#2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[penbeast0]

I didn't vote for Jordan but I certainly understand those who did. The longevity difference (minutes) between MJ and either Moncrief or Allen is pretty massive and while Jordan certainly did take nights off defensively, even when younger (frequently against my sucky Bullets teams until LaBradford Smith trash talked about Jordan with predictable results), when he was locked in and in big games, he was as good as it gets.

[Gibson22]

MJ, in my opinion.

85-87: good
88-90: GOAT level, for a non-big
1st 3 peat: elite to dpoy contender level
95-98: above average to good, with some great minutes/games

[cecilthesheep]

Get out of here with these MJ at #1 man. This list is already poisoned.

Sid again.

MJ at #1 is ... disappointing.

I vote for Sidney Moncrief again.

Why, exactly?

Both of you had opportunity to refute or otherwise provide counterpoints to the arguments made for Jordan in the last thread; neither of you did (other than one of you stating you didn't think he belongs (but you saying it doesn't make it so)).

For that matter, neither of you provided much by way of arguments FOR Moncrief either, instead opting to refer to posts made by others in Moncrief's favour (stating that pretty well covered it).......though at the point in the thread where you made those comments, the only arguments made for Moncrief were largely anecdotal (eye-test) in nature, other than mentions of his two DPOY's.

And finally, I made a rather lengthy----and somewhat more "evidence-based"----post stating why I would NOT be lending Moncrief my vote for #1. Both of you had opportunity to poke holes in that or otherwise provide counter-point; neither of you did.


So it's then kinda frustrating when you come into thread #2 poo-pooing on a result you don't like.

The part I've bolded is simply untrue. I said MJ took plays off and put less effort into defense as a result of how much he was doing on offense, which is true - I still have him in my top 5 because of his abilities when locked in, but he was not always an every-possession guy. I also provided specific reasons I was voting for Moncrief in two separate comments. Yes, I also referred to other comments to avoid repeating things, but that was far from the only thing I said.

I don't necessarily think it's completely indefensible to put MJ at number one, but I do think some of the votes for him were automatic results of his name recognition and reputation compared to these other guys. People were dropping into the thread just to say "MJ" or "Vote Jordan" or "Michael Jordan is the #1 shooting guard period" and then not participating or explaining otherwise. That's what disappoints me.

[cecilthesheep]

Moncrief

Edit: I think you might get more participation by simply adding a poll. Choose 9 candidates most likely to receive votes, and add 1 for other. If other gets picked, that person names player they're voting for, and said player gets rotated in over a player with less votes for the next poll.

Eh, a poll at the top of the thread encourages participation without much research, thought, or justification - more people will respond without even reading through the thread. I like the comment system even if it doesn't completely eliminate that stuff.

[Gibson22]

Moncrief

Edit: I think you might get more participation by simply adding a poll. Choose 9 candidates most likely to receive votes, and add 1 for other. If other gets picked, that person names player they're voting for, and said player gets rotated in over a player with less votes for the next poll.

Eh, a poll at the top of the thread encourages participation without much research, thought, or justification - more people will respond without even reading through the thread. I like the comment system even if it doesn't completely eliminate that stuff.

The only way to have more partecipation while manteining the resemblance of a real gm "project" is inviting other people who may be interested, I tag a lot of people everytime but a lot of them are inactive users or people who I think post almost solely in the general board, so if any of you knows someone who would like to take a look here, you can do it, but I think we're fine, it's just that we're almost always the same posters and because of the fact that there aren't too many things to say about defense 8it's not like discussing careers in an all time list) so after a few threads for every position there isn't much new to say, but it's okay. Plus the fact that the majority of the active players who some people may root for or have an interest in (to remain at this position, I think andre roberson can be the best ever, I think jimmy b is exceptional defender and I may start to consider him very soon) have played too few minutes so they often aren't in contention

Anyway:
Moncrief 9 (iggymcfrack, SuperDario, penbeast0, samurai, cecilthesheep, BAMBA5, pandrade83. SinceGatlingWasaRookie, knickfan33)
Tony Allen 6 (Dr Positivity, homecourtloss, lebron3-14-3. HeartBreakkid, electricmayhem, mddonnelly1989)
Michael Cooper 1 (kendogg)

[LA Bird]

Never realized how strong of a fanbase Moncrief had on here. Everybody have their favorites but some people are talking like Moncrief got robbed or something. Let's take a look at the comparisons of all the defensive stats we have for him and MJ:

Total minutes
36k Bulls Jordan
22k Bucks Moncrief
> Massive advantage to Jordan

Steals per game
Moncrief career high = 1.7
Bulls Jordan career low = 1.7
> Massive advantage to Jordan

Blocks per game
Moncrief career high = 0.5
Bulls Jordan career low = 0.5
> Massive advantage to Jordan

DWS
Jordan had 9 seasons with a higher DWS than Moncrief's career high. He was top 10 eight times (Moncrief only once).
> Massive advantage to Jordan

DBPM
Jordan had 6 seasons with a higher DBPM than Moncrief's career high. His career average with the Bulls is equal to Moncrief's career high.
> Massive advantage to Jordan

