2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Dr Spaceman]

James Harden’s last 8 games:

38.5/6.0/8.5 on 45/39/89 with 2.3 steals against 4.0 TOV in 38.5 minutes. Rockets are 7-1.

[Colbinii]

James Harden’s last 8 games:

38.5/6.0/8.5 on 45/39/89 with 2.3 steals against 4.0 TOV in 38.5 minutes. Rockets are 7-1.

Someone in the MVP thread on the GB thread had an opinion of Paul George being Western Conference POTM. I quickly shot that down with Harden's numbers for December. He is playing on an absolutely ridiculous level right now.

[The-Power]

I've tried to compile relatively broad lists of potential candidates for the MIP, 6th Man and DPOY awards (in no order). Please let me know who I've missed, or who else should be on my radar.

MIP

Domantas Sabonis
Nikola Vucevic
Derrick Rose
Spencer Dinwiddie
Paul George
Juan Hernangomez
Pascal Siakam
Noah Vonleh

6th Man

Derrick Rose
Domantas Sabonis
Lou Williams
Spencer Dinwiddie
JJ Barea
Monrezl Harrell
Marcus Morris

DPOY

Robert Covington
Paul George
Rudy Gobert
Joel Embiid
Anthony Davis
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Myles Turner
Steven Adams

[bondom34]

James Harden’s last 8 games:

38.5/6.0/8.5 on 45/39/89 with 2.3 steals against 4.0 TOV in 38.5 minutes. Rockets are 7-1.

Someone in the MVP thread on the GB thread had an opinion of Paul George being Western Conference POTM. I quickly shot that down with Harden's numbers for December. He is playing on an absolutely ridiculous level right now.

I don't think either is a bad choice at the moment. George leading in APM numbers at the moment (though I'd still wait another few weeks til I really would use them at least). His offensive numbers aren't as good but he's the best defender on the 2nd best defense in the NBA.

Also I know he won't get votes but I'd still toss TJ Warren in MIP talks as a 2nd or 3rd place vote.

[Colbinii]

I've tried to compile relatively broad lists of potential candidates for the MIP, 6th Man and DPOY awards (in no order). Please let me know who I've missed, or who else should be on my radar.

MIP

Domantas Sabonis
Nikola Vucevic
Derrick Rose
Spencer Dinwiddie
Paul George
Juan Hernangomez
Pascal Siakam
Noah Vonleh

6th Man

Derrick Rose
Domantas Sabonis
Lou Williams
Spencer Dinwiddie
JJ Barea
Monrezl Harrell
Marcus Morris

DPOY

Robert Covington
Paul George
Rudy Gobert
Joel Embiid
Anthony Davis
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Myles Turner
Steven Adams

I am glad Derrick Rose is getting recognition for MIP this season. The way he has transformed his game is remarkable.

Although the improvement for George is remarkable [Improving from a top 20 player to arguably top 5 is difficult, especially given the amount of top end, all-time great talent currently in the league], I don't believe he should be in the MIP voting.

I'm not considering Turner or Adams for DPOY, but I agree with the rest of the list.

[eminence]

Probably not quite 6th man material, but I've been quite happy with Crowder off the bench for the Jazz.

Wouldn't say Davis deserves any serious DPOY consideration to date, Embiid either, it's looking like Covington was the core of that defense. I'd put Marc in the conversation.

[The-Power]

I am glad Derrick Rose is getting recognition for MIP this season. The way he has transformed his game is remarkable.

Indeed it is. I've never really liked Rose but what he's doing this year deserves lots of praise and recognition.

Although the improvement for George is remarkable [Improving from a top 20 player to arguably top 5 is difficult, especially given the amount of top end, all-time great talent currently in the league], I don't believe he should be in the MIP voting.

Yeah, I guess it depends on how on interprets the award. Can top players be MIP? Do we value smaller improvements more when the players were already good/great? That said, if we extend the list to 8-10 people then I do believe George's name has to be on it. Even his relative improvement (without considering his previous level) has been remarkable.

