Open Court: 50 Greatest & Next 10

[Clyde Frazier]

McGrady over wade?

He played worse than prime wade for all but one year and was constantly hurt

Also these guys just brush over the fact that McGrady never led a team to the second round of the playoffs while wade had arguably the best finals ever


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...what?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#MIA-DAL

I think it's the best but I haven't looked around and compared it to other great series.

2000 Shaq was also dominant in the finals

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2000_finals.html?mobile=false

I need to actually watch the series in depth and revisit 2006 to get a clearer picture though


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Meant to add this here, too:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1347631

You can certainly value his performance highly, but it's kind of a slap in the face to the all time greats to make such a matter of fact statement.

[Doctor MJ]

Thoughts?
I thought the whole Webber discussion was pretty hilariously uncomfortable. I get the feeling that he wouldn't have been in the discussion if he weren't sitting there in the room. Also, I feel like there is a disconnect between fans and actual NBA players in regards to Nash. I have this feeling that a little bit underneath the surface a lot of players have a different opinion of Nash then the opinion they state publicly.

I don't know what they really think of Webber.

What I do know is that Webber reputation completely shifted once he was the star of those strong King teams, and being a guy with that legacy is something pretty easy to take seriously. From that perspective, considering Webber for the top 50/60 is plenty understandable.

Of course from a more analytical perspective, Webber comes off looking a lot worse.

Regarding Nash, I think the key to understand him in the minds of your average observer, which includes players like this, is that they think he's phenomenal at the things he does, but adding it up holistically they just can't see rate him above guys they perceive to have no glaring weaknesses. It's a very understandable perspective, but it's imperfect.

[Basketballefan]

I've been saying for a long time Wade and Nash were overrated at realgm and there's validation here.

Pretty much all agreed Nash thrived in a gadget system and Payton and Kidd were easy choices over him. Smith was the only one really going to bat for Wade, while Shaq took Penny and McGrady over him. That was brutal.

If there's an argument for Wade to not be top 50 i would love to hear it.

[Zasterror]

I am not arguing that A.I. shouldn't be in the Top 50, he definitely should be. But he was never a better player than Wade/Nash/and eventually KD.
And C-Webb being even debated on is absolutely insane and asinine.

[D Nice]

I am not arguing that A.I. shouldn't be in the Top 50, he definitely should be. But he was never a better player than Wade/Nash/and eventually KD.

Are you just referencing peaks? Because Iverson and Wade's primes pretty much never overlapped, the only 2 years you could make the case they did were '05 and '06, and in 2005 the two guys are a coinflip, and in '06 Wade is better, top 5 player vs a top 10 player. Iverson was a markedly superior player to Nash from 2000-2004 before Nash reversed it in 2005-2007. AI was essentially out of the league before Durant became a relevant player. This is a peculiar post.

And C-Webb being even debated on is absolutely insane and asinine.

In what sense exactly? He was discussed as being in the same realm as Pierce and Carter (Penny got a mention too), and was probably given the slight advantage due to the fact he was literally sitting right there. How is that unfair or "absolutely insane and asinine?" It's about right where he falls in comparison to his contemporaries. I do think he's worse than Cater/Pierce from a career perspective, but this is primarily because he was hurt so much. He's probably the only one of the 3 that was ever a top 5 player (Carter I suppose has an argument in 2001).

[GYK]

Webber absolutely deserves mention
http://followpics.co/kevin-garnett-chri ... be-bryant/
He is the forgotten man of the era. He had a winning record against the other greats. Elevating his teams as the number one option. While posting amazing stats.
He is one of those players that perception has more impact on the fans view then what actually happened on the court.

Elevated his teams plural? You mean Washington and Golden State? I'm going to STRONGLY differ on that. He was extremely talented, but his dislike of physical contact made both his offense (extremely low foul draw rate for a 20+ppg big) and defense (consistently let opposing post players get good position against him) appreciably weaker than you would expect from watching his highlights or looking only at fg% and shotblocking. Not even going into his off court issues or history of choking.

I understand his flaws but each team he went to on the next level. Either from relative doormat to contender in SAC.
I don't see how that is deniable.
His history of choking is overrated and is mostly based on the Fab Five days. His pro career isn't filled with choking just not winning a championship. While not playing with what I would say is another top 100 player. Unless not winning means choking then Webber wasn't a choke artist.

[PCProductions]

Amazing how pedestrian they sound; almost casual-fan sounding at some point. It would be much more interesting with coaches or analysts to say the least.