Box DRtg
Jordan had 7 seasons with a lower box DRtg than Moncrief's career best. His career average with the Bulls is equal to Moncrief's career high.
> Massive advantage to Jordan

Best team regular season defenses
Moncrief: -4.6, -4.5, -4.3, -4.0, -3.7, -3.3, -2.4 = -3.8 average (* Includes 1980 when he was a rookie playing 20 minutes a game)
Jordan: -5.8, -5.2, -4.3, -3.7, -2.7, -2.5, -1.9 = -3.7 average
> Tie or small advantage to Moncrief

Best team post season defenses
Moncrief: -4.9, -4.1, -2.3, -0.5, +2.2, +3,2, +3.3 = -0.4 average
Jordan: -8.3, -7.0, -6.9, -4.4, -4.1, -3.2, -2.1 = -5.1 average
> Massive advantage to Jordan

The only category where Moncrief is even close to Jordan is team RS defense but then the Bucks often choked it away on defense in the postseason. It's the reason why they were playoff disappointments despite being the #2 regular season SRS team over most of the 80s. Moncrief was a great defensive player but his fans should stop acting like he was entitled to #1. Jordan even with some occasional coasting is a better candidate as GOAT defensive SG.

[LA Bird]

Anyway, I'll vote Tony Allen

The best per possession defensive impact among SGs and his longevity wasn't much worse than Moncrief's or Cooper's.

Some of my posts from 2015 about Tony Allen's defense and comparison with Kawhi

2015 Tony Allen

Box score: Averaged 6.6 steal+block % in regular season and playoffs. Highest ever by a starting guard.
Advanced stats (DBPM): Highest ever by a starting guard in both regular season and playoffs.
Opponent FG% dropoff: Highest by far since SportVU started tracking it the last 2 years
Team impact: Anchored a top 3 defensive team despite having no rim protection at all from their 2 bigs.

...

Box score: Steal+block % in regular season and playoffs.
6.6 Allen (Highest ever by a starting guard)
5.2 Leonard

Advanced stats: DBPM in regular season and playoffs
4.3 Allen (Highest ever by a starting guard)
3.3 Leonard

Opponent FG% dropoff (negative is better)
-10.7 Allen (playoffs)
-6.8 Allen (regular season)
-0.4 Leonard (regular season)
+6.4 Leonard (playoffs)

Defensive help from teammates
Duncan is the 8th best rim protector in the league. Even at his age, he is still great.
Gasol is the 58th best rim protector in the league. He is below average in this regard.

Team impact

With Allen, Without Gasol: 89.5 DRtg. (GOAT level defense)
With Gasol, Without Allen: 108.2 DRtg. (Bottom 5 defense)

With Leonard, Without Duncan: 99.7 DRtg. (#1 defense, but nowhere near GOAT level)
With Duncan, Without Leonard: 104.9 DRtg. (Still an above average defense)

Actual on court defensive rating

Spurs: 102.0 DRtg
Leonard: 99.8 (-2.2)
Rest of starters: 102.4 (+0.4)

Grizzlies: 102.2 DRtg
Allen: 97.5 (-4.7)
Rest of starters: 104.1 (+1.9)

Allen fares better in all individual defensive stats and Grizzlies plays better defense with him on the court than Spurs does with Leonard even though Allen has significantly less defensive help. Just look at how he single handedly shut down the GOAT 3 point shooting duo in the playoffs while his teammate, a decent defender himself, gets absolutely roasted.

Warriors 3 point shooting
1-14 against Tony Allen (7.1%)
15-29 against Mike Conley (51.7%)

[trex_8063]

The part I've bolded is simply untrue. I said MJ took plays off and put less effort into defense as a result of how much he was doing on offense, which is true - I still have him in my top 5 because of his abilities when locked in, but he was not always an every-possession guy. I also provided specific reasons I was voting for Moncrief in two separate comments. Yes, I also referred to other comments to avoid repeating things, but that was far from the only thing I said.

I don't necessarily think it's completely indefensible to put MJ at number one, but I do think some of the votes for him were automatic results of his name recognition and reputation compared to these other guys. People were dropping into the thread just to say "MJ" or "Vote Jordan" or "Michael Jordan is the #1 shooting guard period" and then not participating or explaining otherwise. That's what disappoints me.

I can sympathize with the bolded. Though to be fair, there were multiple posters who only popped in to say "Vote Moncrief" or similar with no explanation, too.

Anyway, I'm glad you elaborated wrt the bolded portion. The previous post (combined with the other I’d quoted) otherwise read like some kind of "smh" / response, as though it was ludicrous that MJ got #1. I've a few points to harp on (though I don't want to totally derail; thought of putting this in the #1 thread, but it loses continuity that way; instead I put a post in there telling readers the convo on MJ continued in the #2 thread):

Regarding him taking possessions off......
I won't say he didn't take defensive possessions off (he did), though I don't think it happened quite as often as some imply. There are behaviors that some players exhibit which makes it obvious they're keyed into a defensive possession: suppose their man is off-ball, just sort of fanning out to the wing on the weakside; these behaviors may involve still staying low in your defensive stance, rapidly shuffling your feet (practically bouncing on your toes) ready to move, head swinging frantically back and forth, etc.
That's all well and good, and to the casual observer it makes it fairly obvious that he's paying attention and otherwise engaged defensively.