I'm not considering Turner or Adams for DPOY, but I agree with the rest of the list.

I agree that they are probably not on top of the list. That said, I don't really see an obvious frontrunner yet and the race is wide open.

Adams is an important part of the best defense in the NBA. This is what I preliminarily included him, but it's very unlikely that I'll seriously consider him at the end. He's really solid but just not good enough defensively.

Turner has really turned it up defensively. 6th in shadow's DRAPM, 3rd in ESPN's RPM, and his on-court DRTG would rank 5th best in the NBA if it was the Pacers' team DRTG, and has the highest BLK% in the league (fwiw) while improving as a defensive rebounder at the individual level (although his team struggles a bit more with him on the court). Only plays 28 MPG but has only missed one game to date. I definitely believe he deserves a mention although I'd also not expect him to be in the running for DPOY eventually.

[The-Power]

Probably not quite 6th man material, but I've been quite happy with Crowder off the bench for the Jazz.

Wouldn't say Davis deserves any serious DPOY consideration to date, Embiid either, it's looking like Covington was the core of that defense. I'd put Marc in the conversation.

Yeah, I can definitely see that. But this year is a bit difficult for me because it seems like there are just a bunch of good, positive impact defenders without some obvious stand-outs. If you try to make a list of 10 people, you'll quickly get to players who you feel like they're not deserving but still in that range. It's the way the NBA is going, I suppose. Unless you're really good a both interior as well as perimeter defense, able to get involved in many defensive possession and capable of playing starter minutes, you're not going to look at elite as previous DPOY. A fully-engaged Draymond seems to be the blueprint for future DPOY-candidates imo – but players of this archetype are only slowly entering the league, catching up to the modern NBA with some delay (JJJ is my next great hope in this regard even though he's different from Green, and Giannis also has the tools to be a DPOY-level player in this mold). We have a number of notable interior and perimeter defenders in today's league, but the combination of both is extremely rare at this point and it is this very combination that is becoming more and more necessary to be a truly elite defensive player across a variety of settings.

With Embiid, I might have just been blinded a bit by on/off numbers. Covington has been good for them but he's not had a crazy imprint on the 76ers defense this year either, they aren't really that much worse without him (weren't good with him either). Embiid has great impact in some settings, but he also struggles to defend outside the paint more than you'd hope and expect from a DPOY. Regarding Davis, I might have overrated him a bit because he started this year strong defensively – but it looks like he's been coasting a bit more recently. Still, him and Jrue are keeping the Pelicans' defense from totally plummeting and I'm not sure the league has more than a handful more impactful defenders this year once we factor in playing time (on a per-minute basis, I'd probably be able to find a number of more impactful players as well).

Gasol is a solid mention but not much different from the others. He also has situations in which he's just not an effective defender and, in my eyes, that hurts his ranking even if the overall impact is still solidly positive. He feels like a classic ‘well, his team is quite good defensively and he's a notable part of it, so let's give him some props’ pick. Individually, I'm not sure he's been deserving of DPOY recognition. He just plays with a bunch of positive defenders (shout-out to JJJ, impressive for a Rookie) in a system that emphasizes extremely slow and team-oriented basketball with a cohesive starting five, which certainly helps him on defense. But he's not a standout. Looking at DRAPM, for instance, Gasol (15th) ranks right alongside some of his fellow starting teammates (Conley 17th, Temple 7th, Jackson 5th). I believe Gasol deserves props for his role, but a lot has to do with his leadership rather than his own individual impact (which, as I wrote, is positive but not really jumping out imo).

[HeartBreakKid]

Probably not quite 6th man material, but I've been quite happy with Crowder off the bench for the Jazz.

Wouldn't say Davis deserves any serious DPOY consideration to date, Embiid either, it's looking like Covington was the core of that defense. I'd put Marc in the conversation.

