RealGM Top 100 List #58

Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal

User avatar
Joao Saraiva
RealGM
Posts: 13,341
And1: 6,141
Joined: Feb 09, 2011
   

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #58 -- Elvin Hayes v. Vince Carter 

Post#41 » by Joao Saraiva » Mon Dec 8, 2014 3:34 am

Clyde Frazier wrote:So... worth mentioning: Carter has been pretty bad in elimination games throughout his career.

00: 5-17 FG, 39.1% TS, 15 PTS
01: 6-18, 45.5% TS, 20 PTS
05: 6-22, 42.2% TS, 23 PTS
06: 13-25, 57% TS, 33 PTS
07: 4-11, 41.7% TS, 11 PTS
2010: 6-15, 49.4% TS, 17 PTS
2013: 3-10, 40% TS, 8 PTS
2014: 4-12, 41.7% TS, 10 PTS

In 7 of his 8 career elimination games, he doesn't even come close to average efficiency. I'm not calling the guy a flat out choker or anything. He has a solid overall career resume, and was a dynamic player in his prime. Compared to hayes, though, this is a trend that would concern me. I don't really see a case for him over hayes who played better in the playoffs (although yes, still up and down), and ultimately played a major role in helping his team win a championship.


2000: Young Vince Carter had a good overall statline in those series with his rebounding and playmaking. He wasn't efficient scoring, and was definitely stopped arround the rim. Ewing did a good job. Despite Carter having almost 46%ts those series he shot 15-50 from the field. The elimination game doesn't mean much in a sweep.

2001: too much pressure on Vince and Allen Iverson on that game. He played ok with 7 rebounds and 9 assists on 2 TOs... his shot wasn't falling but the D was applying too much pressure on him.

2005: Not a good series by Vince Carter. Kidd couldn't get his shot going too and the team just wasn't deep to cover up for that. Elimination game doesn't mean that much, the series were already lost since the Nets got swept.

2006: Great series overall and he played well in that elimination game. The Heat were just too much for the Nets. Wade was on one of the most impressive runs ever in playoff history, Shaq did a solid job and the Nets didn't have anyone capable of stopping him, and even Antoine Walker's threes were going down.

2007 vs Cleveland: struggled the entire series while being defended many times by a young LeBron, but to be fair LeBron should win that matchup, in 2007 it was already clear who was the best player.

2010 vs Celtics: Really difficult series for VC but come on. Kobe Bryant and LeBron in that same year had some very difficult games against Boston themselves, and they were the two best players in the league. I really can't fault Vince Carter for not playing great vs Boston.

2013 and 2014 Carter was just old. He contributed well in 2014 from the bench, didn't do good in 2013. The alst game of the series was a blowout in 2014, so the entire team struggled to make anything against San Antonio.

He lacks great performances in those type of games but maybe only in 2001 or 2010 he could have made more impact in order to make his team go trough. Still he was playing great defenses (more in 2010). 2007 is a difficult analysis, I feel he could have done more but going against LeBron wasn't easy too.
“These guys have been criticized the last few years for not getting to where we’re going, but I’ve always said that the most important thing in sports is to keep trying. Let this be an example of what it means to say it’s never over.” - Jerry Sloan
trex_8063
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 12,511
And1: 8,153
Joined: Feb 24, 2013
     

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #58 

Post#42 » by trex_8063 » Mon Dec 8, 2014 5:52 am

penbeast0 wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:Regarding Bosh, Hornacek, and Sikma.

Feels a bit too early for all of them, particularly Hornacek. I def think he's a historically underrated player, but all the same I have a hard time seeing him any higher than maybe somewhere in the 90's (edit: and honestly I think it would be acceptable if he didn't make the top 100 at all, though I def think he should be in the discussion once past ~90).

Bosh and Sikma don't feel like 50-60ish players to me, though perhaps not too far outside of that. I'm more comfortable with them in the 70+ range, though, tbh. I'm not really inclined to bring them up while guys like Hayes, Lanier, Wilkins, McAdoo, Manu, Carter, Unseld, (and for me: Cousy and Arizin) are still on the table.