But it's ultimately somewhat wasted energy. When your man is fanning out to the weakside, really all one needs to do is settle down into an area sort of between him and the ball in a position where you can more or less see both the ball and your man in your peripheral vision (or with minimal turning of the head), and be ready to move.
Strictly speaking, this doesn't require the bouncing on your toes and swiveling head, and the other "keyed in" mannerisms.

Players such as Michael Jordan, as well as Lebron and Kobe (even in the years they were good defensively), would often forego those types of behaviors in what I'd call a simple economy of motion: conserving energy by not wasting it on unnecessary movement. That's not the same as "checking out" for a possession (though I suspect many a casual viewer sees that and interprets its as him "taking a break"). Not saying that’s what you’re doing, but I do think that happens.

I watched a huge hunk of his career in real-time, and I’ve gone back and rewatched many games or partial games (from all stages of his career…..well, except the Wiz years), and the degree to which he may have taken possessions off was NEVER to the degree that someone like James Harden has at multiple points in his career (or even remotely close to that imo): where taking a break on defense is quite simply a way of life on the court.

To my eye, Jordan was checked in defensively FAR more often than he wasn’t (especially by around ‘89 thru the end of his Bulls years).


Otherwise, just in a summary defense of MJ’s taking #1…..
1980’s Jordan was averaging a staggering 3.5 steals and 1.5 blocks per 100 possessions. One can say that he gambled often (and to some degree they’d be correct, especially ‘85-’87). But the same criticisms were made of Alvin Robertson (even at the time, as posted by Owly in the last thread) in how he gambled excessively for steals, frequently hanging his team defense out to dry. And he still got a DPOY and multiple All-D honors. And fwiw, the very source that Owly posted (criticising this) still awarded him a fairly good defensive rating all the same.
Just for comparison (to illustrate how ridiculously elite those numbers are for a wing): ‘05-’13 DWade averaged 2.6 and 1.5; ‘86-’92 Alvin Robertson averaged 4.3 and 0.6, ‘08-’13 Lebron averaged 2.4 and 1.3. And fwiw, 80’s Jordan did so while averaging slightly more minutes than all of the above except Lebron (significantly more than Robertson), and more DRebs per 100 than all of them except Lebron, too.

I know these box-based defensive numbers are not the most reliable indicators of defense, but it’s frankly hard to believe that a wing coming up with those kinds of help D and rebounding numbers is NOT at least a slightly positive impact defensive player when I also KNOW (from eye-test/scouting) that he was not checked out/taking a break in halfcourt D near as often as others we might speak of (e.g. Harden), and also that he didn’t have the physical limitations of other weak defensive guards (e.g. Isaiah Thomas [lack of length/reach, and thus poor shot contester and exploitable in the post], or Steve Nash [poor lateral quickness for his position], etc).

By the 90’s, MJ struck me as an intelligent team defender who was generally checked in on that end, and not gambling excessively (also had bulked up which improved his post D). And yet 90’s MJ still averaged 3.1 steals and 1.0 blocks per 100, despite a higher commitment to sound halfcourt team defense.

We have virtual proof (in the form of DRAPM and similar metrics) that he was a significant positive impact defensive player even at the extreme tail-end of his prime (reaching to age 35):
*a DRAPM of +1.7 or better in each of his last two Bulls seasons. That’s legit All-Defensive team territory for a wing.
**In ‘96 he edged a peak/near-peak David Robinson by a significant margin for #1 in the league in regular season APM (likely near-impossible without a pretty significantly positive defensive split).
And it’s [arguably] safe to assume he had even better/more impactful years earlier in his career.


We combine all that with consideration that he had roughly TWICE the number of minutes as a solid defensive player as the other major contenders for the spot (Moncrief, Allen, Cooper), noting also that he's got more All-D honors than any of them as well as a DPOY to his credit.......
That seems like a perfectly reasonable candidate.

[Gibson22]

Hi guys

Spoiler:

a

a

a

a

a

.

a

a

.

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

/

/

/

/

/

/

/

/

/

/

/

/

/

/

/

/

/

/

/

/

/

[penbeast0]

A suggestion if you dislike the voting without reasoning; when we did the top 100 project, those votes just plain weren't counted. No reasoning, no vote.

I would like to get off all the Jordan stuff and get on to looking at the other players. I'm a Moncrief voter but there are certainly other worthy candidates that deserve mention and comparison instead of rehashing a vote that Jordan already won.

[trex_8063]

I'd brought this up in the last thread......

