RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #31

[penbeast0]

... Barry is the best shooting and passing wing in the league in his time which is a highly valuable combo to structurally build an offense around

I don't agree. Without thinking too hard, I'd take Lou Hudson over him for shooting in his NBA years, Roger Brown for shooting in the ABA; for passing it's tougher because when Barry wanted to he could be an outstanding passer but Earl Monroe, Havlicek, ABA and after Billy Cunningham, and maybe Warren Jabali over him for passing since Barry would get tunnel vision a lot more often.

Without 75, Barry wouldn't even sniff my top 50, with it, he is a puzzlement.

[Dr Positivity]

I can get behind supporting Bob Davies in this project, he has 10 years including the NBL and was a 1st team All-NBA guy until 52. From limited footage his game seems pretty modern and ahead of its time - he looks really fast and has the nickname Flash. Cousy's case looks better though as he proved himself against harder competition and has more longevity

[trex_8063]

This is not an influence/importance ranking project.

You're dictating criteria here. "Greatness" is what the voter chooses it to be.

[Dr Positivity]

Let's look at his first 6 years before Russell - when the league was for all intents & purposes, still segregated.

If you "modernize" that league - you have a 16 team league made up of white American born players. There's a little over 40 such guys in the modern NBA. You don't even have enough guys currently in the league to fill out the starting lineups. Now you have guys like Louisville star Luke Hancock who sits on our local ESPN Channel playing in this league. Gordon Hayward & Kevin Love are the best players in this league for sure.

That's a simplified way of describing environment Cousy started in - with nutritional benefits. So why didn't he dominate? Why were the Celtics on the treadmill of mediocrity? Why couldn't they even make a Finals?

Dolph Schayes won a ring and made it to the Finals multiple times in this scenario. For that hypothetical league I described, Cousy is basically JJ or Korver. I'm going to vote for Cousy to be in the Top 100 - but it's for pioneer purposes; he's the first point guard to be one of the best players in the league.

I can get behind this logic but to note if they gave out a white MVP award Korver and Redick get killed by Hayward and Love in the voting, however Cousy wins the 57 MVP over Pettit and Schayes, and he beats Schayes most years. Cousy has a case for being the 2nd best white player basically his whole career (behind Mikan, then Pettit), so this would put him above JJ/Korver status the comp for which is clearly Bill Sharman. Also to note Cousy remained an effective player up until the 60s, he was 1st team all-nba until 61 and 2nd team in 62 and 63. In 62 he was still putting up 20/10 per 36 minutes as a 33 year old and 18/9 per 36 his last year. Yes the NBA didn't segregate overnight but he got more of a taste of it

[Lou Fan]

This is not an influence/importance ranking project.

You're dictating criteria here. "Greatness" is what the voter chooses it to be.

I believe a distinction should be made in this case because the difference between the two drastically changes lists.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote: John Havlicek

There are many ways to go but I feel Havlicek has a complete case in terms of impact. He is a great defender compared to some other options here, while adding offensive value by being a top wing playmaker and a good scorer. He has strong longevity, superb portability and perhaps the sealer for me has a great playoff career.

2nd: Gary Payton

[pandrade83]

Let's look at his first 6 years before Russell - when the league was for all intents & purposes, still segregated.

If you "modernize" that league - you have a 16 team league made up of white American born players. There's a little over 40 such guys in the modern NBA. You don't even have enough guys currently in the league to fill out the starting lineups. Now you have guys like Louisville star Luke Hancock who sits on our local ESPN Channel playing in this league. Gordon Hayward & Kevin Love are the best players in this league for sure.

That's a simplified way of describing environment Cousy started in - with nutritional benefits. So why didn't he dominate? Why were the Celtics on the treadmill of mediocrity? Why couldn't they even make a Finals?

Dolph Schayes won a ring and made it to the Finals multiple times in this scenario. For that hypothetical league I described, Cousy is basically JJ or Korver. I'm going to vote for Cousy to be in the Top 100 - but it's for pioneer purposes; he's the first point guard to be one of the best players in the league.

