Artis Gilmore

[penbeast0]

Sven was Reggie Evans only much and appreciably slower. He had few skills other than size and rebounding but had a real knack for the boards. Neither Shaq nor Dwight Howard ever surpassed Reggie Evans's average career rebound percentage of 21.9 even in their best years. Nater was similar (ABA rebound percentage of 22.5, career 21.4).

[70sFan]

I agree with SinceGatlingWasARookie. We need to measure Gilmore strengh on other physical centers (Moses, Dawkins, Lanier, Rollins, maybe Eaton or even Akeem?). With some videos we can get to know how much stronger he was than rest of the league. Does anybody have any tape of Bulls/Spurs against this guys?

[CaliBullsFan]

My questions are:
1. What year is his peak in NBA and ABA (and overall)?
2. How good was he in NBA?
3. How good was he in defense? Was he a top 10 defensive centers ever?
4. Would he be the best center today?
6. How good did he defended guys like Kareem, Lanier, Moses, Hakeem?
5. How good could he defend Shaq and was he strong enough to fight with him for position?

1. 75 was his best year
2. Excellent in the NBA
3. Without thinking about it too hard probably just outside the top 10 all time defensively
4. Yes there is no cxenter in the NBA today that is in the same universe as even the mid 30s Spurs Gilmore
5. I would say pretty good except vs Hakeem who is way too quick
6. No one(except Wilt) is strong enough to fight for position with Shaq

[penbeast0]

I'm a huge Gilmore fan but I think you are overestimating the impact of Spurs Gilmore. I would rather have current Dwight Howard than Spurs era Gilmore; they bring a lot of the same strengths but Dwight is a lot more mobile though not as fundamentally sound.

[70sFan]

I'm a huge Gilmore fan but I think you are overestimating the impact of Spurs Gilmore. I would rather have current Dwight Howard than Spurs era Gilmore; they bring a lot of the same strengths but Dwight is a lot more mobile though not as fundamentally sound.

Who do you think is better player during their peak: Dwight or Artis?

[penbeast0]

I think Dwight was more impactful at his peak, but I think Gilmore was the better player. Why? (a)They are reasonably close talent wise with Artis being capable of more and having better mental grasp of the game but (b) the Orlando offense Van Gundy designed plays to Dwight's strengths as much as any offense I've ever seen and so he had a bigger impact because of his situation, rather than his skillset.

[70sFan]

Ok, thanks for reply. Sounds very interesting.
You know Artis game well so maybe you could tell me how good of a low-post defender he was during his prime? How good did he guard Kareem, Malone, Lanier and Akeem? Which type of players made him troubles?
Also, how good do you think would he guard Shaq? Gilmore himself said that he could hold his own and many players praises his strengh but I don't see him as the best option vs Shaq because he doesn't look psychical post defender, but still I saw only a few of his games so maybe thats not good conclusion.

[70sFan]

I find another very interesting video
http://www.fuzzymemories.tv/index.php?c=1093&m=xx1970xx#videoclip-3730
You must watch every 4 parts.
Bulls vs Bullets (defending champs) from 1979. Unfourtanetly there is only first quarter available. Some nice plays from legends such as Hayes and Dandridge and of course great matchup: Unseld vs Gilmore. Look at great up and under by Gilmore. He completely fooled Wes. Also his offensive rebounds after missed free throw. Here you could see his legendary strengh. Wes was very short for a center (probably only 6'5-6'6) but very strong and heavy. Artis throw him around like a child. Also good "skyhook" and amazing block on Dandridge. Here Gilmore looks close to what we've seen on ABA videos. Enjoy

[70sFan]

After many researches I decide to bump this thread. I need some informations.

Firstly, does anybody have Artis stats against other great centers like Kareem, Walton, Hakeem, Sikma, Parish, Lanier, Unseld, Moses? I'd like to see also their stats against A-Train.

