Higher peak Derrick Rose or Chauncey Billups?

[PaulieWal]

Well my point is that it's ridiculous to say that you'd take 04-09 Billups over an uninjured 10-15 Rose without knowing how good Rose would have become. Rose might have had multiple rings by now if he had never gotten hurt.

In what universe is Rose winning multiple rings? I don't see them getting past the Heat (Cavs last year) and even if they did by some miracle the Bulls did they would lose to any of the past 4 WC winners.

Well the 2012 Bulls were an elite team and were only going to get better. Noah and Gibson became better players, they added Butler, and Rose would have gotten better. Plus, if they did win the title in 2012 (which they probably had a decent chance of doing, considering the Heat needed 7 games to beat the Celtics), they probably would have added ring-chasers.

That's a whole bunch of "ifs" to reach to the conclusion that Rose might have had multiple titles if he didn't get hurt. Well if Bosh and Wade didn't get hurt Heat might have 3-peated and wouldn't have struggled as much in the playoffs.

[LJM]

Thunder being weak is revisionist history. They beat veteran teams, including the Spurs who were rolling through everybody. The Thunder were favored in the finals if i recall.

The Bulls chances of beating a better Heat team, and THEN a great Thunder team, would have been quite slim.

That series was more than rigged.

Popovich, Manu, Parker and Duncan have only complained about officiating 1 time in all their careers officially. That was the one time.

Watch the game. that thug perkins was out there trying to injure everyone on every play and didnt' get called 1 time for a foul. It was a joke. It was also the only time in 19 years that spurs lost 4 times in a row.

That was as rigged as Mavs- Miami in 06.

[PaulieWal]

Bulls lose in '12 to the Thunder? Doubtful.

You've got peak Rose, prime Noah/Deng/Taj, barely past-prime Boozer, Korver VS WB/Harden/Ibaka/Durant (all of whom not nearly as good as they are now, especially Ibaka/Harden). Essentially, young pups vs a prime contender with a top 10 offense and #1 defense.

Stop over-rating the West. Yes it's tough out there, but no need to embellish. The '11 and '12 Bulls, for example, did better vs. the West than the East, believe it or not. They also had the best record vs top 10 teams, I can think (might have been top 5).

Um...Rose was young too and KD would have easily been the best player in that series. 2012 Rose and WB are also pretty comparable.

Code: Select all

Rk              Player  G   MP  FG%  3P%  2P% eFG%  FT% TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PTS
1         Derrick Rose 39 35.3 .435 .312 .475 .473 .812 3.4 7.9 0.9 0.7 3.1 21.8
2    Russell Westbrook 66 35.3 .457 .316 .482 .481 .823 4.6 5.5 1.7 0.3 3.6 23.6

Code: Select all

Rk              Player  PER  TS% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS WS/48 OBPM DBPM BPM
1         Derrick Rose 23.0 .532  5.3 40.3  1.4  1.4 12.9 30.5 6.0  .211  5.5 -0.6 4.9
2    Russell Westbrook 22.9 .538  7.4 29.8  2.5  0.7 14.2 32.7 7.9  .163  3.7 -0.5 3.2


The Thunder would have overwhelmed the Bulls with their talent in that series IMO if they did manage to beat the Heat which I don't think they would have anyway.

[Keller61]

In what universe is Rose winning multiple rings? I don't see them getting past the Heat (Cavs last year) and even if they did by some miracle the Bulls did they would lose to any of the past 4 WC winners.

Well the 2012 Bulls were an elite team and were only going to get better. Noah and Gibson became better players, they added Butler, and Rose would have gotten better. Plus, if they did win the title in 2012 (which they probably had a decent chance of doing, considering the Heat needed 7 games to beat the Celtics), they probably would have added ring-chasers.

That's a whole bunch of "ifs" to reach to the conclusion that Rose might have had multiple titles if he didn't get hurt. Well if Bosh and Wade didn't get hurt Heat might have 3-peated and wouldn't have struggled as much in the playoffs.

"Might" sort of goes along with "if". But I don't think it is an outlandish suggestion. The Bulls never even had Rose and Noah at their peaks at the same time, let alone Butler.

[PaulieWal]

Well the 2012 Bulls were an elite team and were only going to get better. Noah and Gibson became better players, they added Butler, and Rose would have gotten better. Plus, if they did win the title in 2012 (which they probably had a decent chance of doing, considering the Heat needed 7 games to beat the Celtics), they probably would have added ring-chasers.

That's a whole bunch of "ifs" to reach to the conclusion that Rose might have had multiple titles if he didn't get hurt. Well if Bosh and Wade didn't get hurt Heat might have 3-peated and wouldn't have struggled as much in the playoffs.

"Might" sort of goes along with "if". But I don't think it is an outlandish suggestion. The Bulls never even had Rose and Noah at their peaks at the same time, let alone Butler.

Okay, but then that's just a fantasy scenario. Might as well add if LeBron and Wade teamed up in 09 they would have had a lot more than 2 titles.

You can't bring these kind of points to a discussion like this in which you align the primes of different players, change their injury trajectories etc. and then say X "might" have happened.

Anyway, I don't see the point of discussing this "might" anymore.

[Keller61]

That's a whole bunch of "ifs" to reach to the conclusion that Rose might have had multiple titles if he didn't get hurt. Well if Bosh and Wade didn't get hurt Heat might have 3-peated and wouldn't have struggled as much in the playoffs.

"Might" sort of goes along with "if". But I don't think it is an outlandish suggestion. The Bulls never even had Rose and Noah at their peaks at the same time, let alone Butler.

Okay, but then that's just a fantasy scenario. Might as well add if LeBron and Wade teamed up in 09 they would have had a lot more than 2 titles.