I can get behind this logic but to note if they gave out a white MVP award Korver and Redick get killed by Hayward and Love in the voting, however Cousy wins the 57 MVP over Pettit and Schayes, and he beats Schayes most years. Cousy has a case for being the 2nd best white player basically his whole career (behind Mikan, then Pettit), so this would put him above JJ/Korver status the comp for which is clearly Bill Sharman. Also to note Cousy remained an effective player up until the 60s, he was 1st team all-nba until 61 and 2nd team in 62 and 63. In 62 he was still putting up 20/10 per 36 minutes as a 33 year old and 18/9 per 36 his last year. Yes the NBA didn't segregate overnight but he got more of a taste of it

I'm not totally clear on why he deserved the MVP in that particular year but your point is well taken in that you're saying that there is probably a closer bunching of players together. At any rate, if you're higher on Cousy:

Pre-Russell, Schayes' teams went 3-1 vs. Cousy's in the playoffs; Schayes' teams won a title & made another finals. Schayes appears to be a rock solid defensive anchor in the era - comparable defensive impact as Cousy's offensive impact while also being pretty useful on the offensive end as well (Top 10 in TS% multiple years - even post Russell entering the league), and a good scorer as well while Cousy's defensive impact is questionable - limited game footage definitely doesn't show anything special. If the defensive/offensive impacts are comparable, Schayes being able to impact the offensive end gives him a significant advantage over Cousy. I guess I'm not sure how is Cousy better than Schayes?

With Arizin having the ability to consistently have a TS% in the 51-52% range at high volumes seems extremely valuable in a league where the average is around 45-46%. He still finishes with more career WS than Cousy, even though 2 of his prime years were lost to military service. His on/off impact is extremely apparent - looking at what happens when he first enters the league, and then seeing what happens when he enters military service. He's the best player on a title team in the era - something that Cousy did not achieve. Arizin vs. Cousy seems closer than Schayes over Cousy but I'd probably still rather have Arizin.

Both Arizin & Schayes' impact reduces once Russell enters the league - no doubt there. But Boston stops being this offensive dynamo as well around the same time despite the pace remaining an outlier and adding someone who is always credited with triggering fast breaks, so it's hard to give Cousy too much credit for influencing their offense. You can make a reasonable argument that he wasn't adding that his offensive value was relatively limited since he was taking a ton of shots at a low (even for the time) efficiency rate during that era.

Bottom line: I'm not sure what makes Cousy better than Arizin or Schayes (with Schayes ranking higher for me). And if he's not better than them, that puts him fairly far down the totem pole. If he's the 5th best player (or even 4th) of the 50's, that feels like a player who should be getting in the back half of this project and probably not even being discussed at this stage tbh.

[euroleague]

This is not an influence/importance ranking project.

If this were "influence/importance", then obviously Stockton/KG/David Robinson would be laughable in those spots.

When we are talking about any one person "who would we start our franchise with", many people might say Popovich. Even though he isn't a player. Ideas, leadership, and having fun all affect your team. Cousy was a champion at all these things, and his style of playing was so heavy impact that his techniques are staples of the game even today. The offense that he made in the 50s was what the Celtics used to win the next 15 years.

Being the best in your era is significant, because the next era can learn from you. Not just because you beat a bunch of scrubs playing in the 50s, and the NBA existed in the 50s. If you don't believe this, then having Mikan at such a high rank is ridiculous. Simply copying others, and doing it better than anyone has done it before, is noteworthy. But reinventing the game is more so.

[eminence]

This is not an influence/importance ranking project.

If this were "influence/importance", then obviously Stockton/KG/David Robinson would be laughable in those spots.

When we are talking about any one person "who would we start our franchise with", many people might say Popovich. Even though he isn't a player. Ideas, leadership, and having fun all affect your team. Cousy was a champion at all these things, and his style of playing was so heavy impact that his techniques are staples of the game even today. The offense that he made in the 50s was what the Celtics used to win the next 15 years.

Being the best in your era is significant, because the next era can learn from you. Not just because you beat a bunch of scrubs playing in the 50s, and the NBA existed in the 50s. If you don't believe this, then having Mikan at such a high rank is ridiculous. Simply copying others, and doing it better than anyone has done it before, is noteworthy. But reinventing the game is more so.

KG was pretty influential as the first preps to pro player in a long time.

[trex_8063]

Sorry, have had a cruddy week, haven't had time to participate as I'd like to. Anyway.....

I'm going to stick with the Energizer Bunny, clutch playoff performing Jack of all trades John Havlicek as my top pick here.
Few additional tidbits: although WS/48 does not love him as it's a stat that LOVES high shooting efficiency, he's still 36th in ABA/NBA history in rs WS, 25th all-time in career playoff WS.

Looking at his other metrics and minutes played, I'd estimate that if BPM and VORP were available for his entire career, he'd have a career rs VORP somewhere between 50-54 (which would put him in the late 20's among all players post-1973).


For my 2nd pick, I'm going to stick with a longevity giant, who near his peak finished 2nd in the MVP vote, had three consecutive years in the league's top 5 in RAPM (four consecutive years in top 6), and was a consistent solid contributor in the league for 19 years, exiting the league 31st all-time in career rs WS, and 47th in ABA/NBA history in playoff WS: Jason Kidd.


Other posters on this forum can tend to sour one on Elgin Baylor, but every time I look over things in my own way, I come out impressed with his resume again. Almost went with him as my alternate pick here, probably my top HM right now. Will try to post a bit more on him later.

