RealGM Top 100 List #51

Notanoob · Post #41 » by **Notanoob** » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:19 pm

Runoff vote : Adrian Dantley

One of the best scoring small forwards ever, with a truly incredible combination of scoring and efficiency, which blows away Iverson's scoring. Would be Finals MVP of the Piston's would-be threepeat. Underrated and unlucky.

Post #42 » by **trex_8063** » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:20 pm

On the topic of these little categorical criteria qualifiers (because now I'm kinda having fun playing around with that), how about I try one that isn't cherry-picking at ONE of Iverson's better seasons......

In the FIVE YEAR SPAN of '04 thru '08 (which includes a BAD outlier year for him in '04), Iverson AVERAGED 28.7 ppg, 7.3 apg, @ 53.6 ts%.
So, even allowing a few tenths head-room under each of these averages, how many times within a single season has >28 ppg, >7 apg @ >53 ts% been done? Answer: Just 19 times (and he's got two of them).

If we lower the scoring bar slightly making things >26 ppg, >7 apg, >53 ts% (selected for at least 40 games), there's still only 25 times in NBA history (and Iverson is FOUR of them).

Anyway, just playing around now.....

Post #43 » by **trex_8063** » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:21 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Adrian Dantley (5) -- Doctor MJ, Owly, Clyde Frazier, Moonbeam, penbeast0

Allen Iverson -- Joao Saraiva, trex_8063, E-Balla

Alex English -- ronnymac2, penbeast2

Notanoob -- Bill Walton

Well, it looks like English missed the runoff again. Dantley is the clear statistical leader and has been for a while but I had questions about his team impact and was unimpressed with his defense. Moonbeam, however, has done a great job of answering those questions so I can vote for AD in the runoff pretty easily.

Basketballefan voted Iverson (post #35).

ronnymac2 · Post #44 » by **ronnymac2** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:05 am

Vote: Allen Iverson

AI is my runoff vote here. It's funny...2 of the most prolific scorers ever with polar-opposite styles who have major questions marks surrounding their actual impact relative to their point per game averages.

And I agree they both should have question marks. But I don't think either was put in a position to thrive (though they each had a few seasons towards the end of their primes where they kind of did).

On a championship offense, I don't think Iverson or Dantley approach 30 PPG. The only guy who should be scoring 30 PPG on a great offensive team is Michael Jordan, and he's the GOAT scorer. And even he shouldn't be too far over 30 PPG. You're pushing your luck there.

Iverson's optimal role is 25 points, 6 assists, 4 rebounds, 2.5 steals, average defense, 3 turnovers, average 3-point threat (can get hot), GOAT slashing and 1 vs. 1 ability from perimeter, and playing the shooting guard position.

Dantley's optimal role is 24 points, 6 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 1.25 steals, average defense, less than 2.5 turnovers, average mid-range jumper threat, GOAT post-up and foul draw in the paint from a guy his height, and playing a forward position (depends on era which one).

I prefer Iverson because of his more dynamic style of attack. Both probably get underrated. Can't go wrong either way.

Post #45 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:22 am

Adrian Dantley (6) -- Doctor MJ, Owly, Clyde Frazier, Moonbeam, penbeast0, Notanoob

Allen Iverson (5) -- Joao Saraiva, trex_8063, E-Balla, basketballefan, ronnymac2

Post #46 » by **Quotatious** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:51 am

Runoff vote: Adrian Dantley

First of all, let me say this - I find this comparison extremely interesting - they're so similar, yet so different at the same time, and I feel like their numbers are misleading, to a certain degree. Iverson was a bit more valuable, better scorer than his below average efficiency suggests, Dantley was a bit less valuable, worse scorer than his efficiency suggests, but still, Dantley was a better scorer than Iverson. The gap in terms of efficiency is just too big. Obviously AI's vastly superior playmaking makes it really close, as far as who was the better overall offensive player, but Dantley is one of the very best scorers in NBA history, he's absolutely elite at one thing, and I can't say the same about Iverson. Well, Answer was certainly a fantastic shot creator, which is a pretty valuable skill per se, but it's also true that he was a bit too selfish to really anchor an elite offense. I just think that your team's offensive ceiling is limited if AI is your top offensive option. I'm obviously well aware that Dantley isn't exactly great in terms of translating his insane scoring numbers into efficient team offense, he's a ball stopper etc., but Iverson doesn't even seem to get the edge in this regard, quite frankly. AI was better defensively, but he wasn't anything special (other than steals) on D, so it's not a big deal.