Yeah, I can definitely see that. But this year is a bit difficult for me because it seems like there are just a bunch of good, positive impact defenders without some obvious stand-outs. If you try to make a list of 10 people, you'll quickly get to players who you feel like they're not deserving but still in that range. It's the way the NBA is going, I suppose. Unless you're really good a both interior as well as perimeter defense, able to get involved in many defensive possession and capable of playing starter minutes, you're not going to look at elite as previous DPOY. A fully-engaged Draymond seems to be the blueprint for future DPOY-candidates imo – but players of this archetype are only slowly entering the league, catching up to the modern NBA with some delay (JJJ is my next great hope in this regard even though he's different from Green, and Giannis also has the tools to be a DPOY-level player in this mold). We have a number of notable interior and perimeter defenders in today's league, but the combination of both is extremely rare at this point and it is this very combination that is becoming more and more necessary to be a truly elite defensive player across a variety of settings.

With Embiid, I might have just been blinded a bit by on/off numbers. Covington has been good for them but he's not had a crazy imprint on the 76ers defense this year either, they aren't really that much worse without him (weren't good with him either). Embiid has great impact in some settings, but he also struggles to defend outside the paint more than you'd hope and expect from a DPOY. Regarding Davis, I might have overrated him a bit because he started this year strong defensively – but it looks like he's been coasting a bit more recently. Still, him and Jrue are keeping the Pelicans' defense from totally plummeting and I'm not sure the league has more than a handful more impactful defenders this year once we factor in playing time (on a per-minute basis, I'd probably be able to find a number of more impactful players as well).

Gasol is a solid mention but not much different from the others. He also has situations in which he's just not an effective defender and, in my eyes, that hurts his ranking even if the overall impact is still solidly positive. He feels like a classic ‘well, his team is quite good defensively and he's a notable part of it, so let's give him some props’ pick. Individually, I'm not sure he's been deserving of DPOY recognition. He just plays with a bunch of positive defenders (shout-out to JJJ, impressive for a Rookie) in a system that emphasizes extremely slow and team-oriented basketball with a cohesive starting five, which certainly helps him on defense. But he's not a standout. Looking at DRAPM, for instance, Gasol (15th) ranks right alongside some of his fellow starting teammates (Conley 17th, Temple 7th, Jackson 5th). I believe Gasol deserves props for his role, but a lot has to do with his leadership rather than his own individual impact (which, as I wrote, is positive but not really jumping out imo).

I don't know - last year Rudy Gobert won DPOY and he was a stand out, and not really an elite exterior defender.

It's early in the season and there hasn't been any separation yet - last year was the same story at this point of the season.

[ShotCreator]

Harden is my POY so far. More interesting is who comes 2nd and it's between Jokic and Davis for me. George has played at the level to warrant the talk but I've seen this since 2014. George isn't this good.

[bondom34]

If that's the argument, it's only player of the year for this year. George should absolutely be mentioned until he falls off (assuming he does). Harden's been great, but hasn't been the two way guy George has. I'd have Giannis at 1.

[HeartBreakKid]

This is going to be a really boring pick, but the way the season is shaping up

LBJ is going to be POY again

[Dupp]

James Harden’s last 8 games:

38.5/6.0/8.5 on 45/39/89 with 2.3 steals against 4.0 TOV in 38.5 minutes. Rockets are 7-1.

Dude is bananas

[The-Power]

I don't know - last year Rudy Gobert won DPOY and he was a stand out, and not really an elite exterior defender.

True, but even he struggled against Houston's playing style in the playoffs. Gobert is the best interior defender in the NBA by a healthy margin, so he's naturally one of the best defenders in the NBA (and perhaps the best). And yet he'll have games where he'll struggle to impact the game defensively because some teams/players can make use of his weak areas much more effectively than teams in the past could – and among the rim protectors, Gobert is one of the better ones at defending away from the rim. I guess that's my point. Until we see more big players who can defend at the rim and the perimeter, I doubt we'll see defenders as dominant defensively – at least not as reliably dominant – as we were used to see in the 90's or 00's. The next wave is coming, but it might take a couple of years until the development of defenders matches the state of modern NBA offenses.

[HeartBreakKid]

I don't know - last year Rudy Gobert won DPOY and he was a stand out, and not really an elite exterior defender.