1st vote: John Havlicek
2nd vote: Jason Kidd
HM's: Elgin Baylor (and The Glide, the A-Train, +/- The Glove)

[trex_8063]

Thru post #50:

John Havlicek - 5 (twolves97, trex_8063, scabbarista, Dr Positivity, dhsilv2)
Elgin Baylor - 3 (Outside, Pablo Novi, Winsome Gerbil)
Clyde Drexler - 2 (pandrade83, JordansBulls)
Walt Frazier - 1 (Clyde Frazier)
Artis Gilmore - 1 (Narigo)
Rick Barry - 1 (Doctor MJ)
Gary Payton - 1 (penbeast0)
Bob Cousy - 1 (euroleague)

Thread will be open about 5-6 more hours.

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[Doctor MJ]

This is not an influence/importance ranking project.

You're dictating criteria here. "Greatness" is what the voter chooses it to be.

Wow. Okay, your project. My bad.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[drza]

I'm on the hustle right now. Vote is the same as last thread:

Vote: Elgin Baylor
2nd: Jason Kidd

While doing that Baylor vs West post, I convinced myself that at the very least, Baylor was making an impact on the order of prime West for his first five years in the NBA before his major knee injuries. The injuries robbed him of some of his athleticism, which likely made itself felt through his ability to rebound, defend and explode on offense. Even so, he was still able to contribute at a high level for another half-decade-ish plus. When looking deeper into the team situation, with a bit of context, I don't buy at all that Baylor's play in the second half of his career deserves to be docked due to perceived ways to maximize his impact. Thus, for me, the math is 5 years of mega elite + knee injuries that would be much lesser deals in other eras with better medicine + a complete decade of still high level play. Deserves to go in at this point.

[dhsilv2]

This is not an influence/importance ranking project.

If this were "influence/importance", then obviously Stockton/KG/David Robinson would be laughable in those spots.

When we are talking about any one person "who would we start our franchise with", many people might say Popovich. Even though he isn't a player. Ideas, leadership, and having fun all affect your team. Cousy was a champion at all these things, and his style of playing was so heavy impact that his techniques are staples of the game even today. The offense that he made in the 50s was what the Celtics used to win the next 15 years.

Being the best in your era is significant, because the next era can learn from you. Not just because you beat a bunch of scrubs playing in the 50s, and the NBA existed in the 50s. If you don't believe this, then having Mikan at such a high rank is ridiculous. Simply copying others, and doing it better than anyone has done it before, is noteworthy. But reinventing the game is more so.

KG was pretty influential as the first preps to pro player in a long time.

KG had a lot of influence beyond just that. His first big contract broke the league and has lead to shorter and more controlled deals after. The 08 celtics would not have been able to use the Thibbs strong side flooding defenses without KG as an anchor or at least it wouldn't have been as devastating. KG's influence there was a big driver in what has lead to today's offenses which are designed to counter that defense.

He's also the first 7 footer I can think of who actually played 2 guard all be it that was a failed experiment early in his career.

[andrewww]

Vote: Elgin Baylor
Alternate: Clyde Drexler

Baylor is simply the best remaining talent imo for reasons already stated, namely a sustained prime especially pre-injury where he was both an underrated play maker and was viewed by his contemporaries as among the best behind Russ/Wilt/West. Holds the Finals record for points in a game in the 62 Finals where his Lakers were unlucky to have not won it all against the hated Celtics finally.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #55 (17 votes, 9 required for true majority):

John Havlicek - 5 (twolves97, trex_8063, scabbarista, Dr Positivity, dhsilv2)
Elgin Baylor - 5 (drza, andrewww, Outside, Pablo Novi, Winsome Gerbil)
Clyde Drexler - 2 (pandrade83, JordansBulls)
Walt Frazier - 1 (Clyde Frazier)
Artis Gilmore - 1 (Narigo)
Rick Barry - 1 (Doctor MJ)
Gary Payton - 1 (penbeast0)
Bob Cousy - 1 (euroleague)

All of Frazier/Gilmore/Barry/Payton/Cousy are first eliminated. Two 2ndary votes (for Kidd and Gilmore) become ghost votes. Otherwise have two votes transfer to Havlicek, one to Drexler.

Havlicek - 7
Baylor - 5
Drexler - 3

Drexler is next eliminated. One more vote transfers to Havlicek, one (for Payton) becomes a ghost vote.

Havlicek - 8
Baylor - 5

Calling this one for Hondo. Will have the next thread up in moments....

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[Gibson22]

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stop quoting me in this kobe project

Apologies [I guess???] for keeping you notified wrt the project (not a Kobe project) you specifically requested to be a part of. I'll remove you from the list.

I was joking mate