Career WS clearly favor Dantley, despite the fact that he played less career minutes. 143.2 WS (18.9 WS/48 in RS) in 36666 minutes (regular season + playoffs combined) to 106.3 (12.6 in RS) in 40787 minutes for Iverson.
I'm really not a fan of drawing conclusions based on a stat like WS alone, but with the comparison being so close, based on other evidence, I'll use that as a tiebreaker.

It's very close, though, and I wouldn't mind if Iverson won this run-off.

Post #47 » by **Moonbeam** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:09 am

penbeast0 wrote:Well, it looks like English missed the runoff again. Dantley is the clear statistical leader and has been for a while but I had questions about his team impact and was unimpressed with his defense. Moonbeam, however, has done a great job of answering those questions so I can vote for AD in the runoff pretty easily.

English is probably my next vote! I had a really hard time separating him from Dantley given English's consistency, his durability, and his proven track record of being the main cog in a top-flight offense. In the end, Dantley's sizable edge in efficiency, his great contributions in another role in Detroit during two very deep playoff runs, and the head-to-head matchups made me side with AD, but English is someone well worth considering at this point, for sure!

Post #48 » by **Moonbeam** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:14 am

Quotatious wrote:Runoff vote: Adrian Dantley

First of all, let me say this - I find this comparison extremely interesting - they're so similar, yet so different at the same time, and I feel like their numbers are misleading, to a certain degree. Iverson was a bit more valuable, better scorer than his below average efficiency suggests, Dantley was a bit less valuable, worse scorer than his efficiency suggests, but still, Dantley was a better scorer than Iverson.

It is a very interesting comparison. I don't agree that Dantley was a worse scorer than his numbers suggest. I think Dantley was not as good of an offensive player overall as his numbers may suggest, because he wasn't nearly the same playmaker as someone like Bird, nor did he provide the same type of spacing as someone like Dirk. Maybe your point about his scoring not being as "valuable" is appropriate, but for sheer scoring ability, Dantley has few peers. I actually think the 0.44 approximation for free throw attempts may be selling Dantley's TS% short, as he was renowned for his ability to get And-1's.

Post #49 » by **tsherkin** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:35 am

I've seen some really interesting pro-Dantley stuff, so that's my vote this round.

Vote Adrian Dantley

Edit: I will make this post not suck later.

SactoKingsFan · Post #50 » by **SactoKingsFan** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:01 am

Run-off vote: Adrian Dantley

Although Iverson has a sizeable edge when it comes to passing/ playmaking, I'm more impressed with Dantley's prime and volume scoring on ATG efficiency.

Sent from my LG-G2 using RealGM Forums

Post #51 » by **trex_8063** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:00 am

For recap of what I found of Iverson's effect on offense and overall team outcomes, I quoted my prior post (EDIT: btw, for all of these SRS values I valuated HCA as being worth 3 pts; this based roughly off some numbers Moonbeam had mentioned):

trex_8063 wrote:AVERAGE effect of having Iverson vs. not having him over aforementioned years:
NOT weighted for games played/missed
+7.3 ppg
+1.1% TS%
+2.3 ORtg
+4.61 SRS
Weighted for games played
+7.4 ppg
+1.2% TS%
+2.5 ORtg
+4.21 SRS
Weighted for games missed
+7.1 ppg
+0.8% TS%
+1.4 ORtg
+2.90 SRS
39-59 record (.398) without, 251-193 record (.565) with (avg of +13.7 wins per 82-game season).