And there are several others who I think are at least very debatable over Bosh or Sikma (e.g. Nate Thurmond, Chris Webber, Sid Moncrief, maybe Tony Parker or Carmelo Anthony).


How about guys like Larry Nance and Shawn Marion?


Shawn Marion is a guy I know I am guilty of short-changing in the past (he doesn't appear in the top 100 on RealGM's last list, either). More recently, however, I've come to believe he's well-deserving of a spot, I would say arguably even top 75-ish:
Excellent defender who could basically handle 1 thru 4. Decent help defender, too.
He's been a very good off-ball scorer: always moving, excellent finisher (on a cut to the rim or in transition), cleaning up on put-backs, good FT-shooter, not a bad outside shooter, has that strange little runner that he's used to good effect over the years....
He's been an excellent rebounder, especially given how much time he spends playing at the SF: 6x finished in top 10 in rpg (twice in the top 3).
Not much for handles or play-making, but he plays within his game so well. He seems to instinctively know his strengths and weaknesses, and simply avoids making mistakes (avg. just 2.3 tov per 100 possessions for his career).
And very portable: has been a key figure with multiple casts, often very successful teams, too.
At this point he has decent longevity, as well: although his prime wasn't overly long, he is now in his 16th season, and once again appears to be a starter.

Larry Nance likely belongs relatively close to Marion on an all-time list: somewhat more efficient scorer, better help defender, though somewhat lesser (or at least less versatile) man-defender, and def a lesser rebounder.
Longevity is pretty close: Marion has the significantly longer career, but a much higher proportion of "role player years"; Nance actually has the longer prime.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
User avatar
Moonbeam
Forum Mod - Blazers
Forum Mod - Blazers
Posts: 10,216
And1: 5,062
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Location: Sydney, Australia
     

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #58 -- Elvin Hayes v. Vince Carter 

Post#43 » by Moonbeam » Mon Dec 8, 2014 7:24 am

I thought life would get easier now that all grades have been finalized except for supplementary exams. Apparently not! Students did very well overall, but there are so many wanting to appeal their final mark. Blech!

I would have likely cast a vote for Sam Jones again, but it looks like he's not getting any support. Why is that?

On to some other tidbits - it's good to see Rodman getting some consideration, but I'm not sure he should get in before Nate Thurmond. flpiii had a great post illustrating how impactful Thurmond was on the defensive end. Yes, his efficiency woes are a drawback, but Rodman wasn't exactly lighting it up with scoring himself.

I'm glad to hear some mentions of the likes of Horace Grant (who I'll likely consider before we hit 70) and Larry Nance, among others.

As for this runoff, I'm going to go for Elvin Hayes. I feel he was more successful in implementing his strengths to postseason success than Vince. I don't have the numbers for Hayes yet, but looking at Carter in the playoffs, he sports a career postseason Score+ of -0.228 and a career postseason O+ of 3.912. These are quite ho hum for someone whose advantage over Hayes clearly comes only on the offensive end.
User avatar
Quotatious
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 16,999
And1: 11,143
Joined: Nov 15, 2013

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #58 -- Elvin Hayes v. Vince Carter 

Post#44 » by Quotatious » Mon Dec 8, 2014 12:02 pm

Elvin Hayes (5) - Quotatious, trex_8063, Clyde Frazier, RayBan-Sematra, Moonbeam

Vince Carter (5) - ronnymac2, tsherkin, RSCD3_, Joao Saraiva, SactoKingsFan


Still a tie.
User avatar
Joao Saraiva
RealGM
Posts: 13,341
And1: 6,141
Joined: Feb 09, 2011
   

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #58 -- Elvin Hayes v. Vince Carter 

Post#45 » by Joao Saraiva » Mon Dec 8, 2014 4:05 pm

Quotatious wrote:Elvin Hayes (5) - Quotatious, trex_8063, Clyde Frazier, RayBan-Sematra, Moonbeam

Vince Carter (5) - ronnymac2, tsherkin, RSCD3_, Joao Saraiva, SactoKingsFan


Still a tie.


I think it would be fair for Elvin Hayes to get in at this point. He has been voted a lot more in the last few spots than Vince Carter...