I ask for stats because I find something very interesting: after watching as much tape of NBA Gilmore as I found, I came with conclusion that nobody could stop him one on one in the post when he wanted to score. Really nobody. He had sometimes troubles with passing out of doubles, but when he wanted to score, he was unstoppable. This create me question: why didn't he become more dominant offensive player? For example, he's clearly better post player than Howard (who is sometimes compared with him). He was also amazing finisher. Why didn't he become 25+ scorer?

Beside stats, I really want to see more of him against other all time greats. Do we have some Spura vs Rockets games from mid 80s? Or maybe Spurs vs Sixers? How about Wizards, or Blazers, or Celtics against Bulls/Spurs? I would love to see something like that.

Last question. When Gilmore was at his biggest during his career? I know he was clearly heavier in NBA than during his first ABA seasons, but I'd like to see more precise numbers.

[wojoaderge]

Sven was Reggie Evans only much and appreciably slower. He had few skills other than size and rebounding but had a real knack for the boards. Neither Shaq nor Dwight Howard ever surpassed Reggie Evans's average career rebound percentage of 21.9 even in their best years. Nater was similar (ABA rebound percentage of 22.5, career 21.4).

He had a great hook shot

[Ol Roy]

This story from Kurt Rambis is hilarious.

Watch on YouTube

[migya]

This story from Kurt Rambis is hilarious.

Watch on YouTube

Watched a few of Byron's show, not bad.

[70sFan]

What a throwback for me, it's such an old thread. I got to know the A-Train back then, it's been such a journey since then. I even contacted Mr Gilmore once by e-mail, what a wild 10 years.

[Top10alltime]

Thanks, so it looks like ABA Gilmore was better defender. So when he came to NBA he wasn't great defender anymore?

He was still great defensively in his first season in the NBA. Anchored the second best defense in the league, and generally made a huge impact on that Bulls team (they won just 24 games in 1975-76, improved to 44 wins in 1976-77 and made the playoffs, where Gilmore certainly held his own against peak Walton).

I have Gilmore in my top 35 all-time, and the 9th best center. His 5-year stretch as a defender in the ABA is one of the better defensive primes of all-time, he was a super efficient scorer capable of scoring 20+ points on a consistent basis, great rebounder, fantastic longevity. I don't think he was much worse than Ewing (they are very comparable to be honest).

Top 10 defensive player of all-time? He's right there. Russell, Olajuwon, Robinson, Duncan, Garnett, Ben Wallace, Ewing, Mutombo, Thurmond, Gilmore, Mourning, Howard and Eaton are clearly above anyone else as far as defense is concerned, in my opinion, so it's really the top 13. Hard to say which three guys would miss the top 10.

How about Kareem and Wilt? I think in their defensive prime they could held their own against anybody. Were they too inconsisten to be in the group of the greatest?
Back to Artis, I haven't seen any of his Bulls games, in Spurs he looks a little like Shaq on defense for me - strong and imposing but didn't like to go outside and not super mobile (I know he's huge).
Also do you have his numbers vs best centers of his era and vice versa? I have Kareems stats, but nothing more from this era (couldn't find Waltons numbers from 77 series).

Was terrible at everything outside of rim protection. Wilt was a little better at everything else, but rim protection is like 80-90% of their defensive impact.

I'll let Wilt go, cause he played in the 60s. I can't not punish Kareem for that though, and even then he wasn't all that great rim protector... Giannis might be a better defender honestly.

[70sFan]

He was still great defensively in his first season in the NBA. Anchored the second best defense in the league, and generally made a huge impact on that Bulls team (they won just 24 games in 1975-76, improved to 44 wins in 1976-77 and made the playoffs, where Gilmore certainly held his own against peak Walton).

I have Gilmore in my top 35 all-time, and the 9th best center. His 5-year stretch as a defender in the ABA is one of the better defensive primes of all-time, he was a super efficient scorer capable of scoring 20+ points on a consistent basis, great rebounder, fantastic longevity. I don't think he was much worse than Ewing (they are very comparable to be honest).

Top 10 defensive player of all-time? He's right there. Russell, Olajuwon, Robinson, Duncan, Garnett, Ben Wallace, Ewing, Mutombo, Thurmond, Gilmore, Mourning, Howard and Eaton are clearly above anyone else as far as defense is concerned, in my opinion, so it's really the top 13. Hard to say which three guys would miss the top 10.

How about Kareem and Wilt? I think in their defensive prime they could held their own against anybody. Were they too inconsisten to be in the group of the greatest?
Back to Artis, I haven't seen any of his Bulls games, in Spurs he looks a little like Shaq on defense for me - strong and imposing but didn't like to go outside and not super mobile (I know he's huge).
Also do you have his numbers vs best centers of his era and vice versa? I have Kareems stats, but nothing more from this era (couldn't find Waltons numbers from 77 series).

Was terrible at everything outside of rim protection. Wilt was a little better at everything else, but rim protection is like 80-90% of their defensive impact.

I'll let Wilt go, cause he played in the 60s. I can't not punish Kareem for that though, and even then he wasn't all that great rim protector... Giannis might be a better defender honestly.

Can't agree with that. For once, Kareem peaked defensively only a few years after Wilt and it's not true that the game was changing so rapidly.

Secondly, Kareem in the Bucks was excellent defender all-around. He had very underrated motor, could move extremely well and was intimidating man defender.

[kcktiny]

I can't not punish Kareem for that though, and even then he wasn't all that great rim protector

From 1970-71 to 1974-75, over 5 seasons, Milwaukee lead the NBA on defense in lowest 2pt FG% allowed at 42.7%. Alcindor/Jabbar played 43 min/g over that time, blocked 495 shots (measured in 1973-74 and 1974-75, more than half the team's total blocked shots), no one else on the Bucks blocked even 100 shots over those two seasons.

From 1973-74 to 1979-80 (7 seasons) Jabbar blocked 1875 shots, no one else in the league blocked more than 1396. Up to 1979-80 the record for blocks in a single season was 393 (Elmore Smith 1973-74). But the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th most blocks in a single season up and to that time were by Jabbar (338, 316, 283, and 280).

He was also named to the all-defensive team 11 times, all-defensive 1st team 5 times. He is absolutely one of the greatest defensive Cs in league history.

Gilmore's first decade in the NBA (1976-77 to 1985-86) he was 4th in the league in total blocks (1623). Only Jabbar, Tree Rollins, and George Johnson had more. Pretty impressive considering he did not get to the NBA until age 27. His 6 seasons with Chicago he blocked 1018 shots. No other Bulls player had more than 345. His 5 seasons with San Antonio he blocked 700 shots. No other Spurs player had more than 186.

[Top10alltime]

How about Kareem and Wilt? I think in their defensive prime they could held their own against anybody. Were they too inconsisten to be in the group of the greatest?
Back to Artis, I haven't seen any of his Bulls games, in Spurs he looks a little like Shaq on defense for me - strong and imposing but didn't like to go outside and not super mobile (I know he's huge).
Also do you have his numbers vs best centers of his era and vice versa? I have Kareems stats, but nothing more from this era (couldn't find Waltons numbers from 77 series).

Was terrible at everything outside of rim protection. Wilt was a little better at everything else, but rim protection is like 80-90% of their defensive impact.

I'll let Wilt go, cause he played in the 60s. I can't not punish Kareem for that though, and even then he wasn't all that great rim protector... Giannis might be a better defender honestly.

Can't agree with that. For once, Kareem peaked defensively only a few years after Wilt and it's not true that the game was changing so rapidly.

Secondly, Kareem in the Bucks was excellent defender all-around. He had very underrated motor, could move extremely well and was intimidating man defender.

Wilt probably peaked defensively around 1964. Kareem peaked defensively more than a decade after (1974). And the game was changing. But for Wilt, I'd have KG, Duncan, Hakeem, and Russell as LOCKS over him defensively, and then Drob, Nate, and even Draymond could be above defensively. So he could be top 5-8 defensively, (haven't studied Artis, Ben, or Mutombo enough to make a conclusion). Kareem might not be top 20 defensively.