Went thru and did the same for Dantley ('80 thru '87); game data in the spoiler:

Spoiler:

Average effect of having Dantley vs. not having him
NOT weighted for games played/missed *only two years data for ts% and ORtg ('86 and '87)
+3.1 ppg
+0.7% TS%*
-2.8 ORtg*
+1.74 SRS
Weighted for games PLAYED
+3.1 ppg
+0.6% TS%*
-3.0 ORtg*
+2.17 SRS
Weighted for games MISSED
+2.7 ppg
+2.2 TS%*
+1.5 ORtg*
-0.28 SRS
41-73 (.360) record w/o him, 246-296 (.454) record with: avg +7.7 wins per 82-game season.

For whatever apparently individual statistical superiority Dantley has, he does not appear to have had a comparable level of impact on team success in his prime as Iverson did (Iverson's prime lasted longer, too).

Joao Saraiva · Post #52 » by **Joao Saraiva** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:50 am

I don't mind seeing Adrian Dantley getting in, I was thinking about for him right after Iverson. I think Dantley is an underrated player due to team results. Some people almost describe him getting away from the Pistons as a reason they won next year and I don't agree: Dantley played really solid basketball the entire year and ended up with great NBA finals.

I just wonder how many run-offs will Iverson lose. He had a ton more votes than Dantley for #49, for #50 and now he's about to lose to Dantley for #51. I don't really know if I like this kind of run off vote but it's necessary. I just don't think it's accurate, but I don't see an alternative of which I'm 100% sure. Should there be a limit of times a player goes into the run off?

Joao Saraiva · Post #53 » by **Joao Saraiva** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:55 am

trex_8063 wrote:For recap of what I found of Iverson's effect on offense and overall team outcomes, I quoted my prior post (EDIT: btw, for all of these SRS values I valuated HCA as being worth 3 pts; this based roughly off some numbers Moonbeam had mentioned):

trex_8063 wrote:AVERAGE effect of having Iverson vs. not having him over aforementioned years:
NOT weighted for games played/missed
+7.3 ppg
+1.1% TS%
+2.3 ORtg
+4.61 SRS
Weighted for games played
+7.4 ppg
+1.2% TS%
+2.5 ORtg
+4.21 SRS
Weighted for games missed
+7.1 ppg
+0.8% TS%
+1.4 ORtg
+2.90 SRS
39-59 record (.398) without, 251-193 record (.565) with (avg of +13.7 wins per 82-game season).

Went thru and did the same for Dantley ('80 thru '87); game data in the spoiler:

Spoiler:
When Dantley missed games in his prime…..

’80
10/18/79: 92 pts, -18.87 SRS (L)
11/20/79: 107 pts, -8.57 SRS (L)
01/11/80: 90 pts, -2.76 SRS (L)
01/12/80: 102 pts, -17.97 SRS (L)
01/13/80: 103 pts, +3.25 SRS (L)
01/15/80: 99 pts, -4.61 SRS (L)
03/18/80: 94 pts, -3.22 SRS (L)
03/19/80: 103 pts, -2.63 SRS (W)
03/21/80: 98 pts, -4.19 SRS (L)
03/23/80: 96 pts, +3.39 SRS (L)
03/25/80: 109 pts, +10.78 SRS (W)
03/27/80: 95 pts, +0.39 SRS (L)
03/29/80: 106 pts, -4.63 SRS (L)
03/30/80: 91 pts, -9.44 SRS (L)
Avg without Dantley: 98.9 ppg, -4.22 SRS.
Avg WITH Dantley: 103.1 ppg (+4.2), -6.02 SRS (-1.80).
2-12 (.143) w/o, 22-46 (.324) record with.

’81
01/23/81: 101 pts, -6.41 SRS (L)
01/24/81: 91 pts, -12.20 SRS (L)
Avg without Dantley: 96.0 ppg, -9.31 SRS.
Avg WITH Dantley: 101.4 ppg (+5.4), -5.91 SRS (+3.40).
0-2 record w/o, 28-52 (.350) record with.