Moncrief's primary compliment as a defensive player is that he was a "stopper". Well, I'd looked at some H2H's (just added Clyde Drexler to the pool of those evaluated), and it's [so far] not reflected in the players I've looked at match-ups against (and I'm cherry-picking only Moncrief's prime years ['82-'86], too):

'85-'86 Michael Jordan vs. Moncrief (8 games): 26.6 ppg, 52.9% eFG%, 9.6 FTA/g, 5.1 apg, 2.75 topg
'85-'86 M.Jordan overall: 27.2 ppg, 50.8% eFG%, 8.7 FTA/g, 5.3 apg, 3.4 topg

'82-'86 Dennis Johnson vs Moncrief (18 games): 17.2 ppg, 46.25% eFG%, 5.6 FTA/g, 54.5% TS, 5.1 apg, 2.4 topg
'82-'86 D.Johnson overall: 15.6 ppg, 46.1% eFG%, 4.5 FTA/g, 52.5% TS, 5.3 apg, 2.5 topg

'82-'83 David Thompson vs Moncrief (4 games): 16.5 ppg, 47.8% eFG%, 7.0 FTA/g, 2.5 apg, 2.5 topg
'82-'83 D.Thompson overall: 15.4 ppg, 48.5% eFG%, 5.3 FTA/g, 2.5 apg, 2.2 topg

'82-'85 Andrew Toney vs Moncrief (21 games): 19.1 ppg @ 60.0% TS, 4.5 apg, 3.0 topg
'82-'85 Andrew Toney overall: 18.6 ppg @ 57.7% TS, 4.5 apg, 3.3 topg

'82-'86 Walter Davis vs Moncrief (9 games): 19.2 ppg, 46.7% eFG%, 4.1 FTA/g, 3.3 apg, 2.2 topg
'82-'86 W.Davis overall: 18.8 ppg, 50.9% eFG%, 3.2 FTA/g, 4.7 apg, 2.6 topg

Clyde Drexler (‘84-’86) vs Moncrief (6 games): 14.5 ppg @ 49.7% TS, 6.8 apg, 3.2 topg.
Clyde Drexler (‘84-’86) overall: 14.3 ppg @ 52.5% TS, 5.0 apg, 2.6 topg.



I've now looked at just a few H2H's for Michael Cooper (as he was generally the guy the Lakers would turn to to cover the most potent scorer of the opposing team's perimeter core):

Michael Jordan vs Cooper (9 games): 31.2 ppg @ 55.5% TS, 6.2 apg, 4.0 topg.
‘85-’90 MJ overall: 32.8 ppg @ 59.2% TS, 6.0 apg, 3.3 topg

Sidney Moncrief vs Cooper (20 games): 13.2 ppg @ 52.9% TS, 4.0 apg, 2.0 topg.
‘80-’89 Moncrief overall: 16.7 ppg @ 59.1% TS, 3.9 apg, 2.1 topg.

Andrew Toney vs Cooper (12 games): 20.7 ppg @ *55.8% TS, *1.9 apg, **3.0 topg (*11 games, **8 games).
Andrew Toney overall: 15.9 ppg @ 56.5% TS, 4.2 apg, 3.0 topg.

Walter Davis vs Cooper (‘80-’90, 46 games): 17.2 ppg @ 52.9% TS, 4.1 apg, 2.6 topg.
Walter Davis (‘80-’90) overall: 18.9 ppg @ 55.5% TS, 4.1 apg, 2.4 topg.

Clyde Drexler vs Cooper (38 games): 19.4 ppg @ 49.5% TS, 5.9 apg, 2.8 topg.
Clyde Drexler (‘84-’90) overall: 20.3 ppg @ 54.6% TS, 5.6 apg, 2.8 topg.
NOTE: Drexler held to 19.8 ppg @ 49.0% TS, 8.9 apg, 3.8 topg in playoffs against Cooper (weighted for playoff games played against Lakers in each meeting, was avg 20.95 ppg @ 54.2% TS, 5.6 apg, 2.95 topg in rs same years)

^^^You'll note that [so far; we're still far from conclusive of anything, I realize] we're seeing a more consistent trend of opposing wing scorers having trouble when facing Cooper than we see in Moncrief's study above (and note that I'm using ALL of Cooper's career, not just the prime years as I did with Moncrief). I also note Cooper's slightly better help D numbers (2.1 steals and 1.0 blocks per 100, vs. 1.9 and 0.5 for Sid), although Sid did that in higher mpg. However , in total career minutes they're basically even.

Coop's also got a DPOY to his credit, and a higher total of All-D honors, fwiw.
Not that I don't think there's a case to be made for Sid, but I'm going with Michael Cooper.

[bledredwine]

Excellent post by Tex.

The reason we ended up discussing more MJ is that there are a few posters acting like Jordan isn't even in this league, when his defensive achievements are at the very top of SG's and the stats, impact, and eye test all reflect it.

For those that maybe didn't see much Jordan in his peak, this is the type of defensive impact that he could have.

Watch on YouTube

I just have yet to see another SG who dominated the game so much defensively, let alone on both sides of the court (Why Jordan was known as the quintessential all-around player during his career). The only perimeter player that really reminds me of Jordan in impacting the game in dynamic (versatile) defense is Kawhi actually. And comparing Jordan's peak (IMO 88-90) with Kawhi over the last 3 years in defensive winshares

Kawhi: 4.7, 5.5, 4.4. 3 year average 4.86
Jordan: 6.1, 5.2, 4.3 3 year average 5.2

And yes, I'm up for discussing other players. But to keep further Jordan validation out of it, we must keep Jordan criticism out of it to begin with (a general criticism of him not deserving it continues Jordan discussion, and that's fine).