True, but even he struggled against Houston's playing style in the playoffs. Gobert is the best interior defender in the NBA by a healthy margin, so he's naturally one of the best defenders in the NBA (and perhaps the best). And yet he'll have games where he'll struggle to impact the game defensively because some teams/players can make use of his weak areas much more effectively than teams in the past could – and among the rim protectors, Gobert is one of the better ones at defending away from the rim. I guess that's my point. Until we see more big players who can defend at the rim and the perimeter, I doubt we'll see defenders as dominant defensively – at least not as reliably dominant – as we were used to see in the 90's or 00's. The next wave is coming, but it might take a couple of years until the development of defenders matches the state of modern NBA offenses.

What defensive bigs could deal with the Houston Rockets offense? Not many centers can deal with that many isos against two top guards.

[The-Power]

I don't know - last year Rudy Gobert won DPOY and he was a stand out, and not really an elite exterior defender.

True, but even he struggled against Houston's playing style in the playoffs. Gobert is the best interior defender in the NBA by a healthy margin, so he's naturally one of the best defenders in the NBA (and perhaps the best). And yet he'll have games where he'll struggle to impact the game defensively because some teams/players can make use of his weak areas much more effectively than teams in the past could – and among the rim protectors, Gobert is one of the better ones at defending away from the rim. I guess that's my point. Until we see more big players who can defend at the rim and the perimeter, I doubt we'll see defenders as dominant defensively – at least not as reliably dominant – as we were used to see in the 90's or 00's. The next wave is coming, but it might take a couple of years until the development of defenders matches the state of modern NBA offenses.

What defensive bigs could deal with the Houston Rockets offense? Not many centers can deal with that many isos against two top guards.

Yeah, but that's the point. In order to be an elite defender in the future, you'll need to be able to do this somewhat effectively while providing help defense and rim protection. Most Centers can't deal with kind of offense and that's why that's going to be more of an emphasis in the future, I suppose. The strategies of isolating weak perimeter defenders on scoring guards, pulling bigs away from the rim and switching defense aren't going to go away anytime soon.

Those big men who can adjust to this environment will be the dominant defenders of tommorrow. I said Draymond is kind of the blueprint, but Jackson (perhaps) and Giannis also fit the mold, as does Isaac perhaps if he ever gets strong enough. Perhaps Zion can be his own unique version of an elite defender who provides defense in all those areas as well. We had Garnett in the past, and I'm sure more players in this mold will follow. There just aren't many of those in their prime in the league right now.

[ardee]

Good lord Harden is murdering it. 41 ppg on 64% TS in his last 8 games. Rockets are 7-1 and up to the 7th seed, a game off 4th.

MVP repeat campaign in full swing. Only 3 games off the first seed! That turnaround was quick.

[ShotCreator]

I really want to be convinced Giannis' game tilt is elite on either end of the floor at this point. I'm sure he's not close to being tier 1 offensive player(Harden, Curry, prime LeBron). Unless he's generational defensively I'm pretty sure he's still marginally better than last year as a guy floating around top 7-12 as a player in the league. The offense went as Middleton went last year, and now there's improved Bledsoe and Brogdon to make them better, and people are inclined to believe Giannis is doing a lot of carrying and that his slashing game can be compared to a Harden or LeBron. Not a chance.

[Dr Spaceman]

If that's the argument, it's only player of the year for this year. George should absolutely be mentioned until he falls off (assuming he does). Harden's been great, but hasn't been the two way guy George has. I'd have Giannis at 1.

George is several tiers below as an offensive player. It’s not inconceivable the offensive gap is bigger than the defensive one.

[bondom34]

If that's the argument, it's only player of the year for this year. George should absolutely be mentioned until he falls off (assuming he does). Harden's been great, but hasn't been the two way guy George has. I'd have Giannis at 1.

George is several tiers below as an offensive player. It’s not inconceivable the offensive gap is bigger than the defensive one.

Inconceivable no, but APM has his defense that far ahead. As amazing as Harden's been his defense has been poor, and on a bad defensive team.