’82
04/09/82: 99 pts, -16.25 SRS (L)
Avg WITH Dantley: 111.0 ppg (+12.0), -5.50 SRS (+10.75).
0-1 record w/o, 25-56 (.309) with.

’83
11/12/82: 98 pts, -11.72 SRS (L)
11/27/82: 113 pts, -2.47 SRS (L)
12/18/82: 116 pts, +4.88 SRS (W)
12/20/82: 119 pts, +0.04 SRS (W)
12/22/82: 100 pts, -15.94 SRS (L)
12/25/82: 101 pts, -8.39 SRS (L)
12/26/82: 118 pts, +2.04 SRS (L)
12/28/82: 105 pts, +3.83 SRS (W)
12/29/82: 92 pts, -11.12 SRS (L)
12/30/82: 114 pts, -9.36 SRS (L)
01/01/83: 112 pts, -12.66 SRS (L)
01/04/83: 100 pts, +11.52 SRS (W)
01/05/83: 115 pts, -14.61 SRS (L)
01/07/83: 117 pts, -17.96 SRS (L)
01/08/83: 87 pts, -3.12 SRS (W)
01/11/83: 106 pts, +6.04 SRS (W)
01/12/83: 118 pts, -4.73 SRS (L)
01/15/83: 107 pts, -1.70 SRS (W)
01/16/83: 115 pts, +2.39 SRS (W)
01/19/83: 95 pts, -14.48 SRS (L)
01/21/83: 108 pts, +14.58 SRS (W)
01/22/83: 88 pts, -35.70 SRS (L)
01/25/83: 106 pts, -9.90 SRS (L)
01/27/83: 106 pts, -9.12 SRS (L)
01/29/83: 109 pts, -12.47 SRS (L)
02/02/83: 96 pts, -8.39 SRS (L)
02/04/83: 110 pts, -10.68 SRS (L)
02/05/83: 136 pts, -3.73 SRS (L)
02/09/83: 99 pts, -5.94 SRS (L)
02/10/83: 99 pts, -6.12 SRS (L)
02/16/83: 112 pts, +11.10 SRS (W)
02/18/83: 97 pts, -5.12 SRS (L)
02/20/83: 97 pts, -11.61 SRS (L)
02/22/83: 98 pts, -3.80 SRS (L)
02/24/83: 103 pts, -5.39 SRS (L)
02/26/83: 101 pts, +11.06 SRS (W)
02/27/83: 98 pts, +2.88 SRS (L)
03/01/83: 127 pts, +14.39 SRS (W)
03/03/83: 118 pts, -4.78 SRS (W)
03/05/83: 121 pts, -6.48 SRS (L)
03/06/83: 110 pts, +9.88 SRS (W)
03/09/83: 109 pts, -15.73 SRS (L)
03/11/83: 119 pts, +5.30 SRS (W)
03/13/83: 117 pts, -9.73 SRS (L)
03/16/83: 125 pts, +12.83 SRS (W)
03/19/83: 94 pts, -2.72 SRS (L)
03/22/83: 98 pts, -19.80 SRS (L)
03/23/83: 104 pts, -14.23 SRS (L)
03/25/83: 117 pts, -4.36 SRS (L)
03/27/83: 108 pts, -14.12 SRS (L)
03/29/83: 107 pts, -0.39 SRS (L)
03/30/83: 117 pts, +10.30 SRS (W)
04/01/83: 112 pts, -2.48 SRS (W)
04/05/83: 126 pts, +14.88 SRS (W)
04/08/83: 97 pts, -10.96 SRS (L)
04/09/83: 102 pts, -7.96 SRS (L)
04/12/83: 125 pts, +6.27 SRS (W)
04/13/83: 99 pts, -4.70 SRS (L)
04/15/83: 118 pts, +3.10 SRS (L)
04/16/83: 126 pts, +0.88 SRS (W)
Avg without Dantley: 108.5 ppg, -3.77 SRS.
WITH Dantley: 110.5 ppg (+2.0), -5.44 SRS (-1.67).
21-39 (.350) record w/o, 9-13 (.409) record with.

