High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

[Long2s]

You say high scoring then you put a filter on FGA... At least make the cut with points or something. You just keep on making the cuts that make LBJ look bad vs MJ or something. Glad you got furious when trex posted the elimination games stats with LBJ kicking anyone else's ass.

It's just about the situation really. LeBron has had some situations where he tops MJ, and MJ has some thing he tops LBJ. They're just different animals.

This.

The guy's posts just reek of desperation. He's specifically looking for criteria in which LeBron does poorer compared to Jordan and/or Kobe, and he found the 30 FGA one, because LeBron shot poorer in his 30+ FGA attempt games than Jordan and Kobe, but if dhsilv2's table is accurate, looking at it in any other way, LeBron comes out on top.

See this is where you're wrong.

I am just taking my learned observations from the game of basketball and then I set out to examine if the stats fit what my eyes show and they usually do.

[Long2s]

This is even dumber than your usual topics.

Ahem.

*****

I ask you to extend basic courtesy.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Kobe is 7-10 in playoff games where he took more than 30 shots.

LeBron 7-6.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

MJ?

I counted 24-13. Two games seem to be missing from that total if your 39 games with 30 shot attempts is accurate. Haven't tried to recount yet.

[parapooper]

For playoff games with >= 30 FGA:

Michael Jordan

39 games
655/1312 FG
38/122 3PT
50 FG%
51 eFG%
3 TOV/G

Lebron James

13 games
191/424 FG
28/84 3PT
45 FG%
48 eFG%
3.8 TOV/G

Kobe

17 games
257/550 FG
33/98 3PT
47 FG%
50 eFG%
3.3 TOV/G

Allen Iverson

19 games
270/620 FG
51/130 3PT
44 FG%
39 3PT%
48 eFG%
2.8 TOV/G

More than half of LeBron's games there were in the 2015 playoffs (the worst shooting period of his career together with the 2016 RS, presumably due to practicing Curry-like faster release shooting) when he also had to adapt to suddenly losing his #2 and #3 teammates to injury, lead his team in pts, reb, ast, steals and defense through the playoffs to a well-contested final with an exhausted 8-man rotation of mostly guys recently rejected by non-PS teams.

So pretty impressive that even with more than half his games in this state of complete exhaustion, with a suddenly completely changed team and game plan, with opposing defenses having nothing to worry about except him his scoring efficiency still averaged barely below the others overall.
That Kobe and Iverson who were career-negatives on defense (going by rapm, but acknowledging that Kobe was less bad in the postseason) and also had less offensive duties than LeBron and therefore were much better rested for scoring and more focused on it anyway were not significantly better than LeBron was even in those extremely adverse circumstances is of course not a good look for them. Especially for Kobe who pretty consistently had more efficient guys on his own team that opposing defenses had to cover - in stark contrast to LBJ in 2015.
In the other (non-2015) games where LeBron was in a more normal situation he had an eFG% of 56.3 - clearly the best among these guys.


Also, listing turnovers of all stats but not rebounds, assists ... in these games is a bit odd.
0.5 TO/game differences are somehow relevant but LeBron having almost twice the ast+reb of Kobe/AI is apparently not.

If we look at game scores for the games OP picked we have:
MJ - 31.0 (28.2 against defenses below 106 DRtg, average 102.9)
LBJ - 28.0 (31.2 outside of 2015)
AI - 25.1
Kobe - 23.0
So looking at the games OP picked overall, considering MJ faced an average DRtg of 105.5 and LBJ of 102.4 these two guys are once again about even with clear separation from AI and even more from Kobe before even bringing defense into it.
So more of the usual really

[Ainosterhaspie]

Here's that post again this time adding Jordan's games. Kobe is winning well under 50% when he shoots 30. LeBron is barely over 50%. Jordan is well over 50%. The two percentages below are first the winning percentage in the playoffs for each player with 30+ shot attempts and second the winning percentage for each player in the playoffs overall. Only for Jordan does shooting more than 30 times help his team and for him it is only a small bump
Kobe 7-10, 41%, 61%
LeBron 7-6, 53%, 66%
Jordan 25-14, 64%, 62%

[Joao Saraiva]

You say high scoring then you put a filter on FGA... At least make the cut with points or something. You just keep on making the cuts that make LBJ look bad vs MJ or something. Glad you got furious when trex posted the elimination games stats with LBJ kicking anyone else's ass.

It's just about the situation really. LeBron has had some situations where he tops MJ, and MJ has some thing he tops LBJ. They're just different animals.

This.

The guy's posts just reek of desperation. He's specifically looking for criteria in which LeBron does poorer compared to Jordan and/or Kobe, and he found the 30 FGA one, because LeBron shot poorer in his 30+ FGA attempt games than Jordan and Kobe, but if dhsilv2's table is accurate, looking at it in any other way, LeBron comes out on top.

See this is where you're wrong.

I am just taking my learned observations from the game of basketball and then I set out to examine if the stats fit what my eyes show and they usually do.

Apparently parapooper just took a crap on what you just said here going trough the sample and analyzing it's context. Therefore, your eyes are not getting the correct information. That's what happens when someone actually tries to do this type of threads. Take this elsewhere, because on RealGM this type of bias will just make you look bad over and over again.

[dhsilv2]

dhsilv2, if you use TS%, you should probably include FTr, because from what you posted it is clear Lebron gets a lot more freethrows than MJ and Kobe.

Given lebron plays in the low post and or drives more than kobe and MJ not a big surprise. Should also be noted, a high FGA number means you're not getting fouled, which again makes using the FGA method rather poor imo. You'd almost want to do FGA+FTA*.44 or something as your metric for "volume".

[DidUSaySometing]

I'd like to get a discussion going here, namely why players like Iverson and Kobe continue to have a reputation of being elite tier scorers, despite their "whole body of work" not shining through in most statistical measure.

For both Iverson and Kobe, my personal opinion is that they both played suboptimal styles and in particular they both took too many shots where they should have passed. This is something most people agree on.

Then why are they lauded as great scorers still? Obviously there is something that the watching public (and experts) have seen during their careers that cause this reputation. Something that doesn't show up easily in pure box score averages and thus is forgotten once the context of the games are lost.

As I prove here, for both Iverson and Kobe, it holds true that they were capable of going out on the biggest scene - the playoffs - and provide very efficient, very high volume scoring if need be.

Kobe averages 45 FG% in his entire playoff career, yet in games where of more than 30+ FGA, he actually averages 47 FG%

Allen Iverson averages 40 FG% in his entire playoff career, yet in games where of more than 30+ FGA, he actually averages 44 FG%

Then of course we have MJ, who being the GOAT, is just on an entirely different level averaging a godly 50 FG% in twice as many 30+ FGA games.

This is where the reputation comes from. The ability to massively take over games by scoring on a very high volume. It's the "take over a game by yourself" eye test comment.

sixers win% increased when Iverson took over 30 shots. jordan, KD, LeBron, and kobe's win% decreased when they took over 30 shots a game

[Long2s]

I'd like to get a discussion going here, namely why players like Iverson and Kobe continue to have a reputation of being elite tier scorers, despite their "whole body of work" not shining through in most statistical measure.

For both Iverson and Kobe, my personal opinion is that they both played suboptimal styles and in particular they both took too many shots where they should have passed. This is something most people agree on.

Then why are they lauded as great scorers still? Obviously there is something that the watching public (and experts) have seen during their careers that cause this reputation. Something that doesn't show up easily in pure box score averages and thus is forgotten once the context of the games are lost.

As I prove here, for both Iverson and Kobe, it holds true that they were capable of going out on the biggest scene - the playoffs - and provide very efficient, very high volume scoring if need be.

Kobe averages 45 FG% in his entire playoff career, yet in games where of more than 30+ FGA, he actually averages 47 FG%

Allen Iverson averages 40 FG% in his entire playoff career, yet in games where of more than 30+ FGA, he actually averages 44 FG%

Then of course we have MJ, who being the GOAT, is just on an entirely different level averaging a godly 50 FG% in twice as many 30+ FGA games.

This is where the reputation comes from. The ability to massively take over games by scoring on a very high volume. It's the "take over a game by yourself" eye test comment.

sixers win% increased when Iverson took over 30 shots. jordan, KD, LeBron, and kobe's win% decreased when they took over 30 shots a game

No, see above.

[Long2s]

dhsilv2, if you use TS%, you should probably include FTr, because from what you posted it is clear Lebron gets a lot more freethrows than MJ and Kobe.

Given lebron plays in the low post and or drives more than kobe and MJ not a big surprise. Should also be noted, a high FGA number means you're not getting fouled, which again makes using the FGA method rather poor imo. You'd almost want to do FGA+FTA*.44 or something as your metric for "volume".

Citation needed.

[DidUSaySometing]

I'd like to get a discussion going here, namely why players like Iverson and Kobe continue to have a reputation of being elite tier scorers, despite their "whole body of work" not shining through in most statistical measure.

For both Iverson and Kobe, my personal opinion is that they both played suboptimal styles and in particular they both took too many shots where they should have passed. This is something most people agree on.