From film available, Kareem in Bucks wasn't even having that good of all these attributes you listed. Kareem was OK all-around ig, but he was only elite at rim protection (notice elite, not ATG).

[70sFan]

Was terrible at everything outside of rim protection. Wilt was a little better at everything else, but rim protection is like 80-90% of their defensive impact.

I'll let Wilt go, cause he played in the 60s. I can't not punish Kareem for that though, and even then he wasn't all that great rim protector... Giannis might be a better defender honestly.

Can't agree with that. For once, Kareem peaked defensively only a few years after Wilt and it's not true that the game was changing so rapidly.

Secondly, Kareem in the Bucks was excellent defender all-around. He had very underrated motor, could move extremely well and was intimidating man defender.

Wilt probably peaked defensively around 1964. Kareem peaked defensively more than a decade after (1974). And the game was changing. But for Wilt, I'd have KG, Duncan, Hakeem, and Russell as LOCKS over him defensively, and then Drob, Nate, and even Draymond could be above defensively. So he could be top 5-8 defensively, (haven't studied Artis, Ben, or Mutombo enough to make a conclusion). Kareem might not be top 20 defensively.

From film available, Kareem in Bucks wasn't even having that good of all these attributes you listed. Kareem was OK all-around ig, but he was only elite at rim protection (notice elite, not ATG).

Eh, Kareem's defensive peak can be debated as early as 1971 and I definitely wouldn't say that Wilt changed drastically from 1964 to 1968. The difference is definitely smaller than a decade.

I don't have the time to go deep into Kareem's defensive abilities discussion, but you can create a separate thread and I will come back to that at some point.

[Top10alltime]

Can't agree with that. For once, Kareem peaked defensively only a few years after Wilt and it's not true that the game was changing so rapidly.

Secondly, Kareem in the Bucks was excellent defender all-around. He had very underrated motor, could move extremely well and was intimidating man defender.

Wilt probably peaked defensively around 1964. Kareem peaked defensively more than a decade after (1974). And the game was changing. But for Wilt, I'd have KG, Duncan, Hakeem, and Russell as LOCKS over him defensively, and then Drob, Nate, and even Draymond could be above defensively. So he could be top 5-8 defensively, (haven't studied Artis, Ben, or Mutombo enough to make a conclusion). Kareem might not be top 20 defensively.

From film available, Kareem in Bucks wasn't even having that good of all these attributes you listed. Kareem was OK all-around ig, but he was only elite at rim protection (notice elite, not ATG).

Eh, Kareem's defensive peak can be debated as early as 1971 and I definitely wouldn't say that Wilt changed drastically from 1964 to 1968. The difference is definitely smaller than a decade.

I don't have the time to go deep into Kareem's defensive abilities discussion, but you can create a separate thread and I will come back to that at some point.

I think Kareem's defensive peak is 1974, and Wilt's defensive peak is 1964. So that's more than a decade.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2474020 (The thread).

Anyways, may Christ bless you, have a blessed day!

[penbeast0]

Was terrible at everything outside of rim protection. Wilt was a little better at everything else, but rim protection is like 80-90% of their defensive impact.

I'll let Wilt go, cause he played in the 60s. I can't not punish Kareem for that though, and even then he wasn't all that great rim protector... Giannis might be a better defender honestly.

Not sure if you are talking about Artis still or switched onto Kareem, which is what it seems like. Either way, it's incorrect when you are talking about their earlier, more mobile days. Artis's strength made him a good post defender, he had a strong base as well as great height and decent, not great mobility, unlike many of the true 7 footers. His main problem was that he was a nice person rather than being an intimidating or aggressively physical defender. Many of the guys you think of as great defenders had a real mean streak, Artis's big flaw was his passivity.

Kareem in the 70s had good lateral mobility as well as his great length. He was more cerebral than Artis and more willing to get into people though less strong; something that got less and less true as you move into the 80s and he becomes a finesse player. His main weakness defensively was that he never really was a talker or quarterback on the floor like many great defensive centers. Then in his second decade, he got significantly slower and less physical (most players bulk up and lean more as they get older) and his defense declined a lot.