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

The Bucks kept having a top defense and other than Buckner early and Pressey later Moncrief was the only defensive stud on the team. Catchings had great timing on the shot blocks but I never saw him as being very athletic. Alton Lister was athletic but I never saw him as being a smart defender. Terry Cummings was a good rebounder and scorer but I did not think Terry Cummings was better than an average defender. Winters, Hodges and Dunleavy lacked athleticism. I did not think Mickey Johnson, Marques Johnson and Bridgeman were particularly good defenders. Bruer was very tall but he was immobile. I liked Lanier's defense better than some did but Lanier was just adequate. Somehow the sum of the Bucks peices were better defensivly than the individual players were. Odd thing is that that was a Don Nelson team and people think of Nelson as being an offensive coach. nelson was underated as a defensive coach.

I thought Moncrief was better than Tony Allen. Moncrief was a little smaller and quicker and more physical than Allen. Moncrief did spend some time defending point gurds.

I think the advanced defensive stats are not very real prior to on off numbers. If you want to measure rebounds and steals just call them rebounds and steals but don't try to make a defensive stat out of them.

The Bucks good defensive FG% just backs up my somewhat faded memory of Moncrief.

Trex, it may not change the head to head but in 1983-84 I have Moncrief playing half of his defensive minutes at point guard. Then the next few years with Hodges I think Moncrief defends the better guard except for the half season that John Lucas played. Darryl Griffith and World B Free might be some guys to check against Moncrief. At first glance nothing really stands out with those head to heads. They score well some games and don't score well other games.

[Gibson22]

How the hell is MJ number one when he can't even put consistent effort due to offensive responsibilities? If this is based on mere peak moments then LeBron should be the number one SF defender as well.

lol!

1. What? When did Jordan take games off guarding his matchup?

2. Oh you brought Lebron into this.

I get it now. No surprise.

Lebron has nothing to do with this thread, and he’s nowhere near the top SF defender.
That said, you owe it to yourself to watch some young Jordan before making rash/false assertions.

It depends on what do you mean with near the top sf. is he close to having a case for #1? not in my opinion. are there many guys who have a case over him, considering that he played 44k minutes? no

[cecilthesheep]

The part I've bolded is simply untrue. I said MJ took plays off and put less effort into defense as a result of how much he was doing on offense, which is true - I still have him in my top 5 because of his abilities when locked in, but he was not always an every-possession guy. I also provided specific reasons I was voting for Moncrief in two separate comments. Yes, I also referred to other comments to avoid repeating things, but that was far from the only thing I said.

I don't necessarily think it's completely indefensible to put MJ at number one, but I do think some of the votes for him were automatic results of his name recognition and reputation compared to these other guys. People were dropping into the thread just to say "MJ" or "Vote Jordan" or "Michael Jordan is the #1 shooting guard period" and then not participating or explaining otherwise. That's what disappoints me.

I can sympathize with the bolded. Though to be fair, there were multiple posters who only popped in to say "Vote Moncrief" or similar with no explanation, too.

Anyway, I'm glad you elaborated wrt the bolded portion. The previous post (combined with the other I’d quoted) otherwise read like some kind of "smh" / response, as though it was ludicrous that MJ got #1. I've a few points to harp on (though I don't want to totally derail; thought of putting this in the #1 thread, but it loses continuity that way; instead I put a post in there telling readers the convo on MJ continued in the #2 thread):

Regarding him taking possessions off......
I won't say he didn't take defensive possessions off (he did), though I don't think it happened quite as often as some imply. There are behaviors that some players exhibit which makes it obvious they're keyed into a defensive possession: suppose their man is off-ball, just sort of fanning out to the wing on the weakside; these behaviors may involve still staying low in your defensive stance, rapidly shuffling your feet (practically bouncing on your toes) ready to move, head swinging frantically back and forth, etc.
That's all well and good, and to the casual observer it makes it fairly obvious that he's paying attention and otherwise engaged defensively.

But it's ultimately somewhat wasted energy. When your man is fanning out to the weakside, really all one needs to do is settle down into an area sort of between him and the ball in a position where you can more or less see both the ball and your man in your peripheral vision (or with minimal turning of the head), and be ready to move.
Strictly speaking, this doesn't require the bouncing on your toes and swiveling head, and the other "keyed in" mannerisms.

Players such as Michael Jordan, as well as Lebron and Kobe (even in the years they were good defensively), would often forego those types of behaviors in what I'd call a simple economy of motion: conserving energy by not wasting it on unnecessary movement. That's not the same as "checking out" for a possession (though I suspect many a casual viewer sees that and interprets its as him "taking a break"). Not saying that’s what you’re doing, but I do think that happens.