Then why are they lauded as great scorers still? Obviously there is something that the watching public (and experts) have seen during their careers that cause this reputation. Something that doesn't show up easily in pure box score averages and thus is forgotten once the context of the games are lost.

As I prove here, for both Iverson and Kobe, it holds true that they were capable of going out on the biggest scene - the playoffs - and provide very efficient, very high volume scoring if need be.

Kobe averages 45 FG% in his entire playoff career, yet in games where of more than 30+ FGA, he actually averages 47 FG%

Allen Iverson averages 40 FG% in his entire playoff career, yet in games where of more than 30+ FGA, he actually averages 44 FG%

Then of course we have MJ, who being the GOAT, is just on an entirely different level averaging a godly 50 FG% in twice as many 30+ FGA games.

This is where the reputation comes from. The ability to massively take over games by scoring on a very high volume. It's the "take over a game by yourself" eye test comment.

sixers win% increased when Iverson took over 30 shots. jordan, KD, LeBron, and kobe's win% decreased when they took over 30 shots a game

No, see above.

in the reg season the lebron, jordan, kobe's win% decreased. iverson's win% increased in the reg season and playoffs

[Long2s]

Guys, guys, including Dhsilv, you need to clearly demarkate if you use regular season stats or playoff stats.

[anthony00]

sixers win% increased when Iverson took over 30 shots. jordan, KD, LeBron, and kobe's win% decreased when they took over 30 shots a game

No, see above.

in the reg season the lebron, jordan, kobe's win% decreased. iverson's win% increased in the reg season and playoffs

impressive

[Dupp]

Why is 30fga’s relevant? So Lebron doesn’t chuck as much or he doesn’t have his best games when he chucks? Crazy.

Very random stupid goal posts.


Why not compare playoff scoring, or elimination game scoring, or finals or conference finals scoring?

Thanks for the stats, but again, I don't see the relevance to what we're discussing, which is in the title: "high volume scoring in the playoffs".

That’s a lie though the thread is about high volume SHOOTING not scoring.

[Dupp]

Heres Lebrons best playoff scoring games. Just posting the 40+ point games coz theres way too many 30 point games.



49 P ( 24 fga)
49 P (30 fga)
48 P (33Fga)
47 P(25 fga)
45 P (29fga)
45 P (23 fga)
45 P (26fga)
44 P(38fga)
44 P (29fga)
41 P (28fga)
41 P ( 30fga)
41 P (27fga)
41 P (28 fga)
41 P (30 fga)
41P ( 27fga)
40P (34fga)
40P ( 23 fga)
40 P (27fga)
40P (34fga)



So theres his top scoring games VOLUME wise. 19 games with ONLY 7 of them having at least 30 fgas.

Thats 12 of his highest volume scoring games eliminated from OPS criteria because he didnt take enough shots? Wut? Sound non bias logic.


BTW 3 of those 7 games were in the 2015-16 finals vs the warriors when lebron had half a team and was injured himself. His career has shown prior to and after that he is an efficient guy. A bum back will do that to you.

[dhsilv2]

dhsilv2, if you use TS%, you should probably include FTr, because from what you posted it is clear Lebron gets a lot more freethrows than MJ and Kobe.

Given lebron plays in the low post and or drives more than kobe and MJ not a big surprise. Should also be noted, a high FGA number means you're not getting fouled, which again makes using the FGA method rather poor imo. You'd almost want to do FGA+FTA*.44 or something as your metric for "volume".

Citation needed.

Give me a break....I'm not uploading the excel doc, i'm not as nice as trex.

[dhsilv2]

Guys, guys, including Dhsilv, you need to clearly demarkate if you use regular season stats or playoff stats.

I have the total game counts for their careers, if you can't clearly an instantly know what I used, that's on you. We're talking MJ, Kobe, and Lebron.

[thekdog34]

Can you add others?

Bird
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Dirk
Wade

[Long2s]

Given lebron plays in the low post and or drives more than kobe and MJ not a big surprise. Should also be noted, a high FGA number means you're not getting fouled, which again makes using the FGA method rather poor imo. You'd almost want to do FGA+FTA*.44 or something as your metric for "volume".

Citation needed.

Give me a break....I'm not uploading the excel doc, i'm not as nice as trex.

You need to present data that Lebron drives more than MJ or Kobe, otherwise unsubstantiated claim.

[dhsilv2]

Citation needed.

Give me a break....I'm not uploading the excel doc, i'm not as nice as trex.

You need to present data that Lebron drives more than MJ or Kobe, otherwise unsubstantiated claim.

http://stats.nba.com/players/shooting/
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

Kinda sol on mj....