You can't bring these kind of points to a discussion like this in which you align the primes of different players, change their injury trajectories etc. and then say X "might" have happened.

Anyway, I don't see the point of discussing this "might" anymore.

Well it started with a poster saying he would still take Billups over Rose even if Rose had never been injured from 10-15, which is the hypothetical scenario I'm responding to.

[LJM]

loser danica rose on the pistons and they don't win in 04. It's as simple as that.

[cpower]

Pretty close but I give the edge to Mr. Big Shot

He was a much better playoff performer , look at his numbers:
04 Final
21/3/5/ on 0.70 TS!
09 Semifinal
21/4/7 on 0.70 TS!
09 first round
23/4/7 on 0.74 TS!


11 Rose can't score efficiently,at least not on Billups level, given his role as a primary scorer, that's not getting it done.

[BullBearBidness]

Pretty close but I give the edge to Mr. Big Shot

He was a much better playoff performer , look at his numbers:
04 Final
21/3/5/ on 0.70 TS!
09 Semifinal
21/4/7 on 0.70 TS!
09 first round
23/4/7 on 0.74 TS!


11 Rose can't score efficiently,at least not on Billups level, given his role as a primary scorer, that's not getting it done.

Rose was never able to pick his own spots the way Billups could in a SL with 3 other guys who could create offense. Neither Deng or Boozer (as a Bull) could score in isolation, even as well as prime Tayshaun, let alone prime Rip/Sheed/Melo/JR Smith.

Admittedly, Billups was simply a better shooter and better at picking his spots, but I think those numbers you posted show an exaggerated efficiency difference between the two, because of the quality of their teammates on offense.

[Cyrusman122000]

i'll just say this. Rose may have peaked higher, but i'd gladly take Billups from 04-09 over Rose from 10-15 even if he wasn't injured. Chauncy was just such a great leader, floor general, clutch, such high Basketball IQ, his impact was underrated, and under appreciated IMO. One of my favorite PGs

This is the answer, QFT. My username is literally Chauncey's nickname, but I cannot deny from a pure talent standpoint Rose has the edge. Doesn't mean I'd take home over Chauncey, because with Chauncey I'm getting a leader and an elite game manager who will hold the locker room together and hold everyone to a standard.

It's no coincidence that the Nuggets made it to the WCF (and put up a decent fight against the eventual champ Lakers) the year Chauncey arrived in Denver. Prior to that they had Iverson (a player who's game is very similar to Rose, high volume scorer) and Melo, and yet they were a perennial 1st round exit team. Swap out Iverson for Billups and they have the most success they would have in near a decade. And it's no coincidence that the Pistons completely fell apart after he was traded...

And by the way, Rose has never had a playoffs as good as Chauncey's in 08-09. Rose may have the edge in pure raw numbers, but in terms of efficiency and impact that post season run is better than any of Rose's.

This is a very important and under rated strength Billups has that simply can't show up in any stat sheet. He's one of the best locker room players i've ever watched. I mean heck just look at what happened to the Nuggets when they swapped Iverson for Billups, and Melo was playing terrific during that whole 09 run with Billups.You could tell he had taken on that winner mentality even if it was only temporarily, because he definitely hasn't had it this whole career. Even Jr Smith had one of his best seasons.

[theonlyclutch]

Pretty close but I give the edge to Mr. Big Shot

He was a much better playoff performer , look at his numbers:
04 Final
21/3/5/ on 0.70 TS!
09 Semifinal
21/4/7 on 0.70 TS!
09 first round
23/4/7 on 0.74 TS!


11 Rose can't score efficiently,at least not on Billups level, given his role as a primary scorer, that's not getting it done.

Rose was never able to pick his own spots the way Billups could in a SL with 3 other guys who could create offense. Neither Deng or Boozer (as a Bull) could score in isolation, even as well as prime Tayshaun, let alone prime Rip/Sheed/Melo/JR Smith.

Huh?

Deng in 06-07 posted his highest volume and most efficient season w/o Rose, 18.8 ppg @ 56.0% TS, that's rather comparable to Rip, let alone Prince

Boozer was just a year removed from putting 19.5 ppg @ 60% TS in 34 MPG w/ the Jazz, he was borderline elite in the PnR in conjunction with Deron, both these guys have proven to be able to score perfectly fine without Rose's presence...

[Rerisen]

Pretty close but I give the edge to Mr. Big Shot

He was a much better playoff performer , look at his numbers:
04 Final
21/3/5/ on 0.70 TS!
09 Semifinal
21/4/7 on 0.70 TS!
09 first round
23/4/7 on 0.74 TS!


11 Rose can't score efficiently,at least not on Billups level, given his role as a primary scorer, that's not getting it done.

Rose was never able to pick his own spots the way Billups could in a SL with 3 other guys who could create offense. Neither Deng or Boozer (as a Bull) could score in isolation, even as well as prime Tayshaun, let alone prime Rip/Sheed/Melo/JR Smith.

Huh?

Deng in 06-07 posted his highest volume and most efficient season w/o Rose, 18.8 ppg @ 56.0% TS, that's rather comparable to Rip, let alone Prince

Boozer was just a year removed from putting 19.5 ppg @ 60% TS in 34 MPG w/ the Jazz, both these guys have proven to be able to score perfectly fine without Rose's presence...

Boozer and Deng were 2 of the higher assisted 17+ scorers in the league that year. Boozer had already began his decline, which would only get precipitously worse with the Bulls, helped along by 2 bad ankle sprains that year, which resulted in producing a meager ~15 PER and dreadful efficiency the last roughly 50 games of that season including playoffs. And Deng has never been a guy that could get his own shot well.

There was a good reason Rose accounted for like 45% of the Bulls offense that year scoring+assists.

[BullBearBidness]

They know. Agenda.