I watched a huge hunk of his career in real-time, and I’ve gone back and rewatched many games or partial games (from all stages of his career…..well, except the Wiz years), and the degree to which he may have taken possessions off was NEVER to the degree that someone like James Harden has at multiple points in his career (or even remotely close to that imo): where taking a break on defense is quite simply a way of life on the court.

To my eye, Jordan was checked in defensively FAR more often than he wasn’t (especially by around ‘89 thru the end of his Bulls years).


Otherwise, just in a summary defense of MJ’s taking #1…..
1980’s Jordan was averaging a staggering 3.5 steals and 1.5 blocks per 100 possessions. One can say that he gambled often (and to some degree they’d be correct, especially ‘85-’87). But the same criticisms were made of Alvin Robertson (even at the time, as posted by Owly in the last thread) in how he gambled excessively for steals, frequently hanging his team defense out to dry. And he still got a DPOY and multiple All-D honors. And fwiw, the very source that Owly posted (criticising this) still awarded him a fairly good defensive rating all the same.
Just for comparison (to illustrate how ridiculously elite those numbers are for a wing): ‘05-’13 DWade averaged 2.6 and 1.5; ‘86-’92 Alvin Robertson averaged 4.3 and 0.6, ‘08-’13 Lebron averaged 2.4 and 1.3. And fwiw, 80’s Jordan did so while averaging slightly more minutes than all of the above except Lebron (significantly more than Robertson), and more DRebs per 100 than all of them except Lebron, too.

I know these box-based defensive numbers are not the most reliable indicators of defense, but it’s frankly hard to believe that a wing coming up with those kinds of help D and rebounding numbers is NOT at least a slightly positive impact defensive player when I also KNOW (from eye-test/scouting) that he was not checked out/taking a break in halfcourt D near as often as others we might speak of (e.g. Harden), and also that he didn’t have the physical limitations of other weak defensive guards (e.g. Isaiah Thomas [lack of length/reach, and thus poor shot contester and exploitable in the post], or Steve Nash [poor lateral quickness for his position], etc).

By the 90’s, MJ struck me as an intelligent team defender who was generally checked in on that end, and not gambling excessively (also had bulked up which improved his post D). And yet 90’s MJ still averaged 3.1 steals and 1.0 blocks per 100, despite a higher commitment to sound halfcourt team defense.

We have virtual proof (in the form of DRAPM and similar metrics) that he was a significant positive impact defensive player even at the extreme tail-end of his prime (reaching to age 35):
*a DRAPM of +1.7 or better in each of his last two Bulls seasons. That’s legit All-Defensive team territory for a wing.
**In ‘96 he edged a peak/near-peak David Robinson by a significant margin for #1 in the league in regular season APM (likely near-impossible without a pretty significantly positive defensive split).
And it’s [arguably] safe to assume he had even better/more impactful years earlier in his career.


We combine all that with consideration that he had roughly TWICE the number of minutes as a solid defensive player as the other major contenders for the spot (Moncrief, Allen, Cooper), noting also that he's got more All-D honors than any of them as well as a DPOY to his credit.......
That seems like a perfectly reasonable candidate.

This all makes quite a bit of sense. You're making me rather more okay with Jordan at #1. You're at least right that I should likely not have called it "disappointing" without providing more context for what I meant.

[bledredwine]

How the hell is MJ number one when he can't even put consistent effort due to offensive responsibilities? If this is based on mere peak moments then LeBron should be the number one SF defender as well.

lol!

1. What? When did Jordan take games off guarding his matchup?

2. Oh you brought Lebron into this.

I get it now. No surprise.

Lebron has nothing to do with this thread, and he’s nowhere near the top SF defender.
That said, you owe it to yourself to watch some young Jordan before making rash/false assertions.

It depends on what do you mean with near the top sf. is he close to having a case for #1? not in my opinion. are there many guys who have a case over him, considering that he played 44k minutes? no

Hmmmm I soubt that longetivity is much of a factor just because many defensive players have had significant longetivity. Current players that are better, we have Kawhi, Butler........ maybe PG depending on his longetivity.

then you have the defensive monsters/specialists of the past - Battier, Artest, Bowen, Tayshaun, Marion, Rodman, Pippen, Bobby Jones, Worthy and DeBusschere.

Of those I just named, I’ll give Lebron benefit of the doubt over the to-be-determined, but he would likely not be considered over any of Pippen, Kawhi, Bowen, Rodman, Artest, Jones, Tayshaun, Marion, DeBusschere. And I’m probably forgetting a couple.

[Gibson22]

1 hour to go

[Gibson22]

lol!

1. What? When did Jordan take games off guarding his matchup?

2. Oh you brought Lebron into this.

I get it now. No surprise.

Lebron has nothing to do with this thread, and he’s nowhere near the top SF defender.
That said, you owe it to yourself to watch some young Jordan before making rash/false assertions.

It depends on what do you mean with near the top sf. is he close to having a case for #1? not in my opinion. are there many guys who have a case over him, considering that he played 44k minutes? no

Hmmmm I soubt that longetivity is much of a factor just because many defensive players have had significant longetivity. Current players that are better, we have Kawhi, Butler........ maybe PG depending on his longetivity.

then you have the defensive monsters/specialists of the past - Battier, Artest, Bowen, Tayshaun, Marion, Rodman, Pippen, Bobby Jones, Worthy and DeBusschere.

Of those I just named, I’ll give Lebron benefit of the doubt over the to-be-determined, but he would likely not be considered over any of Pippen, Kawhi, Bowen, Rodman, Artest, Jones, Tayshaun, Marion, DeBusschere. And I’m probably forgetting a couple.

I mean..you think that lebron is not close to being the greatest driver of all time despite evidence indicating otherwise
You think lebron is not clutch despite evidence indicating he is one of the top 2 clutchest ever (with jordan), or surely one of the cluthcest ever (no, those post linked in your signature is not evidence).

You think lebron isn't even a top 10 SF defender ever (!!!!!!!, but, for the matter, it is not like there's a gap on jordan's favour over lebron on the defensive end, you can legitimately pick either of the two, I would pick jordan, but you can't go wrong picking one or the other. Ben taylor for example has lebron over jordan on defense. The undisputable truth is that they are close.

Do you even consider lebron better than kobe as a player? Are you sure you are not biased? I would like to keep this project unbiased

[mdonnelly1989]

We vote the #2 best defensive shooting guard of all time. Michael Jordan was voted #1
EVERYBODY CAN PARTECIPATE.

Those are the links for the Point Guards.

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan

And this is where it started
Idea

And this is where we listed the candidates. I opened a poll where butler, thabo, andre roberson and dan majerle came out as SGs. Iguodala, Bowen, Stepehn Jackson are SFs

Candidates list

What do you think about how this is going so far? Well obviously for the last spots the partecipation dropped (well, I hope that was the reason), but I think this is going well.

Anyway these are the candidates

Bill Sharman (Washington Capitols, 1951/1961, All-Def teams didn’t exist)

Tom Gola (Philadelphia Warriors, San Francisco Warriors, Knicks, 1956/1966 All-Def teams didn’t exist)

Jerry Sloan (Bullets, Bulls, 1966/1976, X6 All-Defensive)

Don Chaney (Lakers, St.Louis Spirits, 1969/1980, X5 All-Defensive)

Lionel Hollins (Blazers, 76ers, San Diego Clippers, Pistons, Rockets, 1976/1985, X2 All-Defensive)

Eddie Johnson (Hawks, Cavs, Supersonics, 1978/1987, X2 All-Defensive)

T.R. Dunn (Portland, Denver, Phoenix, 1978/1991, X3 All-Defensive)

Michael Cooper (Lakers, 1979-1990, X8 All-Defensive, X1 DPOY)

Sidney Moncrief (Bucks, Hawks, 1980-1991, X5 All-Defensive, X2 DPOY)

Fat Lever (Blazers, Nuggets, Mavs, 1983/1994, X1 All-Defensive)

Alvin Robertson (Spurs, Bucks, Pistons, Raptors, 1985/1996 X6 All-Defensive, X1 DPOY)

Joe Dumars (Pistons, 1986/1999, X5 All-Defensive)

Dan Majerle (Suns, Cavs, Heat, 1989/2002, X2 All-Defensive)

John Starks (Warriors, Knicks, Bulls, Jazz, 1989/2002, X1 All-Defensive)

Vernon Maxwell (Spurs, Rockets, 76ers, Magic, Hornets, Kings, SuperSonics, Mavs, 1989/2001)

Mitch Richmond (Warriors, Kings, Wizards, Lakers, 1989/2002)

Jaren Jackson Sr (Nets, Warriors, Clippers, Blazers, 76ers, Rockets, Bullets, Spurs, Magic, 1990/2002)

Nick Anderson (Magic, Kings, Grizzlies, 1990/2002)

Bobby Phills (Cavs, Hornets, 1992/2000, X1 All-Defensive)

Stacey Augmon (Hawks, Pistons, Blazers, Hornets, Magic, 1992/2006)

Latrell Sprewell (Warriors, Knicks, Timberwolves, 1993/2005, X1 All-Defensive)

Doug Christie (Lakers, Knicks, Raptors, Kings, Magic, Mavs, Clippers, 1993/2007, X4 All-Defensive)

Aaron Mckie (Blazers, Pistons, 76ers, Lakers, 1995/2007)

Eddie Jones (Lakers, Hornets, Heat, Grizzlies, Mavs, 1995/2008, X3 All-Defensive)

Kobe Bryant (Lakers, 1997/2016, X12 All-Defensive)

Raja Bell (76ers, Mavs, Jazz, Suns, Hornets, Warrios, 2001-2012, X2 All-Defensive)

Manu Ginobili (Spurs, 2003/2018)

Wade (Heat, Bulls, Cavs, 2004/2018, X3 All-Defensive)

Tony Allen (Celtics, Grizzlies, Pelicans, 2005/2018, X6 All-Defensive)

Thabo Sefolosha (Bulls, OKC, Atlanta, Utah, 2007/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Danny Green (Cavs, Spurs, 2010/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Avery Bradley (Celtics, Pistons, Clippers, 2011/2018, X2 All-Defensive)

Jimmy Butler (Bulls, Timberwolves, 2012/2018, X4 All-Defensive)

Klay Thompson (Warriors, 2012/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Victor Oladipo (Orlando, Okc, Indiana, 2014/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Marcus smart (Boston Celtics, 2015/2018)

Andre Roberson (OKC, 2015/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

What do you think about doing the top 10 defensive players of all time, regardless of position after the positions are up....