’84
11/09/83: 99 pts, -3.50 SRS (L)
03/07/84: 106 pts, -1.58 SRS (L)
03/22/84: 126 pts, -0.50 SRS (L)
Avg without Dantley: 110.3 ppg, -1.86 SRS.
WITH Dantley: 115.2 ppg (+4.8), +0.91 SRS (+2.77).
0-3 record w/o, 45-34 (.570) record with.

’85
10/26/84: 94 pts, -10.44 SRS (L)
10/27/84: 94 pts, -16.55 SRS (L)
10/30/84: 117 pts, -1.09 SRS (W)
11/02/84: 107 pts, -2.44 SRS (W)
11/03/84: 107 pts, -9.21 SRS (L)
11/07/84: 136 pts, +9.63 SRS (W)
11/20/84: 122 pts, -6.71 SRS (L)
11/21/84: 90 pts, -30.14 SRS (L)
11/23/84: 111 pts, +11.38 SRS (W)
11/24/84: 123 pts, +9.63 SRS (W)
11/27/84: 102 pts, -12.34 SRS (L)
02/01/85: 121 pts, +16.80 SRS (W)
02/13/85: 88 pts, -10.14 SRS (L)
02/15/85: 109 pts, +1.45 SRS (W)
02/18/85: 94 pts, -12.53 SRS (L)
02/20/85: 110 pts, +9.64 SRS (W)
02/22/85: 102 pts, +4.73 SRS (W)
02/24/85: 108 pts, -1.83 SRS (L)
02/26/85: 103 pts, +11.80 SRS (W)
02/27/85: 100 pts, -15.30 SRS (L)
03/01/85: 115 pts, -5.62 SRS (L)
03/03/85: 93 pts, -22.20 SRS (L)
03/06/85: 94 pts, +8.38 SRS (W)
03/07/85: 122 pts, +13.73 SRS (W)
03/09/85: 111 pts, +8.50 SRS (W)
03/12/85: 108 pts, -5.52 SRS (L)
03/13/85: 105 pts, -11.52 SRS (L)
Avg without Dantley: 106.9 ppg, -2.52 SRS.
WITH Dantley: 110.0 ppg (+3.1), +0.76 SRS (+3.28).
13-14 (.481) record w/o, 28-27 (.509) record with.

’86
12/02/85: 103 pts, .474 TS%, 97.6 ORtg, -3.59 SRS (W)
01/11/86: 106 pts, .487 TS%, 102.8 ORtg, -4.11 SRS (L)
01/12/86: 106 pts, .565 TS%, 106.6 ORtg, +4.95 SRS (W)
01/14/86: 105 pts, .560 TS%, 101.1 ORtg, +8.11 SRS (W)
03/08/86: 90 pts, .461 TS%, 88.7 ORtg, -10.39 SRS (L)
04/12/86: 117 pts, .515 TS%, 110.4 ORtg, +21.89 SRS (W)
Avg without Dantley: 104.5 ppg, .510 TS%, 101.2 ORtg, +2.81 SRS.
WITH Dantley: 108.5 ppg (+4.0), .538 TS% (+2.8%), 104.4 ORtg (+3.2), -0.94 SRS (-3.75).
4-2 (.667) record w/o, 38-38 (.500) record with.

’87
01/07/87: 122 pts, .559 TS%, 117.9 ORtg, +2.58 SRS (W)
Avg WITH Dantley: 111.1 ppg (-10.9), .544 TS% (-1.5%), 109.1 ORtg (-8.8), +3.53 SRS (+0.95).
1-0 record w/o, 51-30 (.630) record with.

Average effect of having Dantley vs. not having him
NOT weighted for games played/missed *only two years data ('86 and '87)
+3.1 ppg
+0.7% TS%*
-2.8 ORtg*
+1.74 SRS
Weighted for games PLAYED
+3.1 ppg
+0.6% TS%*
-3.0 ORtg*
+2.12 SRS
Weighted for games MISSED
+2.7 ppg
+2.2 TS%*
+1.5 ORtg*
-0.28 SRS
41-73 (.360) record w/o him, 246-296 (.454) record with: avg +7.7 wins per 82-game season.

For whatever apparently individual statistical superiority Dantley has, he does not appear to have had a comparable level of impact on team success in his prime as Iverson did (Iverson's prime lasted longer, too).

This is great info trex. I've been talking about the context while evaluating Iverson's ts% and this is it. He did shoot a lot, but his teams required him to do it, and it was the best way to play with those kind of rosters.

Dantley doesn't have a team impact as big as his stats suggest because he's not a great spacer or playmaker.

Just wondering, could you see those stats for Dantley only for 87 and 88? I want to see if he had a better impact in those two years with the Pistons, because I believe he did.

Basketballefan · Post #54 » by **Basketballefan** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:18 am

Joao Saraiva wrote:I don't mind seeing Adrian Dantley getting in, I was thinking about for him right after Iverson. I think Dantley is an underrated player due to team results. Some people almost describe him getting away from the Pistons as a reason they won next year and I don't agree: Dantley played really solid basketball the entire year and ended up with great NBA finals.

I just wonder how many run-offs will Iverson lose. He had a ton more votes than Dantley for #49, for #50 and now he's about to lose to Dantley for #51. I don't really know if I like this kind of run off vote but it's necessary. I just don't think it's accurate, but I don't see an alternative of which I'm 100% sure. Should there be a limit of times a player goes into the run off?

It would not surprise me to see Ai lose the next 4-5 runoffs. Most of the non Ai voters still have guys they want in before him.

Post #55 » by **Texas Chuck** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:32 pm

Joao Saraiva wrote:
I just wonder how many run-offs will Iverson lose. He had a ton more votes than Dantley for #49, for #50 and now he's about to lose to Dantley for #51. I don't really know if I like this kind of run off vote but it's necessary. I just don't think it's accurate, but I don't see an alternative of which I'm 100% sure. Should there be a limit of times a player goes into the run off?

I think its fine. AI currently has several strong supporters during a stretch where there are lots of players who deserve consideration. The intitial votes have been spread pretty thin with a number of guys getting only 1 or 2 votes. And while AI has those core supporters its easy to see how the group as a whole might select someone else ahead of him. This happened to some other players much earlier in the project as well.

Sorry I was absent from this thread. Got busy with other stuff and probably would have gone with Cowens here which would have had no impact anyway. I'm going to abstain from this run-off because I don't feel totally confident in voting for either. If I had to, I'd probably take Iverson, but I admittedly have a bias against 80's SFs not named Larry Bird. Im generally underwhelmed with the lot of them.

ceiling raiser · Post #56 » by **ceiling raiser** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:22 pm

My vote is for Adrian Dantley. I'm still not convinced that he can be an impact defender, but I think he can fit within a team concept on that end. Moonbeam's post (here: viewtopic.php?p=41561763#p41561763) really resonated with me. The highlights:

Moonbeam wrote:But Dantley's contributions were not just on offense - he put in significant effort on defense in both 1987 and 1988.

Source: http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1988 ... he-celtics

Larry Bird, meanwhile, who has shot just 37 percent in five games, continues to say his rhythm is off, but he did offer this assessment: "The officiating has been different in the playoffs and I don't think it's fair to anybody. You prepare during an 82-game season and then it's completely different. It's a tough adjustment."

But also giving Bird trouble, and for the second consecutive year and equally unnoticed by most, is noted scorer Adrian Dantley.

"I've never seen him player harder on defense in my life," said Laimbeer. "He's working so hard. He just wants it so bad."