Unless someone is still going to cast a vote.
“These guys have been criticized the last few years for not getting to where we’re going, but I’ve always said that the most important thing in sports is to keep trying. Let this be an example of what it means to say it’s never over.” - Jerry Sloan
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 30,036
And1: 9,703
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #58 -- Elvin Hayes v. Vince Carter 

Post#46 » by penbeast0 » Mon Dec 8, 2014 4:24 pm

I'll vote if my vote is needed when I count them. I don't have a strong opinion on this one so if there is an edge when I count votes tonight, I won't push it back to a tie.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 89,911
And1: 29,815
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #58 -- Elvin Hayes v. Vince Carter 

Post#47 » by tsherkin » Mon Dec 8, 2014 4:52 pm

Joao Saraiva wrote:
Quotatious wrote:Elvin Hayes (5) - Quotatious, trex_8063, Clyde Frazier, RayBan-Sematra, Moonbeam

Vince Carter (5) - ronnymac2, tsherkin, RSCD3_, Joao Saraiva, SactoKingsFan


Still a tie.


I think it would be fair for Elvin Hayes to get in at this point. He has been voted a lot more in the last few spots than Vince Carter...

Unless someone is still going to cast a vote.


This isn't legit reasoning. Also, Vince caught a vote or two waaaay earlier than Hayes if you're looking for an arbitrary reason to favor one over the other.
magicmerl
Analyst
Posts: 3,226
And1: 831
Joined: Jul 11, 2013

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #58 -- Elvin Hayes v. Vince Carter 

Post#48 » by magicmerl » Mon Dec 8, 2014 9:13 pm

I'm going to vote for Elvin Hayes here. I'm not a fan of the volume scoring on low efficiency, even dispite his era. But his interior defense and rebounding look pretty elite and he was part of a championship calibre interior defense on the bullets.
User avatar
Joao Saraiva
RealGM
Posts: 13,341
And1: 6,141
Joined: Feb 09, 2011
   

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #58 -- Elvin Hayes v. Vince Carter 

Post#49 » by Joao Saraiva » Mon Dec 8, 2014 10:33 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Joao Saraiva wrote:
Quotatious wrote:Elvin Hayes (5) - Quotatious, trex_8063, Clyde Frazier, RayBan-Sematra, Moonbeam

Vince Carter (5) - ronnymac2, tsherkin, RSCD3_, Joao Saraiva, SactoKingsFan


Still a tie.


I think it would be fair for Elvin Hayes to get in at this point. He has been voted a lot more in the last few spots than Vince Carter...

Unless someone is still going to cast a vote.


This isn't legit reasoning. Also, Vince caught a vote or two waaaay earlier than Hayes if you're looking for an arbitrary reason to favor one over the other.


Ok ok I was just wondering about some way on how that draw could go away if it ended up like that on the run off vote. I still voted for Carter so I still hope he gets in ;)
“These guys have been criticized the last few years for not getting to where we’re going, but I’ve always said that the most important thing in sports is to keep trying. Let this be an example of what it means to say it’s never over.” - Jerry Sloan
tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 89,911
And1: 29,815
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #58 -- Elvin Hayes v. Vince Carter 

Post#50 » by tsherkin » Mon Dec 8, 2014 10:35 pm

Joao Saraiva wrote:Ok ok I was just wondering about some way on how that draw could go away if it ended up like that on the run off vote. I still voted for Carter so I still hope he gets in ;)


We'll see who gets the most support, and then they'll win. I think Hayes is ahead by one at the moment, so if he wins, he wins. ;)
trex_8063
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 12,511
And1: 8,153
Joined: Feb 24, 2013
     

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #58 -- Elvin Hayes v. Vince Carter 

Post#51 » by trex_8063 » Tue Dec 9, 2014 4:12 am

I think we're past time to call it and move on to #59, no?
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 30,036
And1: 9,703
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #58 -- Elvin Hayes v. Vince Carter 

Post#52 » by penbeast0 » Tue Dec 9, 2014 4:25 am

Calling it for the Big E
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.

Return to Player Comparisons