[Gibson22]

We vote the #2 best defensive shooting guard of all time. Michael Jordan was voted #1
EVERYBODY CAN PARTECIPATE.

Those are the links for the Point Guards.

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan

And this is where it started
Idea

And this is where we listed the candidates. I opened a poll where butler, thabo, andre roberson and dan majerle came out as SGs. Iguodala, Bowen, Stepehn Jackson are SFs

Candidates list

What do you think about how this is going so far? Well obviously for the last spots the partecipation dropped (well, I hope that was the reason), but I think this is going well.

Anyway these are the candidates

Bill Sharman (Washington Capitols, 1951/1961, All-Def teams didn’t exist)

Tom Gola (Philadelphia Warriors, San Francisco Warriors, Knicks, 1956/1966 All-Def teams didn’t exist)

Jerry Sloan (Bullets, Bulls, 1966/1976, X6 All-Defensive)

Don Chaney (Lakers, St.Louis Spirits, 1969/1980, X5 All-Defensive)

Lionel Hollins (Blazers, 76ers, San Diego Clippers, Pistons, Rockets, 1976/1985, X2 All-Defensive)

Eddie Johnson (Hawks, Cavs, Supersonics, 1978/1987, X2 All-Defensive)

T.R. Dunn (Portland, Denver, Phoenix, 1978/1991, X3 All-Defensive)

Michael Cooper (Lakers, 1979-1990, X8 All-Defensive, X1 DPOY)

Sidney Moncrief (Bucks, Hawks, 1980-1991, X5 All-Defensive, X2 DPOY)

Fat Lever (Blazers, Nuggets, Mavs, 1983/1994, X1 All-Defensive)

Alvin Robertson (Spurs, Bucks, Pistons, Raptors, 1985/1996 X6 All-Defensive, X1 DPOY)

Joe Dumars (Pistons, 1986/1999, X5 All-Defensive)

Dan Majerle (Suns, Cavs, Heat, 1989/2002, X2 All-Defensive)

John Starks (Warriors, Knicks, Bulls, Jazz, 1989/2002, X1 All-Defensive)

Vernon Maxwell (Spurs, Rockets, 76ers, Magic, Hornets, Kings, SuperSonics, Mavs, 1989/2001)

Mitch Richmond (Warriors, Kings, Wizards, Lakers, 1989/2002)

Jaren Jackson Sr (Nets, Warriors, Clippers, Blazers, 76ers, Rockets, Bullets, Spurs, Magic, 1990/2002)

Nick Anderson (Magic, Kings, Grizzlies, 1990/2002)

Bobby Phills (Cavs, Hornets, 1992/2000, X1 All-Defensive)

Stacey Augmon (Hawks, Pistons, Blazers, Hornets, Magic, 1992/2006)

Latrell Sprewell (Warriors, Knicks, Timberwolves, 1993/2005, X1 All-Defensive)

Doug Christie (Lakers, Knicks, Raptors, Kings, Magic, Mavs, Clippers, 1993/2007, X4 All-Defensive)

Aaron Mckie (Blazers, Pistons, 76ers, Lakers, 1995/2007)

Eddie Jones (Lakers, Hornets, Heat, Grizzlies, Mavs, 1995/2008, X3 All-Defensive)

Kobe Bryant (Lakers, 1997/2016, X12 All-Defensive)

Raja Bell (76ers, Mavs, Jazz, Suns, Hornets, Warrios, 2001-2012, X2 All-Defensive)

Manu Ginobili (Spurs, 2003/2018)

Wade (Heat, Bulls, Cavs, 2004/2018, X3 All-Defensive)

Tony Allen (Celtics, Grizzlies, Pelicans, 2005/2018, X6 All-Defensive)

Thabo Sefolosha (Bulls, OKC, Atlanta, Utah, 2007/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Danny Green (Cavs, Spurs, 2010/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Avery Bradley (Celtics, Pistons, Clippers, 2011/2018, X2 All-Defensive)

Jimmy Butler (Bulls, Timberwolves, 2012/2018, X4 All-Defensive)

Klay Thompson (Warriors, 2012/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Victor Oladipo (Orlando, Okc, Indiana, 2014/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Marcus smart (Boston Celtics, 2015/2018)

Andre Roberson (OKC, 2015/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

What do you think about doing the top 10 defensive players of all time, regardless of position after the positions are up....

We could do it, but 10 are not a lot, like, in that case I would at least want to know where lebron and jordan would rank, a top 30 would be better in my opinion, but I don't know if I'd wanna do it, but I/we could do it, it doesn't take much time.
Another thing is that some people like to push famous/their favourite players, I wouldn't like to see legendary defensive bigs under guards who can't compare