Source: http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/535/ ... ge-updated

Whatever the change, he was in for most of the crucial minutes Sunday, spinning, driving, bumping, and playing a defense that went unnoticed by many. Except Larry Bird, the guy he was covering. "Dantley did as good a job on Bird as Michael Cooper or Paul Pressey does," Celtics coach K.C. Jones said. "He was very tough."

And at times, even obstinate. Once in the first half when the Celtics brought in Darren Daye, Pistons coach Chuck Daly screamed to Dantley: "YOU GOT DAYE! LET SALLEY TAKE BIRD!"

And Dantley turned, scowl intact, and mouthed back, "I got Bird." And five seconds later, Daly signaled, never mind, you got Bird.

Source: http://articles.latimes.com/1988-06-08/ ... it-pistons

Dantley, a two-time NBA scoring champion, has always been known for his offense, but the Pistons say that he has concentrated on defense this season.

And Dantley's work ethic on defense was a key as the Pistons held the Lakers to 39.8% shooting from the floor.

"I've always played defense, but when people talk about me, they talk about my offense," Dantley said. "The last time I played this hard on defense was in the 1976 Olympics. Defense is how we've been winning all our games this year. We don't even think about offense."

Opponent Michael Cooper during the 1988 Finals: http://articles.philly.com/1988-06-12/s ... rs-defense

"His defense shocked me," said Cooper, who was an L.A. teammate of Dantley's for the 1978-79 season.

"He was never one to get his sneakers dirty on defense. Before, A.D. was about A.D. He was out to score his points. Now he's a team player. He's willing to sacrifice. He sees that the more you put into a team, the more you get out of it."

Dantley bought into Detroit's system and was very pivotal to their playoff success.

Great research overall Moonbeam, really appreciate you shedding some light on Dantley.

drza · Post #57 » by **drza** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:32 pm

VOTE ALLEN IVERSON

Interesting runoff. Dantley is the king of the box score efficiency based stats while Iverson is the pariah of those stats. But as I'm long on record saying, I think individual scoring efficiency is grossly overrated in most current analysis. My vote here is more pro Iverson than anti Dantley so I'll talk more about Iverson.

Iverson is another one like McGrady that doesn't show up well in a blanket sweep of his +\- stats, but upon further examination I see clear evidence of major value. In TMacs case he was hurt by lack of RAPM from his peak years, while in Iversons case it seems to be the unique composition of those Philly teams. tRex has done an outstanding job breaking down Iverson's huge effect on Philly with a WOWY approach that showed how much offensive impact he was having. The same thing shows up on a year by year perusal of AI's offensive RAPM. I Don't currently have access to Doc MJ's spreadsheet, but from memory AI's top 5 offensive RAPM scores were extremely high, like well higher than Paul Pierce type high (and this didn't even include iverson's peak season of 2001).

I'found this very interesting, because the assumption that high volume/lower efficiency scoring is a negative is what is most commonly held against Iverson in these types of conversations. But according to the 2 nonboxscore Impact approaches we have at our disposal, Iverson really WAS having mega positive offensive impact in Philly.

The flip side of the equation is that Iverson was measuring out very negative on defense in his Philly days. That also has to be taken into effect.

For me, I just feel like Iverson was clearly a better, more dynamic player than Dantley. I prefer his offense and ability to be the focal point all game every game, and on defense I don't think Dantley was good enough to bridge that gap.

Vote Iverson

Dipper 13 · Post #58 » by **Dipper 13** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:54 pm

(and this didn't even include iverson's peak season of 2001).

Does 2001 Prior Informed RAPM exist? I have not been able to find it anywhere.

Basketballefan · Post #59 » by **Basketballefan** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:13 pm

Notanoob wrote:Runoff vote : Adrian Dantley

One of the best scoring small forwards ever, with a truly incredible combination of scoring and efficiency, which blows away Iverson's scoring. Would be Finals MVP of the Piston's would-be threepeat. Underrated and unlucky.

Why play the what-if game though?

Post #60 » by **penbeast0** » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:58 am

Looks like Adrian Dantley wins the runoff.