[giordunk]

As much as I like Open Court and think it's great entertainment you have to remember that the players have their own biases and agendas. Take their opinions with a grain of salt. Sometimes they will give good opinions and insights and other times you can tell that they really dislike a particular player lol.

And people posting on an internet forum don't have any biases? I trust these opinions more because they are actual players who understand the pro game more than any of us will ever will. Sure things will get personal (lol @ Pippen reactions) but it's really interesting to hear player opinions on each other.

Also, there are some guys on the Top 50 who probably wouldn't make the Top 50 today after counting in all the new talent (Dave Bing, Dolph Schayes)

[PaulieWal]

As much as I like Open Court and think it's great entertainment you have to remember that the players have their own biases and agendas. Take their opinions with a grain of salt. Sometimes they will give good opinions and insights and other times you can tell that they really dislike a particular player lol.

And people posting on an internet forum don't have any biases? I trust these opinions more because they are actual players who understand the pro game more than any of us will ever will. Sure things will get personal (lol @ Pippen reactions) but it's really interesting to hear player opinions on each other.

Also, there are some guys on the Top 50 who probably wouldn't make the Top 50 today after counting in all the new talent (Dave Bing, Dolph Schayes)

Who said they don't? The point was that these players have their own biases and at the end of the day it's only entertainment. I said this in the thread but you have Shaq (played with him) and Billups (played against him) keeping Wade out of the Top 50 for example, so yeah, definitely take players evaluating other players with a grain of salt. At least I do.

[john248]

I happened to catch this last night. The one thing that really stuck out to me was when shaq said something to the effect of, "Do you think nash really deserved those MVPs, or were they sympathy MVPs?"

A) Shaq was nash's teammate and actually had a short resurgence in PHX individually

B) I'm not surprised that he made the comment given how much of an egomaniac he is, but it was still pretty weak.

I was caught off guard by all the hating on pippen (although it was led by isiah). Couldn't help but laugh.

Shaq has burned bridged everywhere he went. He allegedly took the idea of the TV show Shaq Vs from Nash then had to give Nash a producer's credit.

Also Charles Barkley once again proves his utter lack of basketball knowledge and hypocrisy in criticizing Jordan

What did he say about Jordan? I must've missed it.

It's not in this video I'm stating how he used to constant rib on Jordan's failings as a manager when the bobcats were doing really bad

I think it caused the competitive MJ to quit talking to him for a while

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Jordan was terrible at putting together a team and stopped talking to Barkley due to that criticism. As a talking head, what do you expect Barkley to do? Say Jordan was doing great?

And why was Shaq so against Wade? The man basically won an extra ring for him.

It's funny how unpopular Steve Nash was in that circle... Barkley was talking so much about Webber's impact... then downplays Nash, who actually made the Suns a constant contender (not in the Webber - GSW, WAS sense ).

Shaq screwed up in Miami too. Went against Riley who Wade sided with. Then traded to the Suns.

[kennygee90]

Iverson was a seriously great player. He could do things on the court that I didn't think could be done, and he was one of the most entertaining players i've ever watched. He gave his all to the sixers and i mean his all to keep that team afloat. Dude always played the highest minutes and always brought everything he had every night especially his hustle and energy. Damn i miss watching him play

[HotRocks34]

If Nash isn't on the list it's very difficult for me to take the list seriously. You're talking about arguably the greatest shooter in NBA history and a 2-time MVP. "Sympathy MVPs?" Stop.

[Laimbeer]

And C-Webb being even debated on is absolutely insane and asinine.

Honest question - because he definitely is or is not top 50?

[Zasterror]

And C-Webb being even debated on is absolutely insane and asinine.

Honest question - because he definitely is or is not top 50?

Even though I strongly disagree that he is Top 50, that's not what I am most frustrated about. The panel tried their damnedest to include him in the Next Top 10, while omitting more worthy players like Pierce/Nash/Wade/etc. C-Webb is easily the guy who will be on the outside looking in.

[RightToCensor]

I lost all respect for Shaq after watching that episode. I never wanted to admit he was an egomaniac, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Steve Nash and Dwight Howard deserved so much more respect than what Shaq showed. Steve is a 2 time NBA MVP because he displayed the greatest offenses this league has ever seen. Dwight is a 3 time DPOY, with multiple rebounding and blocking titles, Dwight also lead his Orlando team to the NBA Finals just like Shaq did (except Dwight won a game).

