fire prospect he would've gone in the top 10 or 5, regardless of where he was from.

Odds are, Wiggins will likely have a far better career than Giannis. Although their ceilings are both extremely high, Wiggins' floor is higher than Giannis'. Once Wiggina has a year under his belt, he will look a lot better in the 2015 SL than Giannis did in the 2014 SL.

First of all no, Bucks wouldnt trade Giannis for Wiggins.
Secondly, it was explained time before on why Giannis went so low in the draft but il remind you.
1. Giannis came out from Greece's second division and he was 18 years old unknown .
2. Giannis said that he wants to play in the NBA straight away which scared most of the teams as they didnt want to get a player they didnt know nothing about and put him on the roster hence they passed.
3. Giannis was projected by the scouting reports to stay at least 2-3 years in Europe to develop before he was NBA ready but he already proved those guys wrong anyway.


So no, the 15th pick means absolutely nothing. Should i point out how many low draft picks became better than the top ones?

Giannis after only few months into his NBA debut was already picked as the # 1 by people that didnt even consider him in the top 20.

You should point out how many superstars were pick 15ish, and how many were top 1ish.

Lets see.
Gasol, Duncan, Ginobili,Scola ,Parker,Rondo,Redd and more recently Dragic.
Granted the are stars and not superstars but if my memory serves right Kobe was drafted as 13th pick in 1996 ?
George was drafted 10th ?
Unless you do not consider the above mentioned players worth enough then i guess nothing will.
Like i've said, good draft pick doesn't guarantee you nothing as we have seen plenty of top pick busts in the past.

[Magic Giannison]

If the bucks were offered Wiggins for Giannis they would take the offer 100 percent of the time. I realize draft position isn't the greatest arguement, but He went 15th in a weak draft. And in today's scouting, odds are if he was a sure fire prospect he would've gone in the top 10 or 5, regardless of where he was from.

Odds are, Wiggins will likely have a far better career than Giannis. Although their ceilings are both extremely high, Wiggins' floor is higher than Giannis'. Once Wiggina has a year under his belt, he will look a lot better in the 2015 SL than Giannis did in the 2014 SL.

First of all no, Bucks wouldnt trade Giannis for Wiggins.
Secondly, it was explained time before on why Giannis went so low in the draft but il remind you.
1. Giannis came out from Greece's second division and he was 18 years old unknown .
2. Giannis said that he wants to play in the NBA straight away which scared most of the teams as they didnt want to get a player they didnt know nothing about and put him on the roster hence they passed.
3. Giannis was projected by the scouting reports to stay at least 2-3 years in Europe to develop before he was NBA ready but he already proved those guys wrong anyway.


So no, the 15th pick means absolutely nothing. Should i point out how many low draft picks became better than the top ones?

Giannis after only few months into his NBA debut was already picked as the # 1 by people that didnt even consider him in the top 20.

I just think Buck fans are setting themselves up for disappointment. Giannis didn't exactly have some once in a generation rookie season, and is far more likely to become an average role player than the Allstar/superstar the bucks think he will be.

George averaged 7.8 points, 3.7 rebounds, 1.1 assists on 45% shooting in his first season.
Do not take numbers especially of a guy that came into NBA as 18 years old with minimum experience .
Like ive said before, people should watch the Bucks games and not only Giannis highlights. Giannis makes a lot of work without the ball which stats never show.
The way our coach handle Giannis last season also limited his stats by a big margin.
We are hyped for Giannis because he exceeded all expectations so far, he shows big talent and knows how to play the game.Giannis also improves defensively a lot, especially with the FIBA games he is getting now.
Nobody expected Giannis to play in the NBA for 2-3 more years but they were wrong.
We believe that he and Jabari will be our franchise players that will make us top tier team, yes.

[YogurtProducer]

First of all no, Bucks wouldnt trade Giannis for Wiggins.
Secondly, it was explained time before on why Giannis went so low in the draft but il remind you.
1. Giannis came out from Greece's second division and he was 18 years old unknown .
2. Giannis said that he wants to play in the NBA straight away which scared most of the teams as they didnt want to get a player they didnt know nothing about and put him on the roster hence they passed.
3. Giannis was projected by the scouting reports to stay at least 2-3 years in Europe to develop before he was NBA ready but he already proved those guys wrong anyway.


So no, the 15th pick means absolutely nothing. Should i point out how many low draft picks became better than the top ones?

Giannis after only few months into his NBA debut was already picked as the # 1 by people that didnt even consider him in the top 20.

I just think Buck fans are setting themselves up for disappointment. Giannis didn't exactly have some once in a generation rookie season, and is far more likely to become an average role player than the Allstar/superstar the bucks think he will be.

George averaged 7.8 points, 3.7 rebounds, 1.1 assists on 45% shooting in his first season.
Do not take numbers especially of a guy that came into NBA as 18 years old with minimum experience .
Like ive said before, people should watch the Bucks games and not only Giannis highlights. Giannis makes a lot of work without the ball which stats never show.
The way our coach handle Giannis last season also limited his stats by a big margin.
We are hyped for Giannis because he exceeded all expectations so far, he shows big talent and knows how to play the game.Giannis also improves defensively a lot, especially with the FIBA games he is getting now.
Nobody expected Giannis to play in the NBA for 2-3 more years but they were wrong.
We believe that he and Jabari will be our franchise players that will make us top tier team, yes.

George blossomed into a superstar player, but hundreds of others who averaged those numbers never amounted to anything more. Buck fans with Giannis are just like Rap fans with JV. They'll both be good players, but neither will be the Allstar or Superstar both fanbases expect them to be.

[YogurtProducer]

First of all no, Bucks wouldnt trade Giannis for Wiggins.
Secondly, it was explained time before on why Giannis went so low in the draft but il remind you.
1. Giannis came out from Greece's second division and he was 18 years old unknown .
2. Giannis said that he wants to play in the NBA straight away which scared most of the teams as they didnt want to get a player they didnt know nothing about and put him on the roster hence they passed.
3. Giannis was projected by the scouting reports to stay at least 2-3 years in Europe to develop before he was NBA ready but he already proved those guys wrong anyway.


So no, the 15th pick means absolutely nothing. Should i point out how many low draft picks became better than the top ones?

Giannis after only few months into his NBA debut was already picked as the # 1 by people that didnt even consider him in the top 20.

You should point out how many superstars were pick 15ish, and how many were top 1ish.

Lets see.
Gasol, Duncan, Ginobili,Scola ,Parker,Rondo,Redd and more recently Dragic.
Granted the are stars and not superstars but if my memory serves right Kobe was drafted as 13th pick in 1996 ?
George was drafted 10th ?
Unless you do not consider the above mentioned players worth enough then i guess nothing will.
Like i've said, good draft pick doesn't guarantee you nothing as we have seen plenty of top pick busts in the past.

Um, were any of those players you listed drafted 15th?

Also, if Giannis was the can't miss prospect like you say, teams wouldn't skip over him just because he might stay overseas for a couple years. Don't always believe the media reports you head. If Giannis showed superstar qualities like you believe he has, a team would've drafted him before 15th. Giannis can still be a superstar, but history is most definitely not on your side. Especially with today's scouting ability, teams wouldn't of skipped over Giannis (in a weak draft) because he was Playing in Greece, 18 years old, and not expected to play immedientely.

Also should point out I love Giannis as a prospect, but settle your expectations and take off the homer glasses. They are many prospects out there in the NBA today who have much better than Giannis