1989 Jordan vs 2012 LeBron. Better player/season?

[1993Playoffs]

Why do ppl put the success against MJ?

If MJ didnt totally dominate the 90s and have 2 threepeats and literally had the monopoly on finals mvp when he was playing...then you may see him not retire early and play for more seasons chasing rings.

So chasing rings and chasing someone's legacy is equated to being higher than someone that actually set the benchmark?

Longevity is definatley a bonus, but when it comes to the tag as GOAT...imo it should have less bearing vs let's say the successes u achieved.

In an alternate universe where Lebron actually surpassed MJ in rings and individual post season successes early on his career....what would motivate Lebron to keep going and putting in 100% in offseasons approaching his mid 30s?

What do you think about this particular comparison though? Is it close in your opinion?

[mysticOscar]

Why do ppl put the success against MJ?

If MJ didnt totally dominate the 90s and have 2 threepeats and literally had the monopoly on finals mvp when he was playing...then you may see him not retire early and play for more seasons chasing rings.

So chasing rings and chasing someone's legacy is equated to being higher than someone that actually set the benchmark?

Longevity is definatley a bonus, but when it comes to the tag as GOAT...imo it should have less bearing vs let's say the successes u achieved.

In an alternate universe where Lebron actually surpassed MJ in rings and individual post season successes early on his career....what would motivate Lebron to keep going and putting in 100% in offseasons approaching his mid 30s?

What do you think about this particular comparison though? Is it close in your opinion?

It is very close. At this point LBJs experience and championship accomplishment is hard to pass up.

But In individual skills and athleticdm MJ was almost at his peak. He literally could do it all.

From a GOAT ranking then 2012 LBJ definatley carries more weight, no question about that.

From an individual 'whose a better player'....its harder to say, since it's harder to base what your criteria is. From what happened before and certainly after that year we know MJ can thrive off ball, better fundamentals and footwork in the post...and has a more consistent jumpshot. He was just a more reliable scorer.

I just think overall MJ was a better player and I believe at this point '89 from an individual ability MJ was already superior. But this is all my opinion....I can see circumstances where 2012 LBJs advantages in certain ability would better

[Joao Saraiva]

Came here for a brief read and I'm actually not surprised. Jordan fans/LeBron haters get ultra defensive and talk about MJ like he never missed one shot.

I asked what type of team would look like the 18 Warriors in the 90s in another thread. Stuff like Hakeem/Robinson/Price/Reggie keeps getting in there. It resembles no real team Jordan ever played, but somehow LeBron can't get to MJ because he wasn't more successfull. Throw MJ on last years' Cavs and let me see him winning that NBA championship. Good luck.

In the end all the evidence supports the comparison is really close - peak, prime and even longevity is not at least yet something that goes LeBron's way with such a big gap that can't be compensated. Anyone who thinks MJ, KAJ or LeBron aren't in the same tier is actually delusional.

[Drylick]

Would you guys agree that LeBron was a more impactful defender? With his prime motor and ability to defend multiple positions is very valuable

LeBron aint defending 4s in the 80s. In today's game, yes, but back then, his impact would be reduced greatly. So no, he is not a more impactful defender than Jordan.

[Drylick]

1989-1991 Michael Jordan played the highest level of basketball that has been seen. Bar none.

[tondi123]

Would you guys agree that LeBron was a more impactful defender? With his prime motor and ability to defend multiple positions is very valuable

LeBron aint defending 4s in the 80s. In today's game, yes, but back then, his impact would be reduced greatly. So no, he is not a more impactful defender than Jordan.

Nor would he stroll to the basket and bully anyone who got in his way. He would have gotten knocked on his ass just like MJ, who would then get up and go to the rim even harder the next time. Anybody who thinks Lebron wouldn't have been camped out on the perimeter hoisting jumpers back then is delusional.

[thebigbird]

Would you guys agree that LeBron was a more impactful defender? With his prime motor and ability to defend multiple positions is very valuable

LeBron aint defending 4s in the 80s. In today's game, yes, but back then, his impact would be reduced greatly. So no, he is not a more impactful defender than Jordan.

Nor would he stroll to the basket and bully anyone who got in his way. He would have gotten knocked on his ass just like MJ, who would then get up and go to the rim even harder the next time. Anybody who thinks Lebron wouldn't have been camped out on the perimeter hoisting jumpers back then is delusional.