[Basketballefan]

As much as I like Open Court and think it's great entertainment you have to remember that the players have their own biases and agendas. Take their opinions with a grain of salt. Sometimes they will give good opinions and insights and other times you can tell that they really dislike a particular player lol.

And people posting on an internet forum don't have any biases? I trust these opinions more because they are actual players who understand the pro game more than any of us will ever will. Sure things will get personal (lol @ Pippen reactions) but it's really interesting to hear player opinions on each other.

Also, there are some guys on the Top 50 who probably wouldn't make the Top 50 today after counting in all the new talent (Dave Bing, Dolph Schayes)

I love this logic of yours. They played bball therfore their ranking of other players isn't wrong.

So i guess if they said Dwight>hakeem that would make them right?

[Perkele]

Yeah, saying Wade isn't a clear cut top 50 player is disgusting.

Wilkins, Cwebb and Miller over Wade? Comical.

How does Nash not even get a vote?

Shaq really does hold grudges. I always thought his beef was with Riley but for some reason you can tell he's soured on Wade lately (maybe some behind the scenes stuff).

Shaq Cwebb, Billups and Barkley all said Wade is not a top 50 player.

i guess he was always just a fringe all star.

I can't stand Wade, but that's ridiculous. Sure fire top 50, no discussion needed.

[cpower]

So like many of you guys probably are I'm a fan of this show and I was happy to see its season debut yesterday.

Ernie was moderating of course and the panel includes - Kenny, Isiah, Reggie, Barkley, Webber, Billups, and Shaq.
Here's the video in its entirity if you haven't seen it.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOEimrfJuaY&index[/youtube]

Here's a summary if you don't want to watch it all.
First unanimous 6:
Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
AI
KG
Dirk

Second unanimous picks:
Dominique Wilkins
Bob Mcadoo
Webber (picked expect Kenny brought up Nash before finally agreeing)

Mentions:
Paul Pierce
Wade
Reggie (He took himself off the list)
T-Mac (Shaq kept throwing names out I think half-jokingly like Penny and GP)
Nash (Barkley accused him of being a "systems player" and Reggie said if he were a GM he'd pick Nash after Kidd and GP in a line-up)

Finally they agreed to the ten by giving Webber the boot and adding Durant and Wade.
So the ten are Duncan/Kobe/Lebron/AI/KG/Dirk/Wilkins/Mcadoo/Durant/Wade

Thoughts?
I thought the whole Webber discussion was pretty hilariously uncomfortable. I get the feeling that he wouldn't have been in the discussion if he weren't sitting there in the room. Also, I feel like there is a disconnect between fans and actual NBA players in regards to Nash. I have this feeling that a little bit underneath the surface a lot of players have a different opinion of Nash then the opinion they state publicly.

guys on the list are the alphas, nash isn't one of them.

[RightToCensor]

So like many of you guys probably are I'm a fan of this show and I was happy to see its season debut yesterday.

Ernie was moderating of course and the panel includes - Kenny, Isiah, Reggie, Barkley, Webber, Billups, and Shaq.
Here's the video in its entirity if you haven't seen it.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOEimrfJuaY&index[/youtube]

Here's a summary if you don't want to watch it all.
First unanimous 6:
Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
AI
KG
Dirk

Second unanimous picks:
Dominique Wilkins
Bob Mcadoo
Webber (picked expect Kenny brought up Nash before finally agreeing)

Mentions:
Paul Pierce
Wade
Reggie (He took himself off the list)
T-Mac (Shaq kept throwing names out I think half-jokingly like Penny and GP)
Nash (Barkley accused him of being a "systems player" and Reggie said if he were a GM he'd pick Nash after Kidd and GP in a line-up)

Finally they agreed to the ten by giving Webber the boot and adding Durant and Wade.
So the ten are Duncan/Kobe/Lebron/AI/KG/Dirk/Wilkins/Mcadoo/Durant/Wade

Thoughts?
I thought the whole Webber discussion was pretty hilariously uncomfortable. I get the feeling that he wouldn't have been in the discussion if he weren't sitting there in the room. Also, I feel like there is a disconnect between fans and actual NBA players in regards to Nash. I have this feeling that a little bit underneath the surface a lot of players have a different opinion of Nash then the opinion they state publicly.

guys on the list are the alphas, nash isn't one of them.

Did you more watch Nash and his amazing games vs. San Antonio

[cpower]

Why the hell A.I. is so high and Wade just barely made the list? Jesus Christ.

maybe the players had some insider information which are not general available to public, e.g. how wade gets easy whistles?