This meme is so overplayed. There's clip after clip of Jordan strolling to the hoop without anyone touching him. The "physical 80s defense" is a complete myth. You think a guy 2 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier would've had trouble with the physicality Jordan was just fine against?

[Sublime187]

Would you guys agree that LeBron was a more impactful defender? With his prime motor and ability to defend multiple positions is very valuable

LeBron aint defending 4s in the 80s. In today's game, yes, but back then, his impact would be reduced greatly. So no, he is not a more impactful defender than Jordan.

Nor would he stroll to the basket and bully anyone who got in his way. He would have gotten knocked on his ass just like MJ, who would then get up and go to the rim even harder the next time. Anybody who thinks Lebron wouldn't have been camped out on the perimeter hoisting jumpers back then is delusional.

I don't understand what 80s games people were watching but physical play was few and far between. And defenses are far advanced today in comparison to the 80s.

[Jaqua92]

Obviously more players will score 20+ ppg in a 30 team league of today as opposed to the 8 team league of the late 50's. 25 is less extreme, but still worth noting.

You stated "less gaudy statlines than we see today"... But we don't see more gaudy statlines today... Assists as an example... 5 players averaged 8+ assists in '18 (currently 6 in '19), MJ was 10th in '89 with 8 apg in '89. The evidence seems to be in direct contradiction to your position.

How many of those guys had the same kind of volume/efficiency combination? Jordan’s production/efficiency combination was way more of an outlier for top tier perimeter than it is today.

Jordan scored 32.5 ppg 61.4 ts% 53.8 fg% with barely taking any 3s. If he came up in the league today and practiced habitually at 3 pointers I don’t see why he wouldn’t exceed his scoring efficiency from his own time.

It's not just the space - the more important factor IMO is that the rules have been changed multiple times over the last 20 years to make perimeter offense easier. It's not just making offense easier in general - the rule changes have specifically aimed to make it easier for star players on the perimeter.

No perimeter players put up stats like MJ back when he played... it's quite telling that it's taken several rule changes over the years to get other star players anywhere near his production

This. But people want to intellectualize opinions with analytics

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Jaqua92]

On the contrary, defenses are much better today than they were in the 80's and early 90's.

It is equivocally NOT more difficult for star players to both score and to rack up numbers across the board than it was in, say, 1992 or 1997. Anyone who watches today's game can see that, and can see the wide open lanes, lack of physicality and rim protection, and ease of movement even in the postseason and Finals last year (when defense should be at its apex).

I challenge anyone to find me a single play from Lebron in the past two seasons where he has had to make as many moves/counters and had to beat as many defenders as Jordan had to beat on this single isolated play from the 1991 Finals at the 1:25 mark:

Watch on YouTube

Good luck.

Watch on YouTube

It took me about 30 seconds

In no way does Lebron have to counter the defense the same way Jordan did. He goes through two defenders, and then drives strait to the hoop by players trying to not foul him.

He asked to find a play in which Lebron is forced to counter defense and adjust. This isn't one, dude.

Jordan shakes the on ball defender, then crosses over out of the double team, and then up fakes to break up what appears to be an oncoming triple team.

He is right. Sophisticated defenses don't matter when you cant touch perimeter players, and players are deliberately conscious of not doing something to get w call. Westbrook averaged back to back triple doubles in todays game of sophisticated defense.

Who cares about the scapegoated sophisticated defense which is better to stop a player when someone like Jordan was being swarmed like bees lol

The play you posted isnt even close to similar defense.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Jaqua92]

Came here for a brief read and I'm actually not surprised. Jordan fans/LeBron haters get ultra defensive and talk about MJ like he never missed one shot.

I asked what type of team would look like the 18 Warriors in the 90s in another thread. Stuff like Hakeem/Robinson/Price/Reggie keeps getting in there. It resembles no real team Jordan ever played, but somehow LeBron can't get to MJ because he wasn't more successfull. Throw MJ on last years' Cavs and let me see him winning that NBA championship. Good luck.

In the end all the evidence supports the comparison is really close - peak, prime and even longevity is not at least yet something that goes LeBron's way with such a big gap that can't be compensated. Anyone who thinks MJ, KAJ or LeBron aren't in the same tier is actually delusional.

No. Working in the mental health field, I can tell you that this does not make someone "actually